Latency compensator plug question

[Jesse Skeens]

So does this plug move the track back in time or forward? In other words do I insert it on the track that is latent or do I put it on all tracks not going through said latency (which is how the UAD one worked)

Also anyone here use Pristine Space convo-verb? You can get the latency down to about 1.5 sec I belive so it might be a better choice than SIR if this latency plug is a hassle.

Jesse

[MMP]

One instance on any track does the magic move.

MM

[Jesse Skeens]

Great, sounds simple.

[Carl G.]

Still trying to figure out the SIR thing.
I would only need to plug the Latency plug into the track that has SIR plug into it, right?

[AudioAstronomer]

Pristine space has a zero latency mode now btw.

[TotalSonic]

Pristine space has a zero latency mode now btw.

Robert -
This might have changed - but from my understanding doesn't it achieve this through cheating some of the calculations? If so, for a lot of things this won't be a noticeable effect - but I believe it's best to use this setting for preview while mixing and then build the mix using the 64 sample fixed latency with the Latency Comp set for this.

The Revolverb Lite freeware also is designed for zero latency - but it definitely doesn't give you the parameter control that even SIR has. Seems like Pristine Space has options that even the pricy Waves IR-1 doesn't though. Voxengo has definitely put out some good stuff - I just never liked the gui's though - but sound has always been way more important to me than looks.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

Robert -
This might have changed - but from my understanding doesn't it achieve this through cheating some of the calculations? If so, for a lot of things this won't be a noticeable effect - but I believe it's best to use this setting for preview while mixing and then build the mix using the 64 sample fixed latency with the Latency Comp set for this.

The Revolverb Lite freeware also is designed for zero latency - but it definitely doesn't give you the parameter control that even SIR has. Seems like Pristine Space has options that even the pricy Waves IR-1 doesn't though. Voxengo has definitely put out some good stuff - I just never liked the gui's though - but sound has always been way more important to me than looks.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

This is true with pristine space. I am an avid voxengo user myself, even broke my "oath" of no VST/DX because I couldnt live without some of my voxengo plug-ins. I find with a well-suited impulse, the parameter control becomes much less valuable.

[Jesse Skeens]

It doesn't matter which track it is on...its function is global.

MM

Could you elaborate?

[Bob L]

Michael,

My understanding is that Jon's plug holds back data on the track that it is plugged into... I don't know how it would have global control...

Did I mis-understand your comment?

I believe you patch his latency compensator into any track that has a latency producing plugin like many of the FIR equalizers or the DSP based UA stuff... then his plug actually uses my API features to soak up the first x number of samples to companesate for the delay because SAWStudio actually allows him to take buffers and not return them until he is ready... which allows him to skip the first x number of samples which are causing the latency in the troublesome plugin.

Bob L

[Carlos Mills]

Carl,

Still trying to figure out the SIR thing.
I would only need to plug the Latency plug into the track that has SIR plug into it, right?

Yes, that is right. But don't forget to insert, in JMS's plug in, the amount of samples to be "compensated": 8960 for SIR.

[MMP]

My bad....I misunderstood something Jon had posted.
You do need to plug in on the track you need to compensate.

Sorry for the misinformation.

MM




My understanding is that Jon's plug holds back data on the track that it is plugged into... I don't know how it would have global control...

[Jon Stoll]

There's something here that I'm not quite understanding. If I were to use SIR on one track compesated for @ 8960 samples, and then also had a UA-1 compressor on another track (forgot the compensation value for that), would I have to set the (different) compesation on that track and would the whole project be synced with the other tracks that have no compesation plug-in? My present feeling is that that is correct, but I'm not sure.

Regards,
Jon Stoll

[Bob L]

Yes, the compensator simply acts as if you slid the track that is being delayed by the plugin process to the left in sync with the other tracks.

In reality, you could simply do that yourself and manually adjust the delayed track to the left so the processing latency is compensated for without the need for the compensator plug.

Jon's plug is handy because it adjusts by exact sample counts without the need for zooming in and lining things up yourself.

Bob L

[thenumber]

hey! first post here

just a demo user here, checking out my options. with the latency compensation issue, how would I go about determining how much latency a given set of plugins has? Waves, for instance. Is there a meter like in ProTools? I'm really used to Nuendo, so the latency stuff hasnt been a thing for me and im not sure how to check

thanks!

[Jesse Skeens]

Well I tried another test with the UAD. Took a track and copied it to the next available. Inserted a UAD plug on the second and compared. From what I can tell its automatically calculated as I hear no phasing at all.

Jesse

[TotalSonic]

hey! first post here

just a demo user here, checking out my options. with the latency compensation issue, how would I go about determining how much latency a given set of plugins has? Waves, for instance. Is there a meter like in ProTools? I'm really used to Nuendo, so the latency stuff hasnt been a thing for me and im not sure how to check

thanks!

The vast majority of plugins - such as all the Waves or SAW native stuff - doesn't need latency compensation.

In SAW the only plugins that need latency compensation are the rare ones that have fixed latencies. An example of this is the awesome convolution reverb VST freeware plugin "SIR", which has a fixed latency of 8960 samples. Other examples would be the "powered" plugins in the UAD-1 or TC Powercore DSP cards (although I see that Jesse isn't seeing any latency from his UAD-1 plugins - so I'm not exactly sure what is happening there). But pretty much every other SAW native, DX, or VSTplugin - including ones that do real time buffer changes such as the Sony Time Expand/Compress DX or Virtos NR plugins - operates without any latency inside SAW.

To correct for latencies you just load a single instance of the JMS Latency Compensator plugins into the input or aux channel that you have the plugin that has fixed latency loaded into and enter the number of samples you want to compensate by. While this isn't actually "automatic" it takes only a second and the nice thing is that the JMS plug will remember the number you entered so you can choose it from a pop up list any time later. Usually the plugin manufacturer will let you know the fixed latency if it has one - and there's a nice latency calculator for the UAD-1 plugins that is freeware at http://www.noisetime.com/uad_dcc.html

Otherwise it's easy enough to do a simple initial test where you load a spike on an input track - process the track with the plugin that has fixed latency back to another track - and measure the distance using SAW's handy view where it will show you how many samples are in a marked area - and then enter this number. I've never found it necessary to do this as most plugin makers are pretty good about documentation.

SAW also has a very cool feature where you can send out to external hardware via one of its 6 virtual Aux sends and then come back via an Aux Return - and the latency of this da/ad loopback will be automatically compensated for so that the returned track will be perfectly in time without you having to think about it. You can then rout back to any input track from the Aux Return using the freeware JMS Buss Extension SAW plugin and record the results.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Jesse Skeens]

On that aux loop back thing does Saw also comenstate the latency of the AD/DA itself? Or is it just comepensating for the buffer settings?

And yes I still dont know what Im doing "wrong" thats causing me not to get latecny on my UAD.

Jesse

[Bob L]

Just the buffers... it actually outputs the aux send data a few buffers early so that the MT data and the returned buffers arrive at the same time to be summed into the mix... very interesting feature.

Bob L

[Jesse Skeens]

Yes great feature, another thing that gives it a live console feel.

Bob do you have any idea why I am not experiencing delay when using a UAD on one channel and none on the other (playing back the same wave data)?

Jesse

[Bob L]

Perhaps not all UAD plugs generate delay at all settings.

I don't know... I don't use them... I have collected a nice set of plugins that do all the stuff I usually have need for without any latency delay.

Bob L

[Jesse Skeens]

Well as long as the UAD plugs report their delay Saw with compensate right?
This seems like whats happening here. I'm not complaining for sure.

Jesse

[Bob L]

Jesse,

SAWStudio does no automatic compensation for inline plugins, whether they report delay or not... you can manually compensate by simply sliding track data backwards, or by using Jon's plugin.

Now... how about getting back to the music and put the latency thing aside for a while... you'll find its a lot of fun. :)

Bob L

[Jesse Skeens]

Hehe, yea I was waiting for you to say that :)

Just been putting Saw through its paces so I know what to expect
when I'm in the middle of trying to be creative. Better to analyze
it now than when I'm in the moment.

Jesse

[AudioAstronomer]

UAD-1 plugins experience a delay of 2xbuffer. How this works in saw I dont know. In fact as I understand it with AUX sends, it maybe entirely possible for uad-1 plugs to have no latency!?

I dont know, i sold my last uad-1/powercore (between nuendo/samplitude at one point i had 4 uad-1 and 3 powercore) when i decided on buy sawstudio. Sawstudio + voxengo ... nothing else required. and the voxengo plugs that exhibit a delay (curveEQ, elephant) only go on the master anyways when the project is finished.....

Jesse, I personally highly recommend getting rid of the uad-1 and using sawstudio's offerings. When you're not after pristine eq and compression, and want something to really SMASH a signal (saws compressor does this quite well, but gotta set it differently than youd be used to) or fuzz it up, or wash it in huge reverbs.....

www.sonalksis.com
www.voxengo.com
www.elementalaudio.com

They will serve every last need you could have, and do it with a smile and support you're used to after experiencing rml lab's kickass support and documentation.

[Jesse Skeens]

Robert,

Thanks for the info. I did have a UAD the day they came out and sold it when I got some real hardware. Ended up trimming down some of the hardware stuff so then I picked up a cheap UAD again.

I use the voxengo stuff and some PSP as well. I would get rid of the uad but so far my vocalist loves what it does to her voice, especially the mod/dist effects. I do have a dsp4000 for that stuff but the uad makes it easy to insert right away. The pultec is nice too, especially for the low end. Then again I have been really impressed with the low end I can get with the Saw native eq as well as the JMS HiRes eq so maybe the Pultec isnt so necessary. That leaves me with the compressors. The 1176 and La2a are really nice. The Creamware comp is amazing though, its as good or better than my Blue dbx 160SL (the mastering quality one) so I sold it.

Anyways deffinatly food for thought. If I sell the UAD that can pay for SawBasic (for now) as well as a few plugs like HiRes.

I'll have to do some more testing and make up my mind. Initially I thought the low end on the Pultec was worth the price of the card on its own but now I'm getting as good results without it. Theres a new eq for Creamware called ISON thats amazing sounding too so thats another option. Good thing about the Creamware stuff is that there is no latency with it at all so I might route stuff unto the CW mixer and use their comps/eq to replace what the UAD is doing.

That leaves the void of the nice preflex dist/mod effects in UAD. I have noticed though that although they sound nice they make the sound smaller. I'm just nervous a bit since my singer has been so into how they have made her sound. But I think I could get the same effect with other plugs/outboard (like the Eventide or my numerous ElectroHarm pedals)

Jesse