Fader delay and

[Carl Mateo]

Hi,

I am using SawstudioBasic Demo and there is a significant sound reaction delay when putting a fader up or down. I also have frozen or crashed when using a couple of third party plugins. I do not have the same problem with faders or the same plug in in Cubase SX.(demo)

I really like Sawstudio. It sounds great, I can envision getting my projects done in this app. i am really jazzed about it but I have had a few problems like this with the demo which i haven't had with some other programs I have tried.

I am just moving to PC recording from a standalone and my computer is not optimised for recording but seems to be doing ok.

I have a Dell Dimension 2400 Pentium P4. It was not purchase for recording but it is what I am going to use for now.

My soundcard is an E-Mu 1212.

Besides the issues above, do you think i can get started with Sawstudiobasic on this system and get some work done?

best,
Carl

[Jesse Skeens]

I've had a couple of crashes on my laptop when using psp plugs. Havent had that problem on the desktop so far.

What are your buffer sizes set to as these will affect the delay of the fader movements and when you hear the change.

Jesse

[Pedro Itriago]

Fader delays could mean too many buffers and/or buffer size too large. Try experimenting with the settings in your machine and see how low can you get. Don't know that particular card you're using so I don't know which driver model you could be using. If you can, try testing between asio (the one I think you're using now) and MME and see how it goes

[AudioAstronomer]

All Software will experience that delay. The difference with sawstudio is, you can get buffers amazingly lower than other programs with better performance. Also, any plugins added on the output or that certain track with a delay will cause this as well. this includes most look-ahead limiters, compressors, convolution reverbs and linear-phase or minimum-phase eq's.

One of the main things I love about sawstudio is the feel is SO much more instant than anything else out there, and the extremely low latencies I can get on huge projects is way way ahead of its time.

[Jesse Skeens]

Part of it too is that the included eq and comp sounds great. Better to use integrated eq/comp than loading a bunch of plugs. Thats where performance and sound degradation can happen. The fact that SAW does it all natively is very nice.

[Bob L]

You should experience no real troublesome delay when moving faders and pressing mutes and solos if your buffers are set even up around 4 x 1024... of course lower is better.

To do live input monitoring or VSTi Synth live performances, then you will need to reach the very low buffer settings below 256.

Bob L

[Carl Mateo]

Hi,

I started trying different buffer and sample settings. What i discovered is that even using the default settings that when i reopened the audio device window to change the buffer setting, the sample setting is now at 2200 in shaded grey and unchangeable until I close and re-open the program. It has changed on its own and locked in. I can still change the buffer setting if I want.

What's up?

Thanks'
Carl

Disclaimer; i alway's assume that the answer to my questions has something to do with my limited knowledge of PC recording or from inadequacies in the configuration of my system or the system itself... Thanks for your patience. I love the set up and workflow, as well as the sound with Sawstudio and just want to know i can get it functioning properly before I purchase it for myself.
I actually have been having Sawstudio dreams, only I am a much better engineer in those ;)

[Carl G.]

Try doing the fades without the plugs... especially timed delayed ones.
Native plugs all work well.
After taking the first leap to the full SawStudio... I can't see why anyone who is making money (any kind of money) would want anything less when others are paying for you! :)
Carl G.

[Bob L]

Sounds like you are running ASIO drivers.

ASIO drivers control the buffer size, not SAW... so you must use the ASIO Control Panel option in the Driver Model menu if that is the case... set the ASIO driver buffer size, then SAW will follow.

If all this is not the case, and the driver is forcing 2200 ASIO buffers on the program and will not let you change them... time to get a new soundcard. :)

Bob L

[Carl Mateo]

Hi Bob, and thanks to all of you who have replied here.

Yes, I am using ASIO drivers. Only now the # of samples is being locked in at 88 instead of 2200. I have tried various settings and back to the default (4/1024 6/1024) The faders are working fine but i have a nasty distortion on playback about 50% of the time. I have not had either issue in other programs I have been trying.

"you must use the ASIO Control Panel option in the Driver Model menu if that is the case... set the ASIO driver buffer size, then SAW will follow."

Do you mean in Saw... Options /Audio Driver Model/Asio Driver Setup... Nothing happens at all when I click on Asio Driver Setup unless it is a behind the scenes kind of action?

I think my soundcard(E-MU 1212) sounds great, very rich and natural sound).
However it is a new product and perhaps not compatible somehow? I am still operating under the assumption that I am missing something here and that Saw is not the culprit.

Dell Dimension
P4 (R) 2.20 GZ
256 MB Ram
E-MU 1212 Soundcard

I know I need to up the memory but I am only recording a few tracks with very little plug ins and it has seemed fine for now.(?)

Any thoughts are welcome,
Carl

PS. i went back to Cubase SX2 because it is working fine but it does not sound as good as SawStudioBasic and I do not like it as much so I am determined to move ahead with Sawstudio one way or another.

Best

[Jesse Skeens]

Carl,

Choose another driver other than ASIO. Then go to your control panel outside of Saw and change the buffer. Then reselect the ASIO driver in Saw and test. Repeat until you have a setting that works. The reason why you need to deselect the ASIO driver in Saw when you are changing the buffer size is that most soundcards dont like you accessing the driver in two places at once. So if Saw has the driver active you wont be able to change it in the control panel outside of Saw.

I have to do the same thing with my Creamware card as its buffer setting resides in their own mixigin environment not a control panel app.

Jesse

[Bob L]

With ASIO the buffer size setting always resides in the driver code... which is part of why ASIO is not my favorite design. :)

If the driver is not happy with SAWStudios control panel function access... I am using a standard ASIO function call... then simply get out of SAW... then open the driver applet directly... change the buffer size down to a small size... if you can set it to even powers of 2... for instance... 64, or 128 or 256 or 512... etc. then do so.

Then restart SAWStudio and select the ASIO model... SAWStudio should match the buffer size you set in the driver.

If it does not, I have not seen this behavior before and would have to look further into it with this particualr driver.

Bob L

[Carl Mateo]

HI,

Thanks for the replies, Bob and Jesse!

I switched out of the ASIO driver and eliminated some problems and discovered some more but that's another thread ...

I couldn't manage to access the ASIO Driver Control Panel so I contacted E-MU support (took a day or two)and this was their reply:

"The ASIO control panel is accessed from the system properties of the
host app. For example in Cubase you would go to the Audio System window
and click on the ASIO control panel button which would open up E-MU's
ASIO control Panel. This is the same for Cakewalk, Sonar, Nuendo, FL
Studio, WaveLab, etc.

It should be the same in SAW since it is universal and not specific to
E-MU's ASIO driver. Consult with Saw tech support on how to access the
ASIO control panel.



Regards;
E-MU Systems Inc.
Technical support
831-438-1921 xt.4"

Any Ideas?

Carl

[Jesse Skeens]

You sure there is no control panel app you can access in windows?

If not then load another DAW and try accessing it from there using the ASIO control panel function in that particular program. Since the setting is global then Saw should see it.

Jesse

[Bob L]

The ASIO control panel is accessed from SAWStudio in the Options Menu... Audio Driver Model... You will see Asio Driver Setup as an option.

This option is active once you are using the ASIO driver model... so switch to ASIO first, then go back to use this option which should popup the ASIO control panel for the driver.

Bob L

[Carl Mateo]

"You sure there is no control panel app you can access in windows?"

I have tried and I haven't found it.

"If not then load another DAW and try accessing it from there using the ASIO control panel function in that particular program. Since the setting is global then Saw should see it."

I just tried this again. Using Cubase SX I can access the E-MU ASIO control panel which allows me to change the latency. This then corresponds to a buffer sample change in SAW. I have not found a setting that works. 60 ms latency equates to 1760 buffer samples in saw. It does not change the # of buffers. That I can do in saw. i have tried from 5 ms latency and up to 60 so far and still having problems in SawStudioBasic. I was able to record a few (7) tracks in WDM yesterday. Cruising along, no problems, lots of fun and a new tune to boot. Then with playback... tracks dropped in and out, freezing up. I was using Sir on a few tracks so I cut that back to none and I am still having problems . Using the ASIO driver , with no Sir only Native plugs, eq and compression I am still getting intermittent distortion on playback.

Frustrating thing is that I do hear a difference in the sound in Saw. The low end definitely seems richer and the detail is very natural. This is with acoustic guitar. However the Cubase SX demo worked flawlessly with 8 tracks and sounds great. Not as rich as Saw but cool none the less .

I am going to keep experimenting but Saw has not been user friendly for my fledgling system.

Thank you again. I really appreciate you help, Jesse as well as your other posts on Saw.

Carl

[Carl Mateo]

hi Bob,

I have tried that a dozen times, I just tried it again and nothing happens when I click on ASIO Driver Setup... :confused:

Carl

[Bob L]

Well, I guess there is something about the way I make the function call that the driver does not like.

But... you are able to change it in one of your other apps or probably directly in the driver app itself... so, once changed it should remain in that condition and SAWStudio should see it when you activate ASIO as the driver model choice.

Unfortunately, the driver is using ms instead of buffer sample sizes... again... our current computers work by DWORD data moves... moving buffers of exact data sizes that are offshoots of powers of 2 are much more efficient... 64, 128, 256, etc... buffer sizes like 1760 are ineficiant when it comes time to deal with odd size data transfers like that.... perhaps that is where your glitches are coming from.

SAWStudio focuses on code efficiency... which unfortunately does not fit many loose and in-efficient industry standards... so it will not work well with every piece of hardware or software out there.... sorry.

Looks like SAWStudio is just not going to be a good match for that soundcard... this is why I recommend certain soundcards, based on driver design for best results with SAWStudio.

Bob L

[Carl Mateo]

Thanks Bob,

I decided to try the E-mu soundcard because it was inexpensive, $200 and seemed to be offering a lot. This was before I discovered Saw. I was going to get either an RME or a Lynx card. Well now, it seems to work well in Cubase SX, and Cubase allows you to change the buffer sample sizes like this: 32, 48, 64, 96,128,256.

Anyway, I can spring for a new card or go with this one. I don't know what is best for my particular situation yet. I appreciate your attention and patience, especially with someone like me who is new to the PC recording world. It is an exceptional opportunity to "speak" directly to the developer on such a cool product. Even if I decide to go another route for now, I will certainly spread the word for folks to check you and Sawstudio out.

Peace,

Carl,

"Ray is America, the Beautiful." Darius

[Bob L]

If you can set to 64, 128, 256 etc... in Cubase... simply set it that way and then go to SAWStudio... it should see the exact same buffer sizes...

The number of buffers is something unique to SAWStudio... try 2 or 3.

Bob L

[bertie]

hi,

fader delay can be caused also by a bad written plugin - i had the same problem like you even in a lower buffer sizes i had fader latencies both in SAW and other DAW's.

Solution:

SWITCH OFF ALL YOUR PLUGINS AND START TURNING THEM ON ONE BY ONE AND SEE WHICH ONE IS USING BUFFER RESOURCES DRASTICALLY!


Bertie (lifetime SAWStudio user)
:)

[Carl Mateo]

hey,

Thanks Bertie, the fader issue has been resolved but I am having other, more problematic "glitches". No need to shout , by the way. Checking the plug ins was the first thing I did.


"If you can set to 64, 128, 256 etc... in Cubase... simply set it that way and then go to SAWStudio... it should see the exact same buffer sizes...

The number of buffers is something unique to SAWStudio... try 2 or 3.

Bob L"
I tried this as well , to no avail. Still strange numbers in Saw. You can change the number of buffers in Cubase as well. Guess my soundcard is Sawproblematic after all.


Carl

[Carl Mateo]

Hey Bob,

I got another response from E-mu.

"***Sorry we don't have SAW here. Will try and get a copy for future testing. It is very strange that the Latency is not set using our ASIO control panel. Do you see any advanced or control panels buttons around? Also it might be best to contact SAW tech support on this one, as if they do not show "advanced settings" or "control panel" like Cubase/Sonar etc. they must have issues with other sound card ASIO implementations too as this is pretty standard. So i'm sure they must have a FAQ on the subject.


Best,
ICHi
E-MU Systems "

It seems very odd that I cannot access the Audio Driver Setup in Saw. I also have had a problem when I click to switch drivers: i have to go in a circle to the the wdm driver to be on by itself ... is it possible that my copy of the demo was corrupted some how? I have uninstalled the demo and I am going to try a new download. I am fishing around here.

Perhaps you could provide E-mu with a copy of SawstudioBasic so they can test it with their products.

Carl

[AudioAstronomer]

Carl, I do not know if this is the cause....

My motu drivers will not allow me to enter the control panel for ASIO unless there are no softwares open that use a sound device. If I have WMP, or AIM or anything similiar open, as well as SAW, for some reason ASIO control pannel does not work at all. I noticed this recently trying to change settings using the motu 896 with my laptop.

Im sorry if I missed it in the thread, what happens when you hit the setup option in saw?

Unfortunately Ive seen in other forums EMU's support does not have their act together as one user posting various messages in his quest to get their card to work with another software... he got 3 techs telling him 3 opposing things. Then one tech even "promised" an update soon, upon mentioning this again to the tech email, another tech replied that this was false and no update would be issued. So far I have not seen a single user happy with their products :( Everytime I see someone say how excited they are to have gotten one of the new EMU products, eventually it is followed by a plethora of problems much like your own. It is unfortunate, but you do say this works properly with other software?

Maybe a solution is to use a free ASIO host (there's a few out there by spinaudio, rgc, jorgen, kreatives.org) and try their routine for changing ASIO buffers?

[Bob L]

Any one can try the demo download to test their products... the Full SAWStudio works exactly the same as the demos... any problems with the full SAWStudio will show up in a demo test.

The problem you are having with your soundcard is the first report of any ASIO issues for quite some time now, so it would appear that I have gotton the code to pretty much follow the basic standards concerning the ASIO driver control panel function, but there always seems to be one more thing some other soundcard driver does differently. :)

Bob L

[Carl Mateo]

Audio Astronomer, thanks for the ideas. I will double check to make sure nothing else is running when I try and access the Driver setup in Saw.

The E-mu 1212 is a new product and I knew I was taking a chance with it. The converters sound very rich and natural to me. I can record and monitor via the E-MU card. And the only glitch I have had so far is with Saw. I have tried Cubase Sx, Samplitude, Tracktion, Adobe Audition without an obvious soundcard problem. But like Bob said ...there is always seems to be one more thing someother soundcard will do differently.

Bob, I suggested to E-mu that they download Saw and try it. I believe they have done that as I received a response in another forum which stated:

"***Looks like there is a setting to open a control panel but nothing happens. Will check into this.

Best,
ICHi
E-MU Systems"

I encouraged him to contact you via this Forum as it seems like you are very open to discussing and advancing your product.

Audioastronomer... I have not seen any of those complaints you mentioned about the E-mu soundcards... where they at, so i can check em out. I am not ready to give up on it yet.

Sort of feel the same way about having Saw in my studio. I thought that Saw sounded different (... hard to explain but I thought I detected more texture in ,say, an acoustic guitar mix, etc.) from the other apps I have tried and I would love to be able to check this out more but between the glitches and the beeps it is difficult to get going with it.

Much appreciation,

Carl

[mghtx]

I was looking at getting the E-MU as well. Looks like I'll wait a bit now. But I seem to remember reading somewhere that the E-MU ASIO drivers were not up to par yet. Or maybe it was their WDM drivers, I'll check again. It's a new product so they will be updating their drivers as time goes on.

[Carl Mateo]

hi,

i have read a bit about the WDM drivers needing some work but the ASIO has been good ... till now?

Carl

[AudioAstronomer]

I have seen problems on nearly every forum Ive visited. Homerecording, kvr-vst, tapeop, prorec, here, various product forums (steinberg, magix, emagic, fasoft)...

and I know for a fact many users are having this same problem in tracktion :) I am a very big fan of that software and extremely active in the community as I am here. check the mackie forums and kvr-vst. Im not sure if there's active threads on mackie, but I did receive pms from 2 people with issues.

All I can figure is this is a product of e-mu's mass consumer beta-test, like microsoft does ya know? Release a product to the public as finished and hope they figure out the bugs . I do hope they fix your problem.

I have found someone locally with this product and am going to see if they will let me test saw on it. Perhaps I can see if this is a universal problem or not. Since EMU tech support identified it, I assume it is indeed a universal problem. It also happens in tracktion occasionally... but tracktion has other issues with the card.