OT—CD Masters With Hidden Tracks

[Sean McCoy]

Tonight for the first time I had a client request a hidden track at the front of his CD master. CD Architect does support it if Red Book requirements are turned off, but neither my Pioneer or Plextor drives will. Does anybody know of a drive that will definitely allow this?

[TotalSonic]

Sean -
What model Plextor are you using? It's been a long while since I've been requested to put audio in the initial pre-gap pause, but iirc many Plextor models can in fact do this. When I get a chance I'll try and test out my Premium and 760A for you (might take me some time to get to these tests as I just got a bunch of orders in though).

Also - make sure that the plant your client is going to use can accept masters with audio in the initial pre-gap pause as well - as some out there will not do it as it can creates compatibility problems for the discs in a good number of CD players (which your client should be made aware of as well).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bill Park]

Tonight for the first time I had a client request a hidden track at the front of his CD master. CD Architect does support it if Red Book requirements are turned off, but neither my Pioneer or Plextor drives will. Does anybody know of a drive that will definitely allow this?

If I'm not mistaken there are a couple of different applicable specs, depending upon exactly what he wants and what he expects to happen/how he expects it to be accessed. The Plextors should handle it. As Steve says, it's been a while since anyone wanted this, probably because it was a waste of time for most artists. (People don't buy more of your CDs because of this extra content, most never play it, and the compatability issues with some players/users create problems that cause returns.) We were all worried about this 15 tears ago, but no one has asked me about it this century.

Files, photos, video, etc all can be written in that first track, and that is not a Red Book spec, but another color (sorry, but I forget which color...) Obviously this track won't play on an audio player, but will on a computer. (But some audio players -try- to play it, resulting in a high pitched squeal.) There is another data format that places the data at the end of the disk. Again, nit sure which spec/book color this is.

Within Red Book and for an audio track, creating an illegal TOC with a 0 track in the 1 position creates a 'hidden track' that you usually have to scan backwards to find and play, but just hitting 'play' on a CD player will usually skip over this track and go straight to the #1 track.

But as we said, compatability is a problem. Also, consider how this might affect digital delivery streams besides CDs.... how do you handle it there? Do you not offer the track to anyone who tries to buy the digital download instead of the hard CD?

[Bill Park]

Also, find out what they mean by 'hidden track'.
There was a time when people would place two songs on one track separated by :30 to one minute of dead air. Many people would hear blank, and skip to the next track thinking there was something wrong with their CD. They never knew about the song, because it wasn't listed on the CD notes.
but, of course, if you playted the entire CD, you'd hear the song, and the dead air. A lot of people did this at the end of the CD.
For this 'hidden track' concept, there's no special equipment required. Just dead air, and another song or joke or element behind the listed song on the same physical track number.

I have several CDs wherein there is a track at the end after quite a dead air space, that are presented as you describe. All of the ones that I can think of right now are appended to the 'final' track, and share that track number.

[Sean McCoy]

My Plextor drive is a 760a, and it says "no way!" This is a rapper/hip-hop guy who does all his (relatively interesting) stuff in Acid and brings me the mixes for mastering. He created a short compiled excerpt using bizarre overlaps and edits from every song on the album, and his original idea was to do the long space trick and add it to the end, which to me is not really a "hidden" track since everybody who plays the CD and doesn't manually stop it will hear it. More of a "surprise" track. I suggested hiding it at the front and mentioning the hidden track on the cover and he liked the idea. My bad. :o

[Bill Park]

My reference material are packed for our move, but I poked around the net... you're looking for the combined Yellow Book/Red Book spec for CD-i (which, I gather, is different from the CD-i Green Book spec), or the Enhanced CD spec, which is Blue Book. I don't know which will do exactly what you want, but Blue has the hidden track info.

[Sean McCoy]

Wow, thanks for doing the legwork for me, Bill! So I need a Blue Book-compatible CD burner. I'll run right out and get one! Not. I didn't realize this was such a complex thing. Serves me right for making an uninformed suggestion.

[TotalSonic]

Wow, thanks for doing the legwork for me, Bill! So I need a Blue Book-compatible CD burner. I'll run right out and get one! Not. I didn't realize this was such a complex thing. Serves me right for making an uninformed suggestion.

You guys are getting confused - Blue Book spec - aka "CD Plus", "CD Extra", or "Enhanced CD" - is where you have audio tracks as a first session, followed by a second session of data (where you can place in things like text files, videos, pics, etc.). With Blue Book spec discs the first audio session is played in a regular player with the data session being completely ignored - while a computers CD-ROM drive can access both the data and the audio.

As far as Blue Book spec compatibility - you don't need a special burner - the Plextor 760A already is capable of burning to Blue Book specs - you just need software that can burn Session At Once (and don't "close" or "finalize" the disc after burning the first audio session) - or that allows you to set up Blue Book spec masters easily in a single app (such as Nero's "CD Extra" option - which is what I use to burn Enhanced CD masters myself).

Prior to Blue Book spec being created there were discs burned in "Mixed Mode" where there was only a single session with the first track being data and all the tracks - but this was generally abandoned because some CD players wouldn't properly ignore the first track (although many would) and instead would play the data as noise.

Both Blue Book and Mixed Mode are NOT what you want to use for just a hidden audio track.

With "hidden" tracks the methods used are:
* Place audio in the inital pre-gap pause area (so you have to rewind from the first track to hear this). The "advantage" is that in this method the audio is truly hidden- the big disadvantage is that there is less compatibility for discs made this way.
* Place audio in the final track after a long blank pause. This is now a fairly common way of doing these things but the disadvantage of this is if folks "rip" this track to their computer they get one long track containing both tunes - and in shuffle mode they'll have to wait through the silence you have set between the tracks as well.
* Place first a long area of silence, followed by the audio after the second to last track after a pause index prior to a final track index that is short and only contains silence (4 seconds minimum to stay in Red Book specs). This way in shuffle mode the "hidden" track is ignored, and people can't get directly to this track with their remotes, yet people don't have to wait through silence in shuffle play, or get an ultra-long double track when ripping the disc to their computer. Generally this final method is what I recommend doing.

Anyway - I just burned a disc with a Plextor 760A using Sonoris DDP Creator 2.0rc2 (beta) setup with audio in the pre-gap pause - but both my Denon and Sony CD players wouldn't allow me to rewind before track 1. More testing to follow.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Sean McCoy]

You guys are getting confused...
Anyway - I just burned a disc with a Plextor 760A using Sonoris DDP Creator 2.0rc2 (beta) setup with audio in the pre-gap pause - but both my Denon and Sony CD players wouldn't allow me to rewind before track 1. More testing to follow.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Confused I am! CD Architect's help file says unequivocally it can create CD's with audio in the pre-gap, but when I try to burn I get an error claiming the drive—a Plextor 760A—requires that track 1 be at exactly the 2-second mark. Could it be a firmware issue?

[TotalSonic]

Confused I am! CD Architect's help file says unequivocally it can create CD's with audio in the pre-gap, but when I try to burn I get an error claiming the drive***8212;a Plextor 760A***8212;requires that track 1 be at exactly the 2-second mark. Could it be a firmware issue?

Sean -
I'm thinking a possible culprit might be the way you have your indexes and audio setup in CDA. It's been a few years since I last used CDA - and I know for a fact that it is indeed possible to set up audio in the pre-gap pause with it - but maybe it's worth examining this first.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[DominicPerry]

Tell them that it's music and it's meant to be listened to, not hidden. :D

Seriously, what is the point in all this kind of fiddling?

I'm turning into a really grumpy old man.:mad::mad:

Dominic

[Sean McCoy]

Tell them that it's music and it's meant to be listened to, not hidden. :D

Seriously, what is the point in all this kind of fiddling?

I'm turning into a really grumpy old man.:mad::mad:

Dominic
It's okay. You've earned that right. (as have I)

And in my experience, a lot of music is best left hidden. If I can figure out how to do this, I can see myself someday recommending to a client that the entire CD reside in the pre-gap.

[Sean McCoy]

Sean -
I'm thinking a possible culprit might be the way you have your indexes and audio setup in CDA. It's been a few years since I last used CDA - and I know for a fact that it is indeed possible to set up audio in the pre-gap pause with it - but maybe it's worth examining this first.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Well, I've tried everything I can think of. I set up the audio and tracks to look exactly like the example in the CDA help file. Then I reset the time ruler so that track one falls at 2:00, and the music in the pre-gap plays back with a negative countdown as it should. Either way, when I try to burn, the error dialogue says "this drive requires the start time for track 1 to be exactly 2 seconds." It's apparently counting from the start of the disc, and not from the timeline.

So, Steve, did you actually get the burn to work with your 760a? If so, can you tell me what firmware revision you have?

[TotalSonic]

Well, I've tried everything I can think of. I set up the audio and tracks to look exactly like the example in the CDA help file. Then I reset the time ruler so that track one falls at 2:00, and the music in the pre-gap plays back with a negative countdown as it should. Either way, when I try to burn, the error dialogue says "this drive requires the start time for track 1 to be exactly 2 seconds." It's apparently counting from the start of the disc, and not from the timeline.

So, Steve, did you actually get the burn to work with your 760a? If so, can you tell me what firmware revision you have?

Sean -
I was able to burn a disc setup with audio in the pre-gap pause with Sonoris DDP Creator 2.0 (rc2) using my 760A without any error messages on the burn - and the initial tracks play fine - but I was not able to rewind to hear any audio in pre-gap with the 2 CD players I tested the disc with. I need to test the contents of the disc itself to see if this is the fault of the software, burner or disc (i.e. if audio in the pre-gap was not actually burned onto the disc) - or if it's simply that the players I have are not compatible with hidden tracks in the initial pre-gap pause - but haven't had time.

The firmware version on my 760A is 1.06.

I don't have CD Architect installed in the DAW that I have my 760A in so unfortunately I can't test this for you.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Sean McCoy]

Sean -
I was able to burn a disc setup with audio in the pre-gap pause with Sonoris DDP Creator 2.0 (rc2) using my 760A without any error messages on the burn - and the initial tracks play fine - but I was not able to rewind to hear any audio in pre-gap with the 2 CD players I tested the disc with. I need to test the contents of the disc itself to see if this is the fault of the software, burner or disc (i.e. if audio in the pre-gap was not actually burned onto the disc) - or if it's simply that the players I have are not compatible with hidden tracks in the initial pre-gap pause - but haven't had time.

The firmware version on my 760A is 1.06.

I don't have CD Architect installed in the DAW that I have my 760A in so unfortunately I can't test this for you.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Great, keep me posted if you learn anything new. My 760a is 1.06 also. It will be interesting to see if your discs burned while ignoring the pre-gap audio. That would indicate that CDA is just more finicky about drive specifications.

[MikeDee]

Well, I've tried everything I can think of. I set up the audio and tracks to look exactly like the example in the CDA help file. Then I reset the time ruler so that track one falls at 2:00, and the music in the pre-gap plays back with a negative countdown as it should. Either way, when I try to burn, the error dialogue says "this drive requires the start time for track 1 to be exactly 2 seconds." It's apparently counting from the start of the disc, and not from the timeline.

So, Steve, did you actually get the burn to work with your 760a? If so, can you tell me what firmware revision you have?

2:00 [that's 2 minutes]? Shouldn't it be 0:02 [which is 2 seconds]? Or can the pre-gap actually be longer than 2 seconds?? Guess I'll have to check my version of CDA when I get a chance.

Sorry if I have misread or misunderstood.

[TotalSonic]

2:00 [that's 2 minutes]? Shouldn't it be 0:02 [which is 2 seconds]? Or can the pre-gap actually be longer than 2 seconds?? Guess I'll have to check my version of CDA when I get a chance.

Sorry if I have misread or misunderstood.

CD Times are generally indicated by values shown as 00:00:00 - with it being Minutes : Seconds : CD Frames (75 frames a second) -
so 2 seconds would usually appear as 00:02:00 on a printed PQ sheet.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Sean McCoy]

And I've been working in post for so long that I frequently use video frames as a time reference. It can get confusing living in a base 30 world.

[MikeDee]

CD Times are generally indicated by values shown as 00:00:00 - with it being Minutes : Seconds : CD Frames (75 frames a second) -
so 2 seconds would usually appear as 00:02:00 on a printed PQ sheet.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Thank you, Steve, for unfreezing my brain. :o I forgot all about the frames. I guess I got f***248;***248;led, not seeing the implied preceding "00:0" before "2:00" -- now I hear The Who somewhere in the distance. :D

Best regards,