OT- loud lead singer talks very quietly

[mojogil]

I have a guy who sings with a lot of power but practically whispers when he talks to the crowd. People up close, can hear him but I can't understand what he's saying. The other singer in the band projects well when he talks. I mentioned to him to talk louder but his solution is to crank up his mic and he'll back off on the singing. We know that is not a good solution. I have some comp and makeup gain on his channel already.
What do I do?
Gil

[mattaudio]

Tell him too bad: talk louder or sing quieter.

[Guitarkeys.com]

Good mic technique will beat compression for good sound hands down every time. This includes speaking. Take his voice out of the monitors when he's talking, that might wake him up.

I have had the same problem in the past and just simply had to say speak up or sing, but its frustrating for everyone if you can't hear what he's saying.

my 2 cents

[dbarrow]

Here's a few:

I had a female singer in a band I used to work for that sang loud, but talked (or yelled) at the audience even louder. She would be right up on the mic while talking (loud) and I had to be ready to trim it down right away between songs or it would take your head off.

With a praise band I work with every Sunday one lady will check all eight vocal mics to "make sure they all sound the same". This is useless, because each singer is quite different with respect to volume, projection and technique. The other "trick" each individual singer does is to talk quietly, "testing 1, 2, 3" and then belt it out beyond distortion when actually singing. I have explained mic technique and the physics of how the mic and sound system actually work in terms of these discrepencies in technique until I am blue in the face and it does no good. I just have to play along and counter all the "tricks" and different approaches.

At wedding receptions, the people giving toasts will invariably hold the mic out at arms length, pointed straight up, while the audience yells: "turn him up, we can't hear him"! I usually give the toasting person a one sentence explanation of how to hold the mic and where to aim it, complete with an actual example of me doing it. It makes no difference. They won't do it.

I also did monitors a while back for a major act where one of the main "stars" would sing very quietly while having his guitar amp cranked. The guitar was going in his vocal mic much louder than his voice even though the amp was fifteen feet away. He kept calling for more of his vocal in the monitor, but it was always drowned out by the guitar at any level.

God bless all of these people.

[Mark Stebbeds]

You've done the right thing by explaining the problem to the vocalist. Now it's up to them to decide how to help fix the problem.

It's also up to the sound mixer to do his job and ride the fader. That's what it's for.

Mark

[gdougherty]

One option I've used on dual purpose mics (one vocal mic designated as an MC mic) is to double the input onto another channel. Leave the "talking" mic lower or out of the monitors completely and crank up the input attenuator to get a good level in his case. The preferred solution would definitely be to get him to talk louder but this will fix things too. Set a scene to toggle back and forth.

[mycorn]

What do I do?
Gil

show him this thread

tell him your name is not merlin
and there are no more rabbits in the hat

...and then you'l still have to ride the fader

fwiw

[Guitarkeys.com]

Of course a sound man needs to do what he can at all times to produce quality sound, I also got the impression that he works day in and day out with the person so it's up to both of them to produce a quality product. Also, if he is aware it is a problem and chooses not to fix it or , well, kind of a big ego for such a small stage....

Jamie
-slowly becoming a gumpy old man

[Yogi]

Good mic technique will beat compression for good sound hands down every time. This includes speaking. Take his voice out of the monitors when he's talking, that might wake him up.

I have had the same problem in the past and just simply had to say speak up or sing, but its frustrating for everyone if you can't hear what he's saying.

my 2 cents
To effectively take his voice out of the monitor throw a gate on his mike in the monitor mix and set the threshold up high and tell him when he can hear himself in the monitor he's talking loud enough. That way you won't have to ride the fader on his mike.

[gdougherty]

To effectively take his voice out of the monitor throw a gate on his mike in the monitor mix and set the threshold up high and tell him when he can hear himself in the monitor he's talking loud enough. That way you won't have to ride the fader on his mike.

Like the idea. I love SAC that we can do that without another expensive monitor board.

[Yogi]

There's no way you could do that on any other board, digital or analog, that I know of. SAC just has so many options, most times you just have to think something through and there's probably a way to do exactly what you want. If not, if it's a worthy idea, Bob will build it.

[Mark Stebbeds]

To effectively take his voice out of the monitor throw a gate on his mike in the monitor mix and set the threshold up high and tell him when he can hear himself in the monitor he's talking loud enough. That way you won't have to ride the fader on his mike.

This is among the most unprofessional advice I have ever heard.

If someone is too friggin' lazy to move a fader, and instead put the onus of responsibility on the talent to be heard, then it would be best for everyone for him to just quit being a sound man and find another line of work.

If I heard this advice on a job I was running, they would be fired before the next show.
Mark

[gdougherty]

This is among the most unprofessional advice I have ever heard.

If someone is too friggin' lazy to move a fader, and instead put the onus of responsibility on the talent to be heard, then it would be best for everyone for him to just quit being a sound man and find another line of work.

If I heard this advice on a job I was running, they would be fired before the next show.
Mark

Well, there are a few things in play here. I suppose we don't know but the OP seems to have a regular relationship with the infringer, possibly bandmates or something. If the level change is drastic enough to that the fader can't provide enough boost and instead it must be tackled with the trim then maybe some training and learning on the part of the musician is in order.
I think the gate is suggested as a sort of training wheel and I'm guessing that it would be done with the consent of the musician in question.
I don't think Yogi is suggesting that this be a regular practice for any Joe musician that crosses the stage whether they want it or not. It is a good thing though to clarify that point and if that were not the case, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.

I'll admit I've been guilty of tweaking down a singer in the monitor if they seem to be slouching into timidity, though it's only with people I know and only when I know them to suffer from that problem. Tends to be self-concious female singers that don't really like to hear themselves in the first place. For some reason we seem to get more than our fair share of those in churches.

[Guitarkeys.com]

Bad advice, but a great training tool! That's hilarious.

And don't forget to use the double buss compression so we can hear the inner workings of his lungs...

Jamie

[Mark Stebbeds]

If the level change is drastic enough to that the fader can't provide enough boost and instead it must be tackled with the trim then maybe some training and learning on the part of the musician is in order.


No, not buying it. Having a vocal mic cut in and out with a gate depending on the talent's volume or performance is amateurish and unprofessional under any circumstances.

And if you can't get the gain you are either just too lazy or just don't understand basic audio principles.

And sure, the talent needs to help out, but it's the soundman's job to make him be heard. I'm not buying that there is not an easy solution.

Mark

[gdougherty]

No, not buying it. Having a vocal mic cut in and out with a gate depending on the talent's volume or performance is amateurish and unprofessional under any circumstances.

And if you can't get the gain you are either just too lazy or just don't understand basic audio principles.

And sure, the talent needs to help out, but it's the soundman's job to make him be heard. I'm not buying that there is not an easy solution.

Mark

Guess I'm talking about my own experience and SAC as well here. I like to run my vocals so they're about nominal with good input gain and all the volume I need in FOH. If I can't get someone loud enough with 20db of boost over that then I'm saying maybe some training is needed. Again, this is not for the musician who just walked on the stage, this is for the person I'm working with on a weekly or daily basis. I expect levels to drop during speaking passages and needing to ride fader in those cases. I do that. 20db swings are a little excessive and it seems like tackling the issue from another perspective may be helpful. I may catch it and get him loud enough, but someone else not used to him may not. We're not talking about gating it so the FOH drops him out and I don't know that I'd do it to him during a live performance either. Typically not the best place to do things that will be distracting to the performers.

[mloretitsch]

You only have one guy who does this? You're lucky! :) When a song is over I group mute my effects channels and automatically push my vocal group up 5db (sometimes 10). It's become a near habit at this point :) Sometimes you just do the best you can. You could also try some creative EQ to give a little more top end definition to the vocal between songs..might bring it out a little bit.

If you can develop a good relationship with said person you may try explaining nicely the situation and that it will improve the audience's enjoyment of the show. This works about .005% of the time in my experience :D

-Matt

[ssrsound]

Yet another win for SAC ... the ability to do all that in a scene.

[RBIngraham]

Why not just assign his vocal mic to 2 separate channels in SAC. One set up for singing just like you already have it. Then a second channel with more gain at the attenuator, maybe take it out of the monitors some or turn that feed down, so it's not quite so drastic, etc..

At the end of the songs you just use a scene to mute one channel and unmute the other.

[mojogil]

Just to clarify my original post:
The singer and I play every weekend together and often during the week. We have a great working relationship. He is truly gifted vocally but is fairly new at it, even though he's achieved some nice success over the past 4 years. He's interested in improving his skillset and is open minded. I'm just having a hard time getting him to understand this one. The SAC remote that he has on his rig makes it hard for me to just drop his vocals in his monitor, he'll just turn it back up. I am doing what any decent sound person would do and I'm riding the fader, working the comp, etc. I just wanted your opinions.
Thanks,
Gil

[Yogi]

This is among the most unprofessional advice I have ever heard.

If someone is too friggin' lazy to move a fader, and instead put the onus of responsibility on the talent to be heard, then it would be best for everyone for him to just quit being a sound man and find another line of work.

If I heard this advice on a job I was running, they would be fired before the next show.
Mark

Mark,
I really can't understand why you are even here on this forum. You obviously will NEVER use SAC. All you do is throw rocks at every idea or comment that you don't like. You go to great distances to make others look stupid so that you look smart. As for being unprofessional I find your attitude and demeanor unprofessional. And any time you want to match IQs, or W-2s (which goes a long way to the old saying "if he's so smart why ain't he rich"), or gold records hanging on the wall, or patents, or professional certifications then bring them on. I decided 30 years ago I'd rather not stay in the rat race of town to town and hotels and bad food just to do sound for a band. In the mean time I've built more sound systems pro bono for churches than you've probably worked on, and my customers send me more work from others than I have time for.

In the future if you want to disagree with the opinions or advice stated here then just say what your opinion is without demeaning others. I'm more than sure I'm not the only one that shares this opinion of you. Personally if I were Bob you'd have been gone long ago, but then he is probably more patient than I.

[Carl G.]

Mark,
I really can't understand why you are even here on this forum. You obviously will NEVER use SAC. All you do is throw rocks at every idea or comment that you don't like. You go to great distances to make others look stupid so that you look smart. As for being unprofessional I find your attitude and demeanor unprofessional. .....
In the future if you want to disagree with the opinions or advice stated here then just say what your opinion is without demeaning others. I'm more than sure I'm not the only one that shares this opinion of you. Personally if I were Bob you'd have been gone long ago, but then he is probably more patient than I.
Yogi, I couldn't agree with you more. Remarks of suposed wisdom become duplicitous at best in light of the obvious trend of tainting the forum. I can understand why he's here - but even if Bob band his posts - he'd just be back in another form on the forum.

[gdougherty]

One option I've used on dual purpose mics (one vocal mic designated as an MC mic) is to double the input onto another channel. Leave the "talking" mic lower or out of the monitors completely and crank up the input attenuator to get a good level in his case. The preferred solution would definitely be to get him to talk louder but this will fix things too. Set a scene to toggle back and forth.


Why not just assign his vocal mic to 2 separate channels in SAC. One set up for singing just like you already have it. Then a second channel with more gain at the attenuator, maybe take it out of the monitors some or turn that feed down, so it's not quite so drastic, etc..

At the end of the songs you just use a scene to mute one channel and unmute the other.

I like that idea. ;)

[gdougherty]

Just to clarify my original post:
The singer and I play every weekend together and often during the week. We have a great working relationship. He is truly gifted vocally but is fairly new at it, even though he's achieved some nice success over the past 4 years. He's interested in improving his skillset and is open minded. I'm just having a hard time getting him to understand this one. The SAC remote that he has on his rig makes it hard for me to just drop his vocals in his monitor, he'll just turn it back up. I am doing what any decent sound person would do and I'm riding the fader, working the comp, etc. I just wanted your opinions.
Thanks,
Gil


Thanks for the clarification. That's kind of what it sounded like was going on. In that case I'd look at the double channel route. His original vocal could even stay in the monitor, just don't add any from the talking channel.

[RBIngraham]

I like that idea. ;)

Opppss... sorry I wasn't trying to steal your thunder. Honest! :p

[gdougherty]

Yogi and Carl, while Mark may be abnoxious at times (okay, most times) and he may not ever run SAC, you never know. Someday he may sruprise us. He may be waiting around as well to see just what SAC becomes and maybe right now the feature set isn't quite where he'd be comfortable using it or ditching his old gear. Hard to say. I can't imagine life without it, but I'm also willing to live with some of the "shortcomings" Mark has pointed out in the past in order to get the sound quality and feature set at a price I can afford. The features and flexibility of SAC are more than enough to make up for any "shortcoming" I've come across.

As to Bob, I'm kind of glad he hasn't banned Mark and hope he never does. I know he's gotten under Bob's skin several times, but to me it says alot about Bob's character and confidence in his product. He doesn't feel the need to outright ban any criticism of the product and that keeps this an open place of discussion. Some people would take the draconian approach and potentially squash open commenting by fears of what else might get us banned. I've been involved with other discussion boards in the past where stepping out of line from the owner's views got you booted. Not a fun place to be.

[Yogi]

George,
My comment was not about opposing views. You can disagree and be professional about it. That wasn't the point. I took personal offense at being called unprofessional considering he has no idea what my background, abilities or accomplishments are, and considering some of the comments I've seen him make to others I stand by what I feel about his attitude and demeaning comments. There are many levels of expertise on this forum and for him to put himself above all others that his point of view has more merit than the rest of us is just unacceptable. Knock me if you wish for speaking out but I just grew tired of it.

[Mark Stebbeds]

Mark,
I really can't understand why you are even here on this forum. You obviously will NEVER use SAC.

And I can't understand why anyone would actually try to use technology to cut someone's mic off during a live performance with a gate ...in an effort to "train" a vocalist ....for the purpose of the soundman avoiding moving a fader, as you suggest. This has nothing to do with SAC.

[

To effectively take his voice out of the monitor throw a gate on his mike in the monitor mix and set the threshold up high and tell him when he can hear himself in the monitor he's talking loud enough. That way you won't have to ride the fader on his mike.

This has absolutely nothing to with SAC. Regardless of the software or hardware mixing solution, that is just plain bad advice. I recommend that no one try it. Not breaking the creative flow of a stage talent is rule number one ..at least in my world. It's like you're punishing the poor guy by turning off his monitor if he speaks softly for a moment.



All you do is throw rocks at every idea or comment that you don't like.

Not really, but this one was ridiculous. Moving a fader a bit to ride a vocal level ...and paying attention ....is an age old tested and proven solution. It works. All the comments about "not enough gain" are not realistic.

Replacing a fader move with some other tactile command to switch channels not only opens the door for error ...of two channels being wide open by mistake ....but doesn't eliminate the required tactile interface.

And by the way, I did not say that you were unprofessional, I said the suggestion was. It is our jobs ...our profession ...to use our skills and equipment to solve the problems of performances, not create them, or direct the talent to control audio levels so we don't have to.

Mark

[gdougherty]

George,
My comment was not about opposing views. You can disagree and be professional about it. That wasn't the point. I took personal offense at being called unprofessional considering he has no idea what my background, abilities or accomplishments are, and considering some of the comments I've seen him make to others I stand by what I feel about his attitude and demeaning comments. There are many levels of expertise on this forum and for him to put himself above all others that his point of view has more merit than the rest of us is just unacceptable. Knock me if you wish for speaking out but I just grew tired of it.

I think you describe his general attitude more accurately than I. I'd chalked up his comments here to an incomplete or innacurate understanding of what was suggested. I don't disagree I'd like to see a shift in his attitude and you're right, it's the kind of attitude that'd earn him a poor reputation around the stages I've been a part of. No doubt he knows his stuff but rude old crustaceans like himself aren't worth my time.

No knock to you, the offense is understandable and not unwarranted.

[Carl G.]

George,
My comment was not about opposing views. You can disagree and be professional about it. That wasn't the point. I took personal offense at being called unprofessional considering he has no idea what my background, abilities or accomplishments are, and considering some of the comments I've seen him make to others I stand by what I feel about his attitude and demeaning comments. There are many levels of expertise on this forum and for him to put himself above all others that his point of view has more merit than the rest of us is just unacceptable. Knock me if you wish for speaking out but I just grew tired of it.

That pretty much sums it up here, too (and what I said earlier).

[Mark Stebbeds]

Remarks of suposed wisdom become duplicitous at best in light of the obvious trend of tainting the forum.

So Carl, poor spelling and weak syntax aside ...do you have an opinion on the subject at hand, or are you keeping your sole contribution to the thread 100***37; inflammatory and derisive as usual?

Mark

[gdougherty]

This thread seems to have contributed all of the useful material out there. I'd suggest some people go have a beer and sleep it off. That's my plan.

[RBIngraham]

This thread seems to have contributed all of the useful material out there. I'd suggest some people go have a beer and sleep it off. That's my plan.

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