D-Show Crashes, While SAC Goes On!!

[IraSeigel]

In Gainesville, FL tonight in the Phillips Performing Arts Center at the Univ of FL with Donnell Leahy and Natalie MacMaster - 4th show with SAC.

I am outputting 3 channels - L, R, and Subs - into the house DShow console. Halfway thru the show, the DShow has a big error message on the screen - something like "Plug-ins have caused the system to crash. The console will still pass audio, but you can't make any adjustments. Choose a quiet part of the show to reboot". Hah! And my SAC system just kept right on humming along. Absolutely glitch-free.

We're getting some very positive comments and oohs and aahs about SAC out here. Several engineers want to try a demo.

Also, Earthworks Audio loaned me 2 of their brand new Touring PianoMic Systems - the PM40-T. Very very cool piano mics.

Ira

[Bruce Callaway]

In Gainesville, FL tonight in the Phillips Performing Arts Center at the Univ of FL with Donnell Leahy and Natalie MacMaster - 4th show with SAC.

I am outputting 3 channels - L, R, and Subs - into the house DShow console. Halfway thru the show, the DShow has a big error message on the screen - something like "Plug-ins have caused the system to crash. The console will still pass audio, but you can't make any adjustments. Choose a quiet part of the show to reboot". Hah! And my SAC system just kept right on humming along. Absolutely glitch-free.

We're getting some very positive comments and oohs and aahs about SAC out here. Several engineers want to try a demo.

Also, Earthworks Audio loaned me 2 of their brand new Touring PianoMic Systems - the PM40-T. Very very cool piano mics.

IraThat's great. During my first outing with SAC at a conference, we kept the mixing desk as a backup however nothing was working as the mixing desk output had failed. Everyone though it was my setup until I connected the FOH cables directly to the ADA8000s and we had sound :) People then started to take it seriously....

[ffarrell]

HI

Was that the house desk or a touring desk?

Do you know what plugin it was on the D-show?


Digidesign just released new system software.

None of my SAW or SAC rigs have every failed,, but none of my D-show have either.

thanks
fvf







In Gainesville, FL tonight in the Phillips Performing Arts Center at the Univ of FL with Donnell Leahy and Natalie MacMaster - 4th show with SAC.


Ira

[Phil]

Ira, that's neat to hear. Of course I never would wish a sound tech to have troubles. We're having DMX LED ligting troubles. Just another thing to become an expert on. :eek:

[Ogmeister]

SAC has not let us down yet. Any problems we have had were from the hardware not the software.


Great job Bob!

[IraSeigel]

HI

Was that the house desk or a touring desk?

Do you know what plugin it was on the D-show?


Digidesign just released new system software.

None of my SAW or SAC rigs have every failed,, but none of my D-show have either.

thanks
fvf

Hi Frank,
The house engineer had just installed the updates. He thinks it might have been the TrueTrace spectrum analyzer plug-in, but he wasn't sure. That was the only thing he was running while distributing my feeds to his various locations, AFAIK.

There's a log somewhere in the system, and he was going to look at it to see if it indicated where the problem was

Ira

[Mark Stebbeds]

I am outputting 3 channels - L, R, and Subs - into the house DShow console. Halfway thru the show, the DShow has a big error message on the screen - something like "Plug-ins have caused the system to crash. The console will still pass audio, but you can't make any adjustments. Choose a quiet part of the show to reboot". Hah! And my SAC system just kept right on humming along. Absolutely glitch-free.


That is because the D-show is designed with multiple redundant back up systems to keep working under a system failure. It will continue to pass audio.

You are incorrect about adjustments. During a system failure ...even a hard drive crash and a blue screen ....the Venue retains fader and mute control. You can still mix levels, although you need to reboot for plug-in and other software access. At least that is what I have been advised by Venue tech support.

On the other hand, if SAC computer crashed, you would be S.O.L. without any redundancy designed in ...and without audio ...as brilliant as the software may be.

Mark

[ffarrell]

Cool

thanks
fvf


Hi Frank,
The house engineer had just installed the updates. He thinks it might have been the TrueTrace spectrum analyzer plug-in, but he wasn't sure. That was the only thing he was running while distributing my feeds to his various locations, AFAIK.

There's a log somewhere in the system, and he was going to look at it to see if it indicated where the problem was

Ira

[ffarrell]

Mark:

Your right, but I would suggest that a closer parallel would be SAC main system would be like the D-Show DSP cards and the system software controlling the DSP cards would be more like a SAC remote.

So if the SAC remote crashes audio still passes in the main system.

I have in my testing of D Show, ( I've been a beta tester for 3 years) I've been able to crash the DSP cards and stop audio. But you have to be tiring to do this. ( not easy ) Most end user would not be able to.


I will also state that D-Show is kind'a like apple controlling the Apps for the I Phone, in as mush as Digidesign controls the plug ins and they must be TDM.


thanks
fvf







That is because the D-show is designed with multiple redundant back up systems to keep working under a system failure. It will continue to pass audio.

You are incorrect about adjustments. During a system failure ...even a hard drive crash and a blue screen ....the Venue retains fader and mute control. You can still mix levels, although you need to reboot for plug-in and other software access. At least that is what I have been advised by Venue tech support.

On the other hand, if SAC computer crashed, you would be S.O.L. without any redundancy designed in ...and without audio ...as brilliant as the software may be.

Mark

[dbarrow]

That is because the D-show is designed with multiple redundant back up systems to keep working under a system failure. It will continue to pass audio.

You are incorrect about adjustments. During a system failure ...even a hard drive crash and a blue screen ....the Venue retains fader and mute control. You can still mix levels, although you need to reboot for plug-in and other software access. At least that is what I have been advised by Venue tech support.

On the other hand, if SAC computer crashed, you would be S.O.L. without any redundancy designed in ...and without audio ...as brilliant as the software may be.

MarkFor the money, you could have redundant SAC setups and some way of switching between them in a friendly manner.

[Brent Evans]

For the money, you could have redundant SAC setups and some way of switching between them in a friendly manner.

Two PCs with matching MADI cards?

[dbarrow]

Two PCs with matching MADI cards?Perhaps RME will make some kind of redundant failsafe MADI switcher. I know lots of big shows have redundant ProTools rigs for their backing tracks. What do they use to switch those? I have read interviews somewhere where the ProTools engineer was talking about how the redundant rig would seamlessly kick in when there was a problem with the main rig. How does that happen? However it does might be an option for SAC redundancy.

[Brent Evans]

Perhaps RME will make some kind of redundant failsafe MADI switcher. I know lots of big shows have redundant ProTools rigs for their backing tracks. What do they use to switch those? I have read interviews somewhere where the ProTools engineer was talking about how the redundant rig would seamlessly kick in when there was a problem with the main rig. How does that happen? However it does might be an option for SAC redundancy.

There are plenty of ways to make this happen, even now. Since MADI connects in a loop, two PCs stacked on top of each other, both with access to the MADI loop, on independent hard power switches. Both run simultaneously, same mix session, which could even be saved to a NAS. If the primary goes down, kill the power and go live on the engine of the second PC. The result is a very short downtime.

However, one must point out that we've only ever had one catastrophic failure report, and it was very likely that was due to damaged hardware, so this is mostly academic anyway.

[hclague]

However, one must point out that we've only ever had one catastrophic failure report, and it was very likely that was due to damaged hardware, so this is mostly academic anyway.

Hi Brent

If you are refering to my experience with the PC going down, I am in the process of building a second SAC Computer to carry for Backup. If I'm going to fully commit to SAC. I believe this is a Must.

Hal

[Brent Evans]

Hi Brent

If you are refering to my experience with the PC going down, I am in the process of building a second SAC Computer to carry for Backup. If I'm going to fully commit to SAC. I believe this is a Must.

Hal

Indeed it may be for some, and I think there are some really good ways to implement that, perhaps with MADI, as I mentioned above. Many of us can however, do quite well with a single dedicated host machine, especially in installed situations.

[mycorn]

actually it's not academic as i'v had a couple
of boot failures in my rig

one of them at a load in a couple weeks ago

installs and mobile rigs are two different animals

so far
yankin' the lid and reseating cards/memory
has fixed whatever was wrong

i assembled my machines so i have no qualms about
pulling the tops and going in

and they were built with the express
purpose of being rolled in and out of a trailer...

shock racks, cable strain relief, two bootable drives, etc. and i roll that rack
even if i do have hands or the band wants to help

and there's a "redundant" spare rig in the trailer

point being
even in a rackmount case PC's [MB cpu fans and hard drives mostly]
weren't really designed
to be abused by road warriors

i'm always careful and have had a few issues anyway

i work in some environs that can
only be classed as hostile

i'v seen more 100 degree days in a dust bowl
than a normal PC would see in 100 lifetimes
and there's no heat in my shop in the winter

it's about maintenance and
i carry spares

in my business plan
the beauty of this whole thing is that
i can carry spares and still be tons cheaper than a
dedicated mix surface

ymmv

[Mark Stebbeds]

point being
even in a rackmount case PC's [MB cpu fans and hard drives mostly]
weren't really designed
to be abused by road warriors


People bust my chops all the time for saying this ...get a Mac.

I'm not familiar with the latest rack mountable PC cases, but a Mac is built like a tank, and has some weight to show it.

It takes about two seconds to release the side panel and have access to everything inside ...essentially dust free ...and the hard drives slide right out so you can pop a new one back in instantly and be up and running. No taking apart of cases and digging around through a bunch of cables and dust bunnies. They cost a few bucks more, but worth every penny if built quality is important to you.

I believe there is a third party company that makes a rack mount mod for the Mac Pro, but most people just build a compartment into a rack that also serves as a "desk" for the keyboard and monitor.

When I communicated with the Venue tech support guy I was advised that their hard drives are externally accessible on "sleds". Haven't seen that, but sounds convenient.

Mark

[IraSeigel]

Geez, people. What's the big deal? I'm having great success with an old Thinkpad. A decent shock-absorbing shoulder bag is all I'm using. Try Panasonic Toughbook or another ruggedized laptop if you need to.

If you really want a desktop machine, then travel with the hard drives removed and protected. They're the most fragile part of a system like that, although there are other parts that don't take too kindly to being bounced around in a truck, either.

[Wink0r]

People bust my chops all the time for saying this ...get a Mac.
Are you hard at work coding up the version of SAC that runs on a Mac??

[hclague]

it's about maintenance and
i carry spares


Exactly. In my case it was a power supply that went bad. Strange thing was the MB still showed power ( little internal green light ), but it wouldn't boot. In the middle of a show there is no way I'd have time to swap a power supply, thus an entire spare PC is the way to go. I'm also thinking of pulling the second harddrive where I store all my mix files out of the main case and putting it in one of those portable housings to make the switchover almost seamless.

Hal

[905shmick]

I can swap both of my hard drives without removing my pc from the rack or popping the lid. My rme cards and memory are also easily removable once I pop the lid. "get a mac" is a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. Also, good luck getting what should be off the shelf parts such as a power supply for your mac pro.

You can build at least 2 complete SAC hosts including RME cards for the cost of a a single mac pro.

[Mark Stebbeds]

Are you hard at work coding up the version of SAC that runs on a Mac??

No, that's not necessary. When you weren't paying attention, Mac provided Bootcamp software for free, which allows you to run Windows on a Mac ..quite successfully, and used by several SS users ...for YEARS.:rolleyes:

Mark

[905shmick]

No, that's not necessary. When you weren't paying attention, Mac provided Bootcamp software for free, which allows you to run Windows on a Mac ..quite successfully, and used by several SS users ...for YEARS.:rolleyes:

Mark

We're talking about SAC here, not SS. Try to stay on topic.

[Mark Stebbeds]

I can swap both of my hard drives without removing my pc from the rack or popping the lid.


The poster to which I was replying was specific about popping the lid.


My rme cards and memory are also easily removable once I pop the lid.

Oh, so you gotta pop the lid too.


"get a mac" is a solution to a problem that doesnt exist.

Unless your interested in superior build quality and time tested reliability of a system used by most professionals in the music business. Others use the cheapest thing they can find and pretend. Of course it works ...until you have to move it.



Also, good luck getting what should be off the shelf parts such as a power supply for your mac pro.

No worries. They're ubiquitous. Of course they don't fail as often as the home made cheap PC boxes. In my personal experience, I've never had a Mac PS fail ever, just like I've never had an analog or digital console fail ...ever. I've lost several "off the shelf" power supplies on various PCs.


You can build at least 2 complete SAC hosts including RME cards for the cost of a a single mac pro.

Yeah, we know you can build cheap stuff. Who can't. Been there, done that. You get what you pay for. Cheap as possible is a budget consideration, not a comment on quality or reliability.

Hey, whatever happened to your comment about how Macs take forever to fix, but PC repair happens ...on location .... immediately? You never replied. You have "hundreds" of systems out, right? We could all benefit from your miraculous service experience.


I work for a company that has a large PC and Mac install base (hundreds of both) and I can tell you that the level of service and turnaround times has always been better with the PCs than the Macs.
<snip>
On the other hand, when our PCs need to be repaired, they send someone on site to repair them and they're usually fixed within 24-48 hours.

So who is "they"? Enlighten us with your superior access to immediate support. I've been waiting on that one. Try to stay on topic.

When you're at it, how about a link to some of the gigs you've done ...or maybe a link to your "sound company" website.

Mark

[905shmick]

They = Dell (http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/services/client_support/4hour_svc?c=us&l=en&cs=555)

Yeah, you have to pop the lid to replace major components on a PC or Mac. I was just letting you know it can be as simple to do on a PC as it is on a mac.

The whole mac = superior build quality is completely laughable and shows that you havent been using macs for long, cuz even the most hardcore mac fan boy wouldn't say such things. Here's some light reading for you http://www.appledefects.com/

[gdougherty]

Mark, this is all laughable now. Outside a slick case design, there's no real difference between a mac and the rackmount pc I roll around as my SAC host. The Gigabyte MB is solidly built, the CPU is the same, as is the memory. Big deal about bootcamp. I can run OSX on my desktop. The Hard drives have been the same in the Mac and PC world since long before Apple went Intel. As for all your slick pop-open case design stuff, Dell's been building them like that for years as well. Dell support is still one of thebest out there. Onsite, next business day or better. It's the reason I recommend them to all my business clients. Diagnose an issue with Dell on the phone and the next day I have a tech onsite replacing the part for me. Not that it's that frequently needed. I've used it about 10 times in at least 15 years in the industry. Unfortunately not everything's been a Dell and not everybody buys more than the one year basic warranty.

For those talking about hard drives, other than SSD, the WD Caviar Black series are worth every penny. Platter spindle is anchored securely at both ends for consistent performance and the heads park off the platter surface on a plastic holder to prevent damage to the platter or the head. You pay a bit more, but not exhorbitantly so. A 750GB is only $80 at NewEgg. I still have two in-case :)

[Naturally Digital]

I know lots of big shows have redundant ProTools rigs for their backing tracks. What do they use to switch those? I have read interviews somewhere where the ProTools engineer was talking about how the redundant rig would seamlessly kick in when there was a problem with the main rig. How does that happen?http://www.radialeng.com/re-sw8.htm

[RBIngraham]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYCpCeU_cRk&feature=related

Enjoy. :D

[Brent Evans]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYCpCeU_cRk&feature=related

Enjoy. :D

This one's better...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZtbshemzq8&feature=related

[RBIngraham]

This one's better...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZtbshemzq8&feature=related

Funny, but the point was ALL COMPUTERS SUCK. Just deal with it. :p

[Brent Evans]

Funny, but the point was ALL COMPUTERS SUCK. Just deal with it. :p

I know. Since all computers suck, which one would you rather have?

[Ogmeister]

Computers suck! Yes they do!
Failure of computers is inevitable so plan for it or die!!

I have spare SAC computer and an analog backup on every job.

So far we have had only one failure and it was a power supply that went down on the very end of the show. We tossed in the backup computer and were up in 5 minutes.

I have seen very view audio systems that did not have a single failure point.

There is always the danger of the show being interrupted. What counts is how you deal with it and do you have the equipment, tools and skill to get it up again quickly.

I have been used to carrying spares so this is not new to me.
I think most bands doing local stuff have not had to do this or ever even thought about it.

Perhaps we should start a discussion of how some of us are dealing with this.


Bob I am sure has had to deal with some of this on his big casino installs.

[RBIngraham]

I know. Since all computers suck, which one would you rather have?

Ok, well in all seriousness then... I pick the application I like best and that I want to use for a particular task. Then I use the platform that will run it the best. At least when I have my choice anyway. I don't always of course because money doesn't grow on trees. But ideally that is the way I like to work. I don't give a hoot what the case looks like and I don't really care who makes the OS. I just want it to do what I'm trying to achieve that is all. Nothing more, nothing less. There are things that I think are cool about both major platforms and things I hate about both of them as well.

I am mainly a PC based person, but that has a lot to do with money and the fact that when I built my first DAW there were two options in Mac land, really crappy SoundEdit 16 from Macromedia or $10K Sound Tools rig. (that price might be off I don't remember, but I know it was way out of my budget) So I got a PC instead, with a Turtle Beach Tahiti card and Sound Forge and it just grew from there. By the time there were reasonably priced alternatives on the Mac, I already had way too much invested in Windows land to swap it out. It didn't hurt that I was already familiar with DOS/Windows based machines because unlike what most Schools pushed on you when I was in grade/high school my dad knew an IBM compatible is what I would run into in the business world so he set up one in our home for me to work on. (well after Commodore called it quits anyway... :()

One of the venues I worked at owned a copy of SAW (in it's very early days) and I can remember being blown away that we could do 8 or maybe it was 4 track recording (I forget now... I've slept since then) on a PC. :)

There are several tools I have that I love that are only PC based. And there are a few that are only Mac based. So ideally I want both platforms available to me at all times. I'm sure if I was trying to run a server farm or I was a serious IT person, I would want a bunch of Linux boxes.

Point is... it's the software for me. Not the hardware.

Also all these digital consoles and light boards and stuff are just computers in a fancy box. They can (and at some point will) all screw up and then they suck too. Lightboards seem to act even more like your typical computer than the digital consoles do, so at least us sound folks have some advantages. :)

[Brent Evans]

Ok, well in all seriousness then...

I wasn't being at all serious. :D

[Doug_Danforth]

OK, All this talk about dead power supplies and failing hard drives has convinced me that I need to consider an emergency backup plan in case our SAC computer croaks.

Since I always take my laptop (Core2Duo, 4GB RAM,) and use it as a remote, I'm thinking that perhaps the cheapest and easiest emergency backup solution would be to get an external sound card or somethinglikethat for the laptop. I could keep a copy of SAC loaded with a recent mix session and if the main PC dies then just hook up the external card, connect it to one of the ADA8000s and be off and running with a simplified system to get through the gig.

Does this make sense? If so, what would be the least expensive unit I could get?

Thanks,

Doug

[Ogmeister]

OK, All this talk about dead power supplies and failing hard drives has convinced me that I need to consider an emergency backup plan in case our SAC computer croaks.

Since I always take my laptop (Core2Duo, 4GB RAM,) and use it as a remote, I'm thinking that perhaps the cheapest and easiest emergency backup solution would be to get an external sound card or somethinglikethat for the laptop. I could keep a copy of SAC loaded with a recent mix session and if the main PC dies then just hook up the external card, connect it to one of the ADA8000s and be off and running with a simplified system to get through the gig.

Does this make sense? If so, what would be the least expensive unit I could get?

Thanks,

Doug
I kept my eyes on eBay for the RME Digiface with express card or PCMCIA.
I was able to pick these up pretty cheap about 400.00 for one of them
It can do 24 channels of ADAT. I use this with my Laptop for smaller jobs.
The ADA8000 can just link right in.

[gdougherty]

OK, All this talk about dead power supplies and failing hard drives has convinced me that I need to consider an emergency backup plan in case our SAC computer croaks.

Since I always take my laptop (Core2Duo, 4GB RAM,) and use it as a remote, I'm thinking that perhaps the cheapest and easiest emergency backup solution would be to get an external sound card or somethinglikethat for the laptop. I could keep a copy of SAC loaded with a recent mix session and if the main PC dies then just hook up the external card, connect it to one of the ADA8000s and be off and running with a simplified system to get through the gig.

Does this make sense? If so, what would be the least expensive unit I could get?

Thanks,

Doug

Consider storing all your mix session stuff, if not the entire SAC install on a flash drive. Fast 8-16GB drives are reasonably cheap. Plug it into the laptop and load your last saved session. Just make sure to arrange all your routing the same way.

[Doug_Danforth]

I kept my eyes on eBay for the RME Digiface with express card or PCMCIA.
I was able to pick these up pretty cheap about 400.00 for one of them
It can do 24 channels of ADAT. I use this with my Laptop for smaller jobs.
The ADA8000 can just link right in.

$400 - YIkes! That's more than I paid for the card in my main system. Is that the cheapest solution? I doubt we'd want to spend that much for something we would hopefully never have to use.

Probably easiest to just pack the old 8 channel analog board in the trailer and press that into service if SAC goes down.

Doug

[Guitarkeys.com]

Percentage wise, I think it best to have a spare hard drive and spare ADA8000 solution.

I will always have my 100' snake and analog mixer as well. But I always had a spare mixer I carried in case my other mixer went down (with the knobs pre-set).

[RBIngraham]

$400 - YIkes! That's more than I paid for the card in my main system. Is that the cheapest solution? I doubt we'd want to spend that much for something we would hopefully never have to use.

Probably easiest to just pack the old 8 channel analog board in the trailer and press that into service if SAC goes down.

Doug

Laptop solutions are always going to be a lot more pricey most days. At least for good stuff anyway.

Rather than trying to have a complete back up system, I would concentrate on the things most likely to fail. First on the list would be the ADA8000s if that is what you are using. If you don't have to lug things around all the time, as in setting up and tearing down every night, I think a spare desktop and sound card would be the way to go in my opinion anyway. Other wise I might just keep a spare hard drive in a drive caddy so I could swap out the hard drive quickly and easily. Those are probably your mostly likely failure points to me anyway.

In reality most places I work just don't have all sorts of spares kicking around. I do my best to make clients realize where they might be vunarable, but if they don't have the funds to really pay me what my SAC and SFX playback rigs are worth in the first place, they certainly don't have the funds for fully redundant rigs. So I just try to make them aware.

Most theatres anyway are somewhat used to it. The lightboards fail far more often. LOL. :p The small budget companies just realize that there are some weak links where one small failure and we might have to stop the show. I guess that's the difference with theatre huh? We would actually stop the show, try and fix the problem, and then move on or cancel the show if it was really bad.

[IraSeigel]

I think if it goes in the back of a truck, it's prone to fail. Air ride or not, shock-mount case or not.

If you really need a desktop CPU, then carry it with you on a car seat or in the cab of your truck. Don't put it in a rack that's going to get lots of bumps in the back of a truck, or rolling over cables or ruts at a fairground or club, etc. It's not only the HD that's very fragile. It's all the memory chips and other multipin connections.

That's why I suggested a ruggedized notebook - you're carrying it on your shoulder (usually) - that's WAY more shock-absorbing than a shock mount case in a truck.

Ira

[RBIngraham]

I think if it goes in the back of a truck, it's prone to fail. Air ride or not, shock-mount case or not.

If you really need a desktop CPU, then carry it with you on a car seat or in the cab of your truck. Don't put it in a rack that's going to get lots of bumps in the back of a truck, or rolling over cables or ruts at a fairground or club, etc. It's not only the HD that's very fragile. It's all the memory chips and other multipin connections.

That's why I suggested a ruggedized notebook - you're carrying it on your shoulder (usually) - that's WAY more shock-absorbing than a shock mount case in a truck.

Ira

Ira,

There are dozens of computer that get bounced around all over the country on every Broadway level theatre tour out there. And of course there are failures at some point, but the "big boys" just have as much redundancy as they can possibly afford and as much of it as possible is "on line" so you can switch from main to back up with the flip of a switch if possible. Of course when the tickets are $100 plus each, then you can afford that level of gear and having a show canceled could cost a large sum of money.

[mycorn]

I think if it goes in the back of a truck, it's prone to fail. Air ride or not, shock-mount case or not.
Ira

absolutely true

and a milspec notebook is not a bad idea
[or a cheap one]

i'v been lucky on ebay and CL
and have assembled PC's since a 80286 was hot snot

it's not hard to build a road worthy rig

like anything
throw some money at it

i'v had one issue at a gig [that wasnt jus me being an idiot]
in the almost 2 years since we got the beta
and i had it sorted in a couple of minutes

i wanted the channel count and stability
of PCI cards after experimenting with firewire

and i'm happy to carry a bunch of extra krap

ymmv