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Jesse Skeens
06-06-2004, 12:45 AM
Is there a way to send out to an external device and back in again on one of the channel inserts?

Bob L
06-06-2004, 08:47 AM
Yes... you can setup an Aux Send Master to send data out to any of the soundcard outputs... take the Aux Send Master Out Assign off of Virtual and set it to a device out... then you can do the same for the Return underneath it... take its Input Source off of virtual and set it to a device in...

Loop the device out and in that you assigned through your external processing gear and you are all set.

Make sure to assign the Return track into the mix bus (usually out 1)... when you play, you should hear all channel signals sent to the aux send routed thru your effects box live during playback.

The only thing to realize here is that you can no longer build mixes because the effect must be processed in realtime since it is hardware... so you do mixdowns the old fashioned way of playing the entire session and capturing the results on a 2-track tape or DAT or looping the signal back to SAWStudio and recording live on another track.

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
06-06-2004, 08:58 AM
Also note that the track will be delayed by: Number of buffers * Size of buffers * 2. Then tack on the natural latency of your converters * 2. This is how many samples the track will now be delayed, as it would be in ANY daw.

To find out how many milliseconds this is (# of samples / (samplerate / 1000)).

So this means with a buffer of 2x92 (which I normally work at), on motu 896 converters. at 48khz, I must shift it back 214 samples, or 4.5ms. But I am almost rid of all my external hardware. Sawstudio's quite nicely replaced most all of it except the pre's.

Jesse Skeens
06-06-2004, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the info guys. I had a feeling the aux way was the route to go. I wonder if a plugin could be devloped that would be insterted on a pre/post patch and have I/O points to route from external sources that way we could keep it all on the original channel instead fo having to add an aux into the equation. Either way it gets the job done.

So as far as the latency involved all I have to do is load the compensator plug on the aux and I'm good to go? Or would that plug go on the source channel?

As far as getting rid of outboard, yes I am there too but have a few boxes I wont be getting rid of soon.

Jesse

Bob L
06-06-2004, 12:32 PM
Robert,

No delay in SAWStudio... the engine is is a split design when routing through the aux sends and returns as I described... the aux data goes out ahead of the MultiTrack data so the return signal can then be automatically resynced... live in realtime... try it... use large buffers and watch the Aux Master meters... you will notice that they are ahead of the the regular channel meters... the result is no delay or latency between the straight and processed signal through the external devices.

This was one of the first design elements perfected in the SAWStudio engine... long before the ability to do small buffer sizes was possible.

Bob L

Jesse Skeens
06-06-2004, 01:18 PM
Robert,

No delay in SAWStudio... the engine is is a split design when routing through the aux sends and returns as I described... the aux data goes out ahead of the MultiTrack data so the return signal can then be automatically resynced... live in realtime... try it... use large buffers and watch the Aux Master meters... you will notice that they are ahead of the the regular channel meters... the result is no delay or latency between the straight and processed signal through the external devices.

This was one of the first design elements perfected in the SAWStudio engine... long before the ability to do small buffer sizes was possible.

Bob L

What a great feature.

AudioAstronomer
06-06-2004, 01:25 PM
Robert,

No delay in SAWStudio... the engine is is a split design when routing through the aux sends and returns as I described... the aux data goes out ahead of the MultiTrack data so the return signal can then be automatically resynced... live in realtime... try it... use large buffers and watch the Aux Master meters... you will notice that they are ahead of the the regular channel meters... the result is no delay or latency between the straight and processed signal through the external devices.

This was one of the first design elements perfected in the SAWStudio engine... long before the ability to do small buffer sizes was possible.

Bob L

I will try bob. Thanks. Every other DAW requires latency compensation when running through outboard, I hadn't even tried before I spoke up :)

AudioAstronomer
06-12-2004, 10:34 AM
Just to bring this back up. Would it be possible to add a realtime mix function? going in and out and in and out of the converters is bleh for a mix. Im willing to sacrifice it for some hardware effects, but not the whole mix.... [edit] then again, just use the digital I/O I could. duh.


Also, will it be possible to do this on a per-track basis anytime soon or ever? That would be just too neat. Really hard to find a good software reverb these days, at least ones that are non-linear in nature.

Bob L
06-12-2004, 11:23 AM
I'm not sure I understand the question Robert... could you elaborate a little more?

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
06-12-2004, 11:33 AM
Ok, say I have some nice external compressors, reverbs, etc... (which I just sold msot of damnit). And I want to place said external device as an insert in the channel strip of a single channel.

Would it be possible to allow this to happen? Using AUX does indeed work, but often I use up most of my AUX sends doing other things.

does this make more sense now? Being able to use hardware inserts, with no latency, on specific tracks, but before sawstudio's native EQ/comp/fader/pan etc... Or maybe even after if the user wanted.

I do understand sawstudio was created to replace most external things, but there's just times when an orville kills any plugin offerings.

Bob L
06-12-2004, 02:57 PM
Robert,

I see what you are asking... unfortunately... no... no live inserts within the channel strip... the engine is not currently designed with that in mind.

Something to think about for a way future update when the next engine evolution arrives... :)

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
06-12-2004, 03:08 PM
With that in mind, would it be possible up the number of auxillary channels? I know this would indeed be a burden as well....

But one must realize saw is the only software that can do hardware inserts with NO incurred latency (yes, nuendo/logic/pt do hardware inserts, but with latency. though nuendo and logic I beleive compensate, this adds to engine latency). this is a very very amazing thing from an industry perspective. Maybe more understandable to prospective customers than most of saw's other amazing features.

Pedro Itriago
06-12-2004, 03:48 PM
http://www.jms-audioware.com/jmsbuss.htm

Shawn
06-12-2004, 03:49 PM
would it be possible up the number of auxillary channels? I know this would indeed be a burden as well....


I know I could certainly use 2 more auxes, I wouldn't mind at all if a couple more popped in there!! 6 is nice, but 8 would be great!! :)

TotalSonic
06-12-2004, 03:59 PM
I know I could certainly use 2 more auxes, I wouldn't mind at all if a couple more popped in there!! 6 is nice, but 8 would be great!! :)

ummm - the JMS Buss Extension that Pedro has pointed out IS 8 more auxes! :)
You just have to return them to other input channels or aux return channels.
It also allows you to rout back from auxes to other auxes
http://www.jms-audioware.com/jmsbuss.htm

Best regards,
Steve Berson

AudioAstronomer
06-12-2004, 04:37 PM
The jms plugin does not allow you to use another individual hardware effect patch. :(

There's also senderella and getout for this (jms return buss) purpose too, which I find work much nicer :) Either way :)

Shawn
06-12-2004, 07:14 PM
I have and use the JMS bus extention, and find it a great work-around to the 6 auxes that SS has right now, but the truth is, it's another window that needs to be left open, or navigated to, and then opened to make adjustments when being used to generate seperate headphone mixes during recording, or to generate stage monitor mixes when used "live", whether recording or not, it's just easier to use the aux section of the virtual console, and honestly... is there ANYONE who couldn't use a couple more auxes built into SS? :)

If SS had 2 more auxes, I think I might be able to get away with not needing to use the buss extention anymore, at least for monitoring, it will still be useful for doing interesting internal routing while mixing, but the less plugins I have to open/close or leave sitting open on the screen while recording, the better. :D

Bob L
06-12-2004, 09:54 PM
Let's put that one to rest right now... :)

The auxes are a huge internal load on the engine... 6 is what I found workable and that is most likely where it will stay... again, until the next major engine revision in the future.

I have been in the recording business for over 30 years and mixed a heck of a lot of sessions on some of the largest consoles in the industry... and it was a rare instance that I had more than 6 auxes to work with... most of the time 4 was more common... I think the 6 SAWStudio gives you now should hold you guys for a while... there are plenty of other things to investigate. :)

Bob L

Magnet
06-08-2006, 12:23 PM
The Aux-Send-Return processing loop is a great feature. I wondering how you suggest recording the hardware output back on a SS track.
I went out to a hardware compressor through send 1 and returned back into return #1 using the in and outs of our interface and everything sounded in sync. So then i took the Compressor output that was patched to aux return 1 and moved it to another soundcard input to record it back onto a Sawstudio track, when i did this the signal was way out of sync on the newly recorded track.:confused:
So how do you suggest printing the hardware back in sync? Am i missing something?

Thanks for you help
magnet

Pedro Itriago
06-08-2006, 12:30 PM
The saw compressor (or any other compressor plug-in for that matter) changes buffers sizes, thus their latencies are variable and cannot be properly compensated.

Bruce Callaway
06-08-2006, 03:07 PM
I have been in the recording business for over 30 years and mixed a heck of a lot of sessions on some of the largest consoles in the industry... and it was a rare instance that I had more than 6 auxes to work with... most of the time 4 was more common... I think the 6 SAWStudio gives you now should hold you guys for a while... there are plenty of other things to investigate. :)

Bob LFWIW I agree, I usually use 4 aux channels and rarely have used all six. I guess its what you are used to.

Ian Alexander
06-09-2006, 05:38 AM
The saw compressor (or any other compressor plug-in for that matter) changes buffers sizes, thus their latencies are variable and cannot be properly compensated.
According to his Bob-ness, the Levelizer plugin changes buffer sizes, but the channel comp does not. This is so the channel comp can be used in Live Mode.
http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4181

Bob L
06-09-2006, 10:59 AM
To record the return signal you do have to return thru an input channel assigned to a device input.

The latency will become the buffer setup latency... so you will have to use low settings like 3 x 128 or less... just as you would for using SS as a live console.

The special loop of aux send return to and from hardware allows you to keep sync with very high buffer settings... but it is a special internal slipping of two engines and can only work within that special routing.

Bob L