Setting Up SAC

[connifboudoin]

OK, I have started putting together what will be my new SAC Console. I have the software, I have a couple of basic plugins to get me started and I have ordered the PC with the motherboard that Tatkin has suggested. In a couple of weeks I plan to order the RME Raydat card and a couple of preamps to get me started.

I have started laying out my basic channels that I would use for a festival and doing all the patching within the software. I come up with questions then dig around some more then I usually find what I'm looking for. I have laid out the following channels as a starting point:
1. Kick- inside 25. Left Keys 4 Stage Right
2. Kick - at the hole 26. Right Keys 4 Stage Right
3. Snare 27. Accordian
4. Hi-Hat 28. Vocal 1
5. Tom-1 29. Vocal 2
6. Tom-2 30. Vocal 3
7. Tom-3 31. Vocal 4
8. Tom-4 32. Vocal 5
9. OH-1 33. Vocal 6
10. OH-2 34. Vocal 7
11. Drum Pad 35. Vocal 8
12. Drum Machine 36. Horn 1 Stage Left
13. Bass Stage Left 37. Horn 2 Stage Left
14. Bass Stage Right 38. Horn 3 Stage Left
15. Guitar 1 Stage Left 39. Horn 4 Stage Left
16. Guitar 2 Stage Left 40. Horn 5 Stage Right
17. Guitar 3 Stage Right 41. Horn 5 Stage Right
18. Guitar 4 Stage Right 42. Horn 6 Stage Right
19. Left Keys 1 Stage Left 43. Horn 7 Stage Right
20. Right Keys 1 Stage Left 44. Horn 8 Stage Right
21. Left Keys 2 Stage Left 45. Talkback Mic
22. Right Keys 2 Stage Left 46. Matrix Input
23. Left Keys 3 Stage Right 47. Playback
24. Right Keys 3 Stage Right 48. Playback

I have setup several sub groups for Drums and Bass, Guitars, Keys, Vocals, Horns. Then from the sub groups I assigned to main outs.

One thing I am trying to do now is setup a matrix mix. I have setup multiple sub groups by routing all my channels to virtual outs then back to the main outs. I would like to be able to also setup that matrix like my analog board by being able to assign the following things to the matrix output. Any one of the sub groups, at any volume without adjusting the subgroup itself because that will affect FOH, The main outs at any level so it doesnt effect FOH. Not sure whats the best way to set that up. We use the Matrix out to feed a FOH mix back to ears from an input channel. So I use and output from the matrix and feed that into an input channel that I can use as an intrument to put into any mix that I want.

Next how would I go about putting FX into my monitors? Not all acts want it but some do ask.
Thanks

[Bob L]

You would use a new monitor mixer in place of matrix outs... a whole new mixer can be be setup from one of the pre or post tap points.

Each mixer is used for monitors or matrix feeds and it can have its own reverb or can tap the reverb from FOH Return Chans.

Bob L

[Phil]

not entirely sure about the matrix. i'd image if you where to duplicare the FOH subgrouping in another mixer, set the inputs to post fader and the levels to unity. were in gets fuzzy is looping back to an input. at this point you have a monitor mix ready. need another, you have 23 more. FX can either be recreated in each monitor or select a FOH feed for the aux return. mute the return when not wanted. default is virtual so the master send feeds the return. i use post fader from FOH. are you planning to have remotes for musicians to fine tune. or a remote for a mon mix tech, there are 2 independent solo buses. SAC has options not even available to high end digital consoles. thinking outside the box is helpful. check out richard ingrams site, he has a good signal flow chart that helped me a lot. hope this helps.

[gdougherty]

If you don't need to process a subgroup with fx, I tend to use Group Latches instead of routing signal through the subgroups to the master. I'm not sure, but with one less step of mixing and routing it might make a slight performance difference.

[connifboudoin]

Ok I set up one of the Monitor Mixes as a Matrix Mixer. I am able to get all the groups setup, but how do I get the FOH groups to feed these groups in the Matrix Mixer I just built. Same with FOH mix, how do I get the FOH main out into this Matrix mix. Not sure how to map it. I can build my own mix but this not what I want. I want to have the FOH mix or output mapped to this matrix mixer along with the sub groups from FOH mix. I can now put individual channels in there too if I need.
Thanks

[Phil]

i don't think this parallels an analog matrix. what is the matrix feed?

[Bob L]

Connif,

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to do.

The idea of having completely separate mixers to feed different mixes... like your idea of matrixs... is a new concept never before available...

It is a very powerful way to work... but different than a typical matrix output...

If you just want certain instruments in the matrix output... you can just flip to a new monitor mixer and assign anything you want into that mixer output... like a matrix feed... but more powerful, because the signals can be tapped pre or post... etc... and you have different eq and fx... etc... if you want.

If you are trying to send a duplicate of the group mixes to another output, just assign the groups to another Master out on the FOH console.

Or... if you want a separate mix that chases what happens on the FOH, and you want to use group sub masters... then consider using the Group latch idea... this allows you mix from the vca type sub masters, but it actually controls the input chan faders directly, meaning that any other mixer tapped post FOH will chase perfectly allowing you to feed any different copmbination of chans into this new nix output.

Bob L

[connifboudoin]

Ok on a analog mixer and my LS-9 they both have 4 matrix outputs. In those outputs you can put a mix of any group, or Left and Right Main Outputs. So I was looking to setup the same thing up on SAC. If I want to put FOH in the output I dial the knobs marked left and right and that routes a variable signal that I can add more of or less of to this output. The same for any group on the board. That's it.

If I put another output and assign all the groups to it I have no way to adjust how much of each group sends to the output as well as the FOH mix. I have no way to adjust. What ever is coming from the groups is what you have. I need to be able to adjust the amount of each, feeding this Matrix output with out messing with the groups that are assigned to the Main output. I have setup another set of groups for Matrix feeds but that doesn't give me the FX that are inserted after the groups into the mains so I don't get my FX in the Matrix output. If I assign FX into the groups rather than into the mains then I need an FX for each group. Not a good way to do it I think. I have tried a bunch of different ways. Some times the brain just heads the wrong direction and I thought maybe someone could get me headed down a different path.

If I could assign a main output or vitual out to an input in one of the monitor mixers then problem would be solved. Just can't see a way or it can't be done. This is not a show stopper I was just looking for a way to do it the way we have always done it. I can just do like you said and put another output and assign everything to it just like the Main left and right output. If you think of something let me know.
Thanks

[Phil]

I think I understand you are looking for. Post fader sends from FOH subgroups to other input channels (not assigned to FOH subgroups) to pass on to Mon mixer. I've been testing an AUX BUS VST plug from solidsoundstudio.net. You could assign the send in the sub group and the corrosponding return in the channel you want to recieve audio. Set the input as "FX source" to turn the channel on (channels are off when not assigned to a source to conserve CPU flops) GREAT CARE MUST BE TAKEN AS YOU CAN CAUSE A FEEDBACK LOOP. (Insert imagary of robot from lost in space, DANGER Will Robinson)

Just a little out of the box thinking. TEST TEST TEST, and again TEST.

Pehaps assignable virtual busses might become a new feature from RML Labs. A feature I'd be happy to pay for ;)

[Bob L]

Are you using up the 8 FOH master outs? If not... then you can assign any of the groups to another 1 as a matrix out... and you can always directly assign any input to that master out also if you want that leaked in... or you can use a separate group fader and assign all the extra input chans you want to leak in... then assign that to the matrix outs...

Again... this is much different... but really much more versatile than what we have always had to work with... think differently and you will be rewarded and wonder how you ever mixed any other way. :)

If you just want another feed of the FOH... just assign things to another master out... and don't forget you have the 6 stereo aux sends which can be assigned to their own master outs... etc.

Also... realize that you have pretty much unlimited fx patches... you can use a comp on each input instead of trying to save by using one comp on an entire group... yes... not exactly the same result... but who's to say the old way is better... or just what you had to do in the past... individiual comps on each vocal is a beautiful thing.

I am considering adding a tap point into the monitor mixers from the subs... not quite sure yet how I want that to operate.

In the meantime... realize that each monitor mixer is like another giant aux send with taps from many different places on FOH... but with the possibility of having another engineer mixing that output or of having it chase the FOH inputs.

Bob L

[tatkin]

Ok on a analog mixer and my LS-9 they both have 4 matrix outputs. In those outputs you can put a mix of any group, or Left and Right Main Outputs. So I was looking to setup the same thing up on SAC. If I want to put FOH in the output I dial the knobs marked left and right and that routes a variable signal that I can add more of or less of to this output. The same for any group on the board. That's it.

If I put another output and assign all the groups to it I have no way to adjust how much of each group sends to the output as well as the FOH mix. I have no way to adjust. What ever is coming from the groups is what you have. I need to be able to adjust the amount of each, feeding this Matrix output with out messing with the groups that are assigned to the Main output. I have setup another set of groups for Matrix feeds but that doesn't give me the FX that are inserted after the groups into the mains so I don't get my FX in the Matrix output. If I assign FX into the groups rather than into the mains then I need an FX for each group. Not a good way to do it I think. I have tried a bunch of different ways. Some times the brain just heads the wrong direction and I thought maybe someone could get me headed down a different path.

If I could assign a main output or virtual out to an input in one of the monitor mixers then problem would be solved. Just can't see a way or it can't be done. This is not a show stopper I was just looking for a way to do it the way we have always done it. I can just do like you said and put another output and assign everything to it just like the Main left and right output. If you think of something let me know.
Thanks

I'll take a stab at this although I'm not near as experienced or proficient in SAC as others here;).
Lets look at 4 monitor mixers as the 4 matrix outputs. Now we'll work with just monitor mix 1 (Matrix 1). Lets say that's for your television feed...
1) Set each channel on M1 so that it taps Post Fader to the FOH Mix.
2) Set all the input gains to unity.
3) Assign all the inputs to output-9 (a Sub Output).
4) Assign output-9 to any number of physical outputs (1-8) to get the signal out to the real world and set them to unity.

Now... you can make adjustments to FOH and that will adjust the overall mix on M1. If you need to make an adjustment (say add more piano) in your matrix mix only, make the adjustment to M1s Piano channel instead of FOH. All effects, muting and processing on the individual channels will apply to M1 through the FOH mix. Of course, if you want to have a totally independent mix on M1 but still keep FOH EQ and Effects, then you could tap all the input channels FOH Pre-Fader but that would create more work. Look into the different tap points for channels... Most other boards don't have all these options so you can't do some of the cool things. Also moving the insert point for effects using preferences can do some cool things too (like tap post FX but pre-EQ if you put the FX insert point before the EQs on FOH...) When you want to adjust overall volume, you can use the M1-O9 (Subgroup) fader. Also, you can adjust individual M1 Main outs (1-8) to a relative volume to the subgroup. You can put any kind of individualized processing on the M1 outs you want that may be custom to where the TVs are or whatever.

Repeat for as many matrix outputs as you want (up to 24).

Remember that SAC doesn't function much like an analog board (or even another digital board) in many ways! It's much more powerful and doesn't need to do things as they do. Although, I will say I'd like to be able to assign sub-groups across mixers... Say FOH Sub-1 --> Mon-1 O-3 & Mon-2 O-4. However; each time I think that way I find that doing it SAC's way is better in the long run.

Hope this helps. It gets easier to understand if you load the demo program on something and play with it using the internal sound card and a microphone and headphones (My practice/experiment approach).

If I'm whacked out here I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable posters here will suggest something better or more correct:D

[connifboudoin]

Bob I have answered some of the questions you had and made comments in blue. Please don't take anything I wrote negatively because posting has no personality and can come off wrong sometime but I think this software is totally awsome and can't wait to get the rest of the hardware so I can get some audio going through it. I am using an external sound card to test and route things right now. You have answered every question I posted, and quickly, and I have heard nothing but good things about you on other websites even. I appreciate all the help from you and others on this forum. I have a good understanding of routing just not so much in SAC. I'll keep learning. I can honestly say I haven't been able to get away from this thing for the last 2 weeks.


Are you using up the 8 FOH master outs? No Only 3 presently. (FOH Left, Right, and Aux Sub Output) If not... then you can assign any of the groups to another 1 as a matrix out Then I don't have control of how much of each group gets put into that output., No Control)... and you can always directly assign any input to that master out also if you want that leaked in(don't need individual outputs just subgroups with independent control of how much of that group gets poured into the new output(Matrix output)... or you can use a separate group fader and assign all the extra input chans you want to leak in... (I did this but then the feed has no FX because FX or inserted after the sub groups) then assign that to the matrix outs...

Again... this is much different... but really much more versatile than what we have always had to work with... think differently and you will be rewarded and wonder how you ever mixed any other way. :)

If you just want another feed of the FOH... just assign things to another master out... (That works for FOH but still no FX because FX or inserted after )and don't forget you have the 6 stereo aux sends which can be assigned to their own master outs... etc. I am not looking for individual channels only FOH Mix and Sub groups with FX on an output. I know it can be done I just thought that I could get the output that will feed my PA from SAC into an input on one of the 24 mixes. No way to assign the physical output mix in one of the mixes, "no biggy". I'll do it another way. Not a problem.

Also... realize that you have pretty much unlimited fx patches... you can use a comp on each input instead of trying to save by using one comp on an entire group... yes... not exactly the same result... but who's to say the old way is better... or just what you had to do in the past... individiual comps on each vocal is a beautiful thing. yes I agree this a wonderful thing. My analog rack has 12 channels of gates and compressors SAC has all you want.

I am considering adding a tap point into the monitor mixers from the subs... not quite sure yet how I want that to operate. I really like this, Also a tap from any output to Monitors mixes. This would be awsome.

In the meantime... realize that each monitor mixer is like another giant aux send with taps from many different places on FOH... but with the possibility of having another engineer mixing that output or of having it chase the FOH inputs.

Bob L

[Wink0r]

I didn't check so I could be off base, but if you are using less than eight stereo subgroups you should be able to assign each input to two groups, one for your FOH and one for your matrix send. Then send one set of groups to the FOH and the other set to your matrix. you should also be able to double assign your effects and if you need separate levels go through a subgroup.

[gdougherty]

Connif, Bob and tatkin pretty much have how you'd do it.

Tap your channels post-fade FOH on a monitor mixer (I put my "matrix outputs" down at Monitor 20-24). On your aux channels where you see a box that says "virtual" change it to post-fade. That taps all your channels and aux/returns from the FOH and gets you duplicate post processed signals to mix. Select all your used channels and do a left-right-click to snap them all to Unity. At this point, with the exception of subgroup processing, your monitor mix matches the FOH and can be adjusted to taste by bumping individual channels up or down.

If you want to do something like a drum bus compressor, assign your FOH inputs to that subgroup. Otherwise, use your submasters as group latches and don't actually route audio through them as there's no need. With the exception of a subgroup that applies eq to wireless channels to kill feedback and a rare buss compressor across the drums, I ditched the idea of subgroups entirely. I grab my group latches and adjust groups that way.

I'd even suggest using two groups for something like drums where a subgroup processes it and a second acts as a group latch. Set your subgroup to unity, shuffle it to the end of the mixer and only touch the group latch for level changes. Then you could duplicate the subgroup setup on a monitor mixer, copy any fx processing from FOH, and the group latch would maintain the relative levels of input into the subgroups between the mixers. You'd still have to manually copy any fx changes on the subgroup between the mixers, but that's a quick few clicks to copy the fx, two keystrokes to change mixers and a few clicks to paste. If there's changes that you know need to be made to subgroup fx, you could store it all in a scene. Not quite as nice as subgroup taps from FOH, and certainly not as CPU efficient but it would work.

What's your purpose in using subgroups and fx processing? That may be a good point to step back to and start from.

[Phil]

I am considering adding a tap point into the monitor mixers from the subs... not quite sure yet how I want that to operate. I really like this, Also a tap from any output to Monitors mixes. This would be awsome.

In the meantime... realize that each monitor mixer is like another giant aux send with taps from many different places on FOH... but with the possibility of having another engineer mixing that output or of having it chase the FOH inputs.

Bob L

I think my earlier post doubled with Bob's while I was typing.

Try using a VST aux bus plug. That wll do what you want. Just be carefull, It's real easy to create a feedback loop

[Bob L]

Connif,

If you use the group masters as Group Latches... then the signal does not route thru the groups but stays at the input chans with the same kind of group mixing control... the difference is that now all mixers tapped post fader would chase the FOH mixing, even if all you move are the group faders, because all group input chans will move with the group fader...

So now you have up to 24 of the most powerful matrix sends you ever dreamed of... with eq, comps, and whatever else on each one... you control the level offset of each channel into the matrix and control the output with its own fx patching.

Each mixer becomes a completely independent mix of whatever chans you want and it can chase your FOH mix with a completely different chan offset if desired... or certain input chans can be left out of certain mixes.

Bob L

[RBIngraham]

Connif,

I ran into the same kind of thing as you are when I first started to use SAC. I also am very used to having Matrix Outputs. And while I still do miss them some days, with a bit of pre planning and changing of working habits, I have found the way SAC handles routing to be more useful than a handful of Matrix Outs. (an LS9 has 8 Matrix Outputs by the way..)

I'll tell you the way I have decided to work, it may be great for you, or you may hate it, I don't know. But it works for me and that's all I can tell you.

I set up my mixes pretty much as Tatkin describes. Although the one thing I do is that I don't actually bother to use the Master Outputs on the FOH mixer at all. (Outputs 1-8) So I only use the FOH mixer to control the levels and I use Output 9-24 as Group Latch Outputs. I use the FOH mixer for EQ and Dynamics on the individual inputs.

But I do ALL of my routing on Monitor mixers, even the FOH mix. Although for me my FOH mix is rarely a simple stereo mix. I usually have L-C-R or a better way to describe it would be I have separate speaker systems for vocals and orchestra, etc... So it's rare that I'm doing a simple stereo mix of much of anything.

Now I use this method because it also allows me to do things like have separate output EQs for wireless mics vs. Orchestra mics and it lets me deal with the monitor needs of musical theatre in a very flexible way, that probably doesn't fit your needs. But if you're used to dealing a lot with Matrix Mixes, it might be a method worth thinking about.

It keeps things a lot simpler on your FOH mixer and allows you just use that for mixing rather than mixing and routing. At least in my opinion anyway.

That's my suggestion, maybe it will work for you, don't know. :)