New guy, New system, Advice welcome.

[Frank DeWitt]

Hi all, I just got here.

I just received authorization to build and install a SAC mixer for our church / day school.

We have 35 inputs and about 25 outputs (16 for a existing IEM system)

The preamps will be in or next to the booth because we have a good snake in place so it is easy.

My hardware list it
Motu 2408 MKII
4 ADA 8000
2 BCF 2000
1 computer (3.2 gig min)
2 monitors
power strip
rack
Wireless Router
Software

I have time to buy it, build it, test it, and install it as we have a analog board that is working. The existing board is a Tascam M3500
Comments, suggestions, mine field sightings are welcome.

Thanks
Frank

http://lbpinc.com/DI.html

[ssrsound]

You're going to need a 2nd 2408, and probably one more ADA8000 to get 35 channels in. Other than that you're doing fine.

On the computer side, I'd get as fast a processor as you can (dual core, not quad), and look t the newest models (8500 or i7) because they get more speed per mhz. Probably get a SD drive as your main system drive. You'll end up with a screaming system at that point that can handle just about anything.

[Yogi]

Of the 36 inputs how many need microphone preamps vs. line level inputs? If it is a mix you may use up to 8 inputs per 2408 for those line level inputs and save a touch there. The output can definitely be from the 2408s. Since the 2408s are TRS you can easily do an adapter at the head end for 1/4" to xlr for line level stuff as long as the run is not too long.

I wouldn't bother with the BCF2000 until you see that you just can't work without it. I bought one and rarely use it (thought I would but in most cases it's just not necessary). I definitely wouldn't buy two until I tried the system with one. It's amazing how the paradigm changes once you get used to using only the keyboard and a mouse.

[Bob L]

Many successful builds here with E8400 or E8500 cpus and your choice of motherboard... these are on the way out now and can be found for a good price these days.

Otherwise... an I5 dual core would be my next choice... quad cores can get you into slipped buffer issues and can be a little harder to tame.

A single RME RAYDat card may be all you need if you can stop at 32 chans... otherwise 2 RME HDSP 24 chan cards would get you up to 48 chans.

Bob L

[Frank DeWitt]

Yogi, thanks for the tip. About 6 of my inputs are Line level

Bob, Nice to meet the owner. You seem to be leaning towards RME instead of the 2408 MKII

If I go used on the 2408 MKII then it is a lot less then the RME Are there reasons to go RME anyway?

Thanks

Frank

[Bob L]

Most of us have found the RME drivers to be the most stable and highest performance... but... many are successfully using the MOTU boxes also... so either seems to be a good choice.

Bob L

[gdougherty]

Not to take SAW sales away from Bob, but if you might like to record and don't have the budget or justification for SAW the RME hardware will allow multiple apps to access the inputs. I track in Reaper with my RayDAT while I mix in SAC.

If you'd like auto-channel labels, the ability to do virtual sound checks or train engineers with virtual bands then you'll want to look towards SAW.

[mojogil]

My two cents:
SAC and SAW work so well together I can't imagine tracking live any other way. I also use an eight channel fader pack because I can't seem to get fast enough with a mouse. Others here prefer the mouse. I recommend pcie over firewire to get lower latency but I wouldn't hesitate using firewire in a pinch for a show. I use Raydat with great success.
Gil

[Frank DeWitt]

Thanks to all so far.

We will be recording our church service. We do it now but we will use a second computer and a separate monitor console "mixer" and record it Mono to a hard drive using EZTrackerCD We are all volunteer and we just don't have the time to do a mix down at a later date. Also we hand out CDs for members to take to shut ins 10 min after the service.

To clarify. A second separate monitor console running on the record computer (Not the SAC computer) sends it's output to a D/A and it goes out as a audio signal to the sound card of the second computer. That computer is also running EZtrackerCD which saves it as a series of Wav files already to burn at the end of the service.
EZtrackerCD allows us to start a new file at logical places in the service with a click.

(I think that is how we will do it. You may know a better way.)

Frank
http://lbpinc.com/DI.html

[gdougherty]

Thanks to all so far.

We will be recording our church service. We do it now but we will use a second computer and a separate monitor console "mixer" and record it Mono to a hard drive using EZTrackerCD We are all volunteer and we just don't have the time to do a mix down at a later date. Also we hand out CDs for members to take to shut ins 10 min after the service.

To clarify. A second separate monitor console running on the record computer (Not the SAC computer) sends it's output to a D/A and it goes out as a audio signal to the sound card of the second computer. That computer is also running EZtrackerCD which saves it as a series of Wav files already to burn at the end of the service.
EZtrackerCD allows us to start a new file at logical places in the service with a click.

(I think that is how we will do it. You may know a better way.)

Frank
http://lbpinc.com/DI.html

If you have enough inputs you coould possibly run EZ tracker on the same computer. Then again, it may be easiest to do it on a separate computer.

You can certainly put a SAC Remote instance on the second EZTracker computer and give them monitor rights to adjust that mix for the CD recording. The DA would be off the SAC machine though.

[tatkin]

One thing you might think about is the fact that you can use one of the 24 sub-mixes as a recording mix and send a mono out directly to a CD recorder. That's how we do it... record the service direct to CD and then run it through our High speed duplicator. Using one of the sub mixes allows for doing a custom mix that isn't building dependant and we don't have to use a seperate computer. It's all pre-set so the volunteers don't even have to look at it. We put all the limiting and compression on the output so it won't over drive the CD recorder.... SWEET!:D

[Frank DeWitt]

One thing you might think about is the fact that you can use one of the 24 sub-mixes as a recording mix and send a mono out directly to a CD recorder. That's how we do it... record the service direct to CD and then run it through our High speed duplicator. Using one of the sub mixes allows for doing a custom mix that isn't building dependant and we don't have to use a seperate computer. It's all pre-set so the volunteers don't even have to look at it. We put all the limiting and compression on the output so it won't over drive the CD recorder.... SWEET!:D

That is essentially what I am planning, Just substituting the EXtrackerCD for the CD recorder. Everything else is just as you suggest.

Thanks

Frank

[Frank DeWitt]

I searched the Archives and saw that AMD seems OK but wondered if anyone has tried a computer with a 64 X 2 AMD 5600 Brisbane? I ahve one available at no cost so it is tempting.

Sorry about adding to my own post (It seemed more polite then a new guy starting a second post)

Thanks again. In a few years, perhaps i can offer help.

Frank
http://lbpinc.com/DI.html

[mako]

Hard to beat "no cost" so well worth the effort to find out.

Good luck - mako

[gdougherty]

Should be a decent chip. Despite it's 2.9GHz clock speed it only hangs with about a midrange 2-2.4GHz Core2Duo, but that's no slouch either. It'll likely be plenty fast for your application, especially if you're not super heavy on the FX usage like I am.

[Pedrovent]

Phenom II X2 550 Blk Ed ----> Overclock

[Yogi]

Frank,
I'm running lots of 2408s both the IIs and the IIIs with no problem. I was able to pick them up off of ebay for much less than the cost of a RayDat. There are quite a few running the motu 2408s with no problems.

As for the taping of the service look into getting the TapeIt2 plug in (cheap...20 bucks I think, the free version works well also). It works perfectly for what you're doing. I use it every Sunday just like you described, we record the sermon, as the service is ending I close the wav file that TapeIt2 made, I then use CDBurn to burn one or more CDs immediately on the same computer that I have SAC on. No need for a second computer.

[gdougherty]

Frank,
I'm running lots of 2408s both the IIs and the IIIs with no problem. I was able to pick them up off of ebay for much less than the cost of a RayDat. There are quite a few running the motu 2408s with no problems.

As for the taping of the service look into getting the TapeIt2 plug in (cheap...20 bucks I think, the free version works well also). It works perfectly for what you're doing. I use it every Sunday just like you described, we record the sermon, as the service is ending I close the wav file that TapeIt2 made, I then use CDBurn to burn one or more CDs immediately on the same computer that I have SAC on. No need for a second computer.

TapeIt is not what they're looking for apparently. They want to hit stop on the record, pull out the CD a few seconds later after its finalized and drop it in a burner.

[Brent Evans]

I'll share my system, which has been working pretty well for several months now.

I track using Reaper, with two tabs open. Before service, I open two templates into those tabs, and save the sessions in my dated file structure. First tab is for music, all mics are armed (except the Lav). Second tab is for preaching with the pulpit and lav armed. These session templates already have reverb, comps, and mastering plugins patched and adjusted. It did take a few weeks to fine tune the template, but everything is ready to go. One nice thing about Reaper is that it can arm and disarm tracks while the recording is active, so If I need to arm a few vocal mics and the piano (which happens rarely) I can do so. During the transition from music to preaching, I stop the music recording, save it (takes all of 5 seconds), switch to the other tab and hit record. You can actually record in both tabs simultaneously, but I don't becasue I did get a glitch doing that a few times. No biggie, I have about a minute to get it running, it takes all of 15 seconds for the whole procedure.

On my remote, I open Reaper, open the music session over the network, and start mixing down as soon as I write down the sermon title and any other references I need. I have the mute and fader envelopes already visible and set up on my template. I mix visually,and in Reaper this is fast and easy. I set up fade ins and outs for each song one at a time, quick checking the mix after each automation change, and then select the song on the timeline and que it for render. The compressors handle the levels very well, and I am familiar enough with each group to get it right very quickly. Each song takes about a minute or two to set up. I'm sure I could get better results doing it the "right" way but this does come out better than just a live Tapeit recording, and any missed mutes or mix errors are corrected.

After all songs are set up, I render the que I have set up, and the whole process has taken me out of the service for 15 minutes or so. The rendering is done before the end of the message. If I know I'm going to be duplicating in advance (we don't publish every service, but we could), I go ahead and print the CDs for duplication and load them into the duplicator.

As soon as we get the "Heads Bowed and Eyes Closed" line, I use VNC to stop the recording on the host, and, as long as there are no glitches I need to fix (like a lav battery dying), I immediately start the host on rendering the message file, placing the WAV file directly over the network to my storage drive on the remote. This takes about 5 minutes to render for a 45 minute message. Our altar call usually lasts about 10 minutes, so that leaves just enough time to burn a master and run 10 copies on the duplicator. Most of the time, fully complete CDs are ready within 5 minutes of the end of service, if not before, and they are of very high quality. I always get comments when a guest picks one up and comes back for another meeting later.

The only thing you could do differently, if you trust your wireless systems, is that you could use Levelizer before a TapeIt plug to get a nice recording of the preaching without a render (like I've been doing) and then you could start burning CDs straightaway. This would save maybe 5 minutes off the method I use, but doesn't give any room for fixing wireless dropouts by splicing in the pulpit mic.

My system works well for me, and if you practice it, could work well for you, and be a quality improvement. It is more complicated than TapeIt, but there's a definite benefit, particularly if you're publishing music.

Hope this helps.

[Yogi]

TapeIt is not what they're looking for apparently. They want to hit stop on the record, pull out the CD a few seconds later after its finalized and drop it in a burner.

EXtrackerCD is just like tapeit2 except it's not a plug in. It creates a wav file and then you have to burn a CD from that.

If you feel comfortable with EXTrackerCD there is a way to use it on the same machine as SAC. In the setup menu for EXTrackerCD all you have to do is set it's input to one of the ASIO inputs from either the RayDat or the Motu unit inputs. Loop an output out to that input with a jumper cable (this is easy to do on a motu just pick an in and an out channel that isn't being used and jumper between them. Then on an output of either a monitor mix (if you want to control it seperately) or a mix that replicates your main mix set the output channel to the channel you set the jumper on. The output channel will now be fed to the input of the EXTrackerCD and you saved yourself using another computer just to record the sermon.

[Jeff Scott]

For the sermons....I use the free version of Tapeit, with a the RML Levelizer patched in front to even out any problems. Once the sermon is finished, I transport it over into Windows Media player and burn the WAV file to the CD player in my SAC Host. I then take that to the Duplicator behind me and run off the several copies. Takes all of 10 minutes start to finish. I'm trying to have it done by the time folks leave the Sanctuary for their coffee.

[gdougherty]

EXtrackerCD is just like tapeit2 except it's not a plug in. It creates a wav file and then you have to burn a CD from that.

If you feel comfortable with EXTrackerCD there is a way to use it on the same machine as SAC. In the setup menu for EXTrackerCD all you have to do is set it's input to one of the ASIO inputs from either the RayDat or the Motu unit inputs. Loop an output out to that input with a jumper cable (this is easy to do on a motu just pick an in and an out channel that isn't being used and jumper between them. Then on an output of either a monitor mix (if you want to control it seperately) or a mix that replicates your main mix set the output channel to the channel you set the jumper on. The output channel will now be fed to the input of the EXTrackerCD and you saved yourself using another computer just to record the sermon.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I misremembered the conversation on the Church Sound forums. I thought it was an app that turned a computer into a real-time CD recorder.

The one thing EZTracker does that tape-it doesn't is automatically or manually create markers for tracks when you do burn back to CD.

[gdougherty]

The only thing you could do differently, if you trust your wireless systems, is that you could use Levelizer before a TapeIt plug to get a nice recording of the preaching without a render (like I've been doing) and then you could start burning CDs straightaway. This would save maybe 5 minutes off the method I use, but doesn't give any room for fixing wireless dropouts by splicing in the pulpit mic.

Double up your lav and pulpit mics onto separate record channels. Reverse Gate the pulpit mic on the lavalier at a very low threshold so the wireless really has to drop out to open up the gate on the pulpit mic. Mix both into a subgroup, compress the subgroup and record with tape-it. EQ and blend the two signals so they both sound semi-close in response if the wireless does drop out.

Of course, a good wireless system on an open channel with fresh batteries shouldn't drop out.

[Brent Evans]

Double up your lav and pulpit mics onto separate record channels. Reverse Gate the pulpit mic on the lavalier at a very low threshold so the wireless really has to drop out to open up the gate on the pulpit mic. Mix both into a subgroup, compress the subgroup and record with tape-it. EQ and blend the two signals so they both sound semi-close in response if the wireless does drop out.

Interesting idea, but (I can't believe I'm saying this) it's too automatic. With my way, I can make the transition smoothly at the beginning and/or end of a phrase, and not just have a pulpit mic pop on in a dropout. Further, he moves around too much, and I'd have varied dynamic levels which are fixable in a couple of clicks with the way I do it. It would also be quite difficult to set up with the dynamic ranges I have to deal with, which range from whispering to nearly clipping the mic.



Of course, a good wireless system on an open channel with fresh batteries shouldn't drop out.

Shouldn't is my worst enemy. I'm pretty diligent about battery life, but a more common problem is actually him throwing the mic off himself due to exaggerated gesticulation. I've had batteries fly out, mic come off the clothing clip (zip ties fixed that one... hehe...) and all other sorts of issues.

I may also be a rare case.

[gdougherty]

Interesting idea, but (I can't believe I'm saying this) it's too automatic. With my way, I can make the transition smoothly at the beginning and/or end of a phrase, and not just have a pulpit mic pop on in a dropout. Further, he moves around too much, and I'd have varied dynamic levels which are fixable in a couple of clicks with the way I do it. It would also be quite difficult to set up with the dynamic ranges I have to deal with, which range from whispering to nearly clipping the mic.



Shouldn't is my worst enemy. I'm pretty diligent about battery life, but a more common problem is actually him throwing the mic off himself due to exaggerated gesticulation. I've had batteries fly out, mic come off the clothing clip (zip ties fixed that one... hehe...) and all other sorts of issues.

I may also be a rare case.

Sounds like a good candidate for one of the headworn mics with a secure fit. Maybe the near-invisible around the head styles. Of course, I already prefer those anyway for signal to room noise and consistency of level and tone.

[Brent Evans]

Sounds like a good candidate for one of the headworn mics with a secure fit. Maybe the near-invisible around the head styles. Of course, I already prefer those anyway for signal to room noise and consistency of level and tone.

Last time he broke his lav, I borrowed one of those and plugged it in for him. I told him that preachers that break lavs have to wear headsets. Watching him try to put it on was funny, at best. I guess you'd just have to know my pastor... he's rather old fashioned and a bit funny. Long story short, he won't wear a headmic or use a handheld. This is why I got the church to invest in a Countryman B3, they're quite sturdy. The omni lav capsule captures just enough room ambiance, as well as being very nice sounding on the voice.

I'm not complaining about my setup, don't get me wrong, I'm very pleased with it.

[RBIngraham]

You need a theatre persons help Brent to keep that lav on the pastor. :p

[Brent Evans]

You need a theatre persons help Brent to keep that lav on the pastor. :p

LOL... that would be some hilarity. I can hear it now...

"You want me to put it WHERE?"

If I recall correctly, his comment upon seeing the headset was (in the best country accent you can imagine): "I am NOT wearin' THAT!"

He really is a great pastor. And, we've had zero problems with the B3 because the clip routes the cable behind his tie (and I zip tied it to ensure it stays on the clip). He's pretty good about tucking the excess cable in his belt or somewhere, so it's working.

[RBIngraham]

LOL... that would be some hilarity. I can hear it now...

"You want me to put it WHERE?"

If I recall correctly, his comment upon seeing the headset was (in the best country accent you can imagine): "I am NOT wearin' THAT!"

He really is a great pastor. And, we've had zero problems with the B3 because the clip routes the cable behind his tie (and I zip tied it to ensure it stays on the clip). He's pretty good about tucking the excess cable in his belt or somewhere, so it's working.

LOL.

I was actually talking more about the belts we use to hold the transmitter. He isn't knocking that off with arm flailing. :)

[Brent Evans]

LOL.

I was actually talking more about the belts we use to hold the transmitter. He isn't knocking that off with arm flailing. :)

Nah, the transmitter hasn't been the issue. As a matter of fact, he broke the belt clip and just took to putting it in his pants pocket for several years until I fashioned a new belt clip from some wire I found at the hardware store (I'm way too cheap to spend $15 on a Sennheiser clip that I know is going to get lost or broken). The biggest problem we had was the ME2 clip spring not being very strong, and the wire getting broken. Those have been remedied with the B3.

[mip]

I found this SAC system via google and we are quite new on this thing.

We are four person band and need our own pa system.
With this system we want to shorten our soundchecks on tour.
Our plan is to have balcline and rack containing computer, adas on stage and mixing via wlan or cat5 on audience.

Our setup is following

Asus P5QL-CM
Intel E8400
Kingston HyperX 4GB Kit (2x2GB) 1066MHz DDR2
40GB Intel SSD –drive
500w power supply
RME HDSPe RayDAT pci-express
Behringer ADA-8000 x2 (we need only 12channels)

Any suggestions or advice on our setup?

What kind of spare parts do you have to your system?
Or in other words what is the most fragile parts?

We are going to have two racks:
Rack 1 http://www.gatorcases.com/Default.aspx?Section=Products&Page=Details&CategoryID=4378&CatalogID=9806
One containing only the computer so we can take it in the cabin on winter.

And rack 2
Basic rolling rack with In-Ear mons and adas.

Does anyone have any experience on putting 50cm deep coputercase on this gator case (42,5cm rack rail to rack rail)

Maybe some fitting pieces between the front rack rail and computer case?

p.s. sorry about my bad english

[Brent Evans]

I found this SAC system via google and we are quite new on this thing.

We are four person band and need our own pa system.
With this system we want to shorten our soundchecks on tour.
Our plan is to have balcline and rack containing computer, adas on stage and mixing via wlan or cat5 on audience.

Our setup is following

Asus P5QL-CM
Intel E8400
Kingston HyperX 4GB Kit (2x2GB) 1066MHz DDR2
40GB Intel SSD –drive
500w power supply
RME HDSPe RayDAT pci-express
Behringer ADA-8000 x2 (we need only 12channels)

Any suggestions or advice on our setup?

What kind of spare parts do you have to your system?
Or in other words what is the most fragile parts?

We are going to have two racks:
Rack 1 http://www.gatorcases.com/Default.aspx?Section=Products&Page=Details&CategoryID=4378&CatalogID=9806
One containing only the computer so we can take it in the cabin on winter.

And rack 2
Basic rolling rack with In-Ear mons and adas.

Does anyone have any experience on putting 50cm deep coputercase on this gator case (42,5cm rack rail to rack rail)

Maybe some fitting pieces between the front rack rail and computer case?

p.s. sorry about my bad english

Looks pretty good, here's a few things to consider. First, The SSD drives seem great for a small confined system like SAC, but if you ever plan on doing any multitrack recording, you're going to want a larger data drive also. Second, if all you need is 12 channels, there's no reason to spend the extra money on a Raydat when a HDSP9652 will do 24 channels, no sweat. The MOTU 324/424 and 2408 combo would also work well for you as long as tracking without SAW isn't an issue, and both options would save you quite a bit of money, particularly on the used market. You might even find a killer deal on an older RME DIGI9652 like I did and get the best of both worlds (save a lot and be able to track with Reaper or Digicheck).

Otherwise, you should be good to go, and as Bob says, jump aboard and enjoy the ride!

[mip]

I dont know much about mixing but i dont certainly know anything about dmx.
Can somebody tell me is there any way to control lights via wlan?
Maybe someway to use sac spare computer to run lights with usb/dmx box and controll it via wlan?

[Butch Bos]

Hi

I use PC Stage a computer DMX lighting program only $160.00 for a 36 ch interface or about $500 for a full 512 ch unit. same software for both. It runs fine on the same computer as SAC very little CPU load. PM me if you want a link to the demo.

Butch

[Phil]

We are using DAS Light. We got from a local shop but I think it originated from omnisistem. (yes spelled that way) Works OK. There is a "WiDMX" doesn't need the PC software. Any DMX controller will work. It's like a wireless dmx wire. :confused:

[glass50]

I just purchased 6 AVL633D over the ear "Countryman" style. They are the best I have ever heard on a minister. What's better, they come with separate pluggable cables that match Shure, Nady, Sennheiser, AT body packs. I found them at Longs Electronics for $119.95 each. I like em. They are an omni condenser with foam wind screen in flesh color.

David

[mip]

I have sac remote installed on my laptop and sac demo on my pc.
Full sharing on and read/write working on main drives.
I can establis connection but cant give remote computer any rights.
My computer is 192.168.0.10 and laptop 192.168.0.10 but by giving user rights on laptop ip it wont work.... can someone help... the help file didnt help.

[Bob L]

Looks like both computers have the same ip... they need to have different ips.

You can use the computer names or the ip in the User Rights List.

Bob L

[quaizywabbit]

I can establis connection but cant give remote computer any rights.
My computer is 192.168.0.10 and laptop 192.168.0.10 but by giving user rights on laptop ip it wont work.... can someone help... the help file didnt help.
how can both computers have the same ip address? maybe a typo i suppose..

at first when you connect the remote the SAC host will show the remotes "name", but with "no access" in the Options/TCP-IP Computer User Rights List. Click on the name of your remote machine in this list and you should get a list to assign rights. FOH gives access to everything.

[Wurst Werner]

I'm new to the remote topic as well (never used it before I got SAC), so there are definitivley more capable user here than me. Two things, that might help:
Have you typed in the host computer name? And I had to change the "workgroup-name" on my remote computer. The share all the same name now (host&remote). You can find the "computer&workgroup names" of your PC in the windows control panel--> "System"-->"computername".
Maybe this helps...

[mip]

Sorry about the typo. my laptop is 192.168.0.20.
My both computers are in the same workgroup.
I tried to connect with the computer names with the same results.
When i left-klik Host/Master icon on sac host computer i see [01] field-remote - User - Rights: NO ACCESS
Should i get options by klicking on it? because i dont.
On the coputer user-rigts list i have the laptop ip with FOH access and i tried it with computer name but still wont work.

[Phil]

you found the connected remote list. access right is in the menus. right below where you activated host master mode.

[mip]

you found the connected remote list. access right is in the menus. right below where you activated host master mode.

I have tried to give access with ip and computer name with no success..

[RBIngraham]

I have tried to give access with ip and computer name with no success..

Make sure you have shared the drives on both computers. Make sure you can write and delete a file from the SAC install folder in both directions on the host and the remote. Both computers need to have full read/write access to the folders SAC is installed to.

On several occasions I have had to boot up the computers, then actually open up Windows Explorer, to access the host from the remote and sometimes vice versa, access the remote from the host. Then once I had done that, I was able to launch SAC and the Remote and they would connect correctly. But if I hadn't accesses the computers drives (just look at them), then the SAC connection wouldn't work.

I think you could also check to see if they have the same user name and passwords for your log on. The networking will work smoother if they share the same user name and password as well. If they don't have the same user name and password, then you likely will have to play the game I described above to actually get the two computers "logged onto each other".