Can SAWStudio do this....?

[Jeff Scott]

My friend uses Cubase in his Studio. When micro-editing a track, let's say, to find the exact edit point of a vocal Pop or Sibiliance or such..he can "scroll' the track bit by bit, forward or back, while he listens to the audio and finds the exact point. Can I do this in SAWStudio? Perhaps, grab onto the cursor and drag it forward while listening to the audio?

I see in the Soundfile view, that when I drag the cursor forward, the audio on the track is reflected in the meter, but I'm not hearing anything.

I realize that I can find the edit points by looking at the waveform, but I just find it easier to hear it as well.

[bcorkery]

The "pop" is pretty obvious in the wave form. I use the sample view only to get the exact zero crossing in really tight edits. Most everything else I do in the multi-track with auto zero crossing on.

I've never needed to rock the audio back and forth since the old tape pancake days. I still have a grease pencil, editing tape and a blade though! :)

[Tom Roberts]

I use the dragging for audio feature a lot in another sofware also. Also called scrubbing.

The waveform of a sound is not always visibile if you do not have the zoom level set for that sensitivity. If you do set it close, then the waveform is too big for normal use. So dragging for sound can show where it starts without having to zoom in. Pops are kind of obvious in the visible waveform, but the beginning of other words or breathes are not.

You can go back and forth between zooms I guess, but that's extra work.

Thomas

[Arco]

My friend uses Cubase in his Studio. When micro-editing a track, let's say, to find the exact edit point of a vocal Pop or Sibiliance or such..he can "scroll' the track bit by bit, forward or back, while he listens to the audio and finds the exact point. Can I do this in SAWStudio? Perhaps, grab onto the cursor and drag it forward while listening to the audio?

I see in the Soundfile view, that when I drag the cursor forward, the audio on the track is reflected in the meter, but I'm not hearing anything.

I realize that I can find the edit points by looking at the waveform, but I just find it easier to hear it as well.

No scrubbing AFAIK. (do a search on search on "scrubbing") Here's what Bob has said on the subject: "When there is nothing that can be seen and the problem is that buried, I find scrubbing cannot help either, you are simply playing the trial and error game and then you accept a compromise anyway.... I bet I have logged tens of thousands of scrubbing hours time... so I feel pretty versed in the technique... and I have no interest in resurrecting it.

Bob L"


There are lots of busy voice over production folks here so stay tuned for their responses..

Me, I zoom in. Listen and watch..usually I can see right away where and what part of the visible wave form is the 'culprit' A quick soft-edge or more complex EQ/Compression touches handle the problem area.

Scrubbing is very satisfying when using reel-to-reel tapes, it just feels right--but I haven't found it to be the same experience when editing digital audio(I have Sony Vegas, so I've made use of function when editing video).

[RBIngraham]

Setting aside whether it's needed or not....

No I don't think you can do that in SAW. It's usually refereed to as scrubbing in most applications I have seen.

[Jeff Scott]

OK so...Scrubbing is not an option for SAW..at least in the forseeable future. Thanks for the responses guys. I'll use the tools that SAW does have and move on. :D

[Ian Alexander]

I'm one of those VO guys. Most little noises, pops, etc., are pretty easy to find visually. There are times when I just can't see it, but I sure can hear it. Often it's a noise in a breath, which is already a pretty busy waveform, or a small click or mouth noise. In those cases, I admit I'd like to be able to scrub. The workaround I've found is to place the cursor, then play. If I hear the noise, I move the cursor a little to the right, then play again. If I don't hear the noise, I move a bit to the left. That helps to get closer. Sometimes if I can't find the noise itself I'll cut from a zero cross point on the wave to the next same-shape zero cross. Kinda brute force, but at times, you get away with it.

[Microstudio]

The thing to do is listen for the "pop" and then stop play back and then zoom in, I have a F-Key window just with one track open as big as my monitor. As you zoom in the cursor will be right in the middle so you can just move back until you see it and fix it. Make sure GRID mode is off.

[Bob L]

Use the vertical zoom also to expand the vertical display of the waveform...

If you are looking for a pop... it should definitely be instantly visible... if you are trying to find some buried noise in a low level piece of a waveform... scrubbing will not really help... but expanding the vertical zoom of the aveform might... otherwise... just like scrubbing... just zoom way in and place your cursor and start and stop playback with the right-mouse click... keep adjusting your position till you don't here the noise anymore... then figure out how you want to deal with it... paste over with a small copy of the previous few samples... or draw the noise out... or... etc.

I never implemented it because I found it not necessary... the programs that do it... seem pretty useless anyway, since there is usually so much latency involved and inaccuracy of where you stop... you are already far off the mark when looking for a small noise.

In the tape days... we scrubbed because we had to... on DAW's... scrubbing seems pretty much a carry over security blanket or just a "make the customer happy" thing... but generally, in my experience, not very effectively implemented.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

I use the dragging for audio feature a lot in another sofware also. Also called scrubbing.

The waveform of a sound is not always visibile if you do not have the zoom level set for that sensitivity. If you do set it close, then the waveform is too big for normal use. So dragging for sound can show where it starts without having to zoom in. Pops are kind of obvious in the visible waveform, but the beginning of other words or breathes are not.

You can go back and forth between zooms I guess, but that's extra work.

Thomas

Tom, it sounds like you have yet to discover the virtues of using the mouse scroll wheel for zooming. Changed my life. Zooming is now a no-brainer for me. I find the finest ticks and enunciatory details by watching the cursor's location during playback while listening, then zooming in finding what I'm looking for. Vertical zoom, too (ctrl-scroll-wheel the way I have SS configured).

I used to scrub using a reel to reel tape deck. Never missed it since going digital. To me, scrubbing was something we had to do before we had the tools to look at a waveform.

Today, I will literally go through a sixty-second voice-over without listening to any of it and take out all the breaths.

[Wink0r]

take out all the breaths.

I didn't know it was cold enough in Arizona to see your breath.

[bcorkery]

I'm one of those VO guys. Most little noises, pops, etc., are pretty easy to find visually. There are times when I just can't see it, but I sure can hear it. Often it's a noise in a breath, which is already a pretty busy waveform, or a small click or mouth noise. In those cases, I admit I'd like to be able to scrub. The workaround I've found is to place the cursor, then play. If I hear the noise, I move the cursor a little to the right, then play again. If I don't hear the noise, I move a bit to the left. That helps to get closer. Sometimes if I can't find the noise itself I'll cut from a zero cross point on the wave to the next same-shape zero cross. Kinda brute force, but at times, you get away with it.Ian, I just rough cut the breath in the general area of the pop. It's rare when I keep the whole breath anyway. I don't like getting rid of the entire thing, it gets mechanical sounding, but I often cut the middle of the breath out to get a tighter, more "lean forward" yet still natural sounding read.

@ Tom. What Dave and Bob said ... that scroll wheel to opens up the waveform on a large, sound file background, both horizontally and vertically gives you a pretty good look at where that little bugger is. You can use an FKey to get there quickly.

Hope this helps.

[studio-c]

What they said regarding scrubbing. It's a holdover from the tape days. I though I'd miss it, but I don't.

One tip on breaths... when I'm editing a long form piece, I'll keep a little stash of quiet breaths, which I insert in place of the loud or slurpy breaths. I also create a few regions of just room ambience, to slip in and cover a page turn, etc. Just a space holder to make it feel natural. I'm sure this is a common practice. Just wanted to put it out there.

[Tom Roberts]

Tom, it sounds like you have yet to discover the virtues of using the mouse scroll wheel for zooming.

Hi Dave,

I don't have SAW. I came here to see what's going on with SAC and noticed the post about scrubbing.

I am familiar with the convenience of zooming shortcuts in other apps, some also using mouse wheel. Scrubbing is a nice option to have as well. Most of the other apps I'm aware of have it. I use it a lot. I could probably learn to live without it and just zoom in and out more if I had to.

Thomas

[Ian Alexander]

What they said regarding scrubbing. It's a holdover from the tape days. I though I'd miss it, but I don't.

One tip on breaths... when I'm editing a long form piece, I'll keep a little stash of quiet breaths, which I insert in place of the loud or slurpy breaths. I also create a few regions of just room ambience, to slip in and cover a page turn, etc. Just a space holder to make it feel natural. I'm sure this is a common practice. Just wanted to put it out there.
Ever have one of those replacement breaths that just doesn't sound quite right? I've noticed that breaths are different when they precede different sounds at the beginning of the next word. Sometimes it doesn't matter, but sometimes you have to go find one that precedes a similar sound.

[TotalSonic]

In mastering I have to remove clicks, crackles, pops, isolated sibilance, and low end bumps such as p-pops all the time. And got to say that while the initial programs I worked with such as Sound Designer II featured scrubbing I have never ever missed having it with SAWStudio because it's zoom, cursor move, zero energy point find, and playback features are so quick and easy. The instructions that Matt (Microstudio) provided previously in this thread are the way to go - simply zoom in, play back in place, and then place your cursor closer or farther out as needed and you can isolate these areas way faster than you can with scrubbing in my direct experience.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Dave Labrecque]

I didn't know it was cold enough in Arizona to see your breath.

Not usually. That's why I lean heavily on SAW. ;)

[Dave Labrecque]

Hi Dave,

I don't have SAW. I came here to see what's going on with SAC and noticed the post about scrubbing.

I am familiar with the convenience of zooming shortcuts in other apps, some also using mouse wheel. Scrubbing is a nice option to have as well. Most of the other apps I'm aware of have it. I use it a lot. I could probably learn to live without it and just zoom in and out more if I had to.

Thomas

FWIW, for me it was less learning to live without it and more discovering that I no longer had a need for it. If I haven't yet made that clear. ;)

[Dave Labrecque]

...when I'm editing a long form piece, I'll keep a little stash of quiet breaths, which I insert in place of the loud or slurpy breaths.

Interesting... when I'm editing a long porn piece, I'll keep a little stash of loud, slurpy breaths... :p

[Tom Roberts]

FWIW, for me it was less learning to live without it and more discovering that I no longer had a need for it. If I haven't yet made that clear. ;)

Choices are nice to have. I like scrubbing. Sometimes I use it and sometimes I don't. It's there when I need it.

I don't have a need for a lot of features, but I may use them occasionally.

Thomas

[Cary B. Cornett]

if you are trying to find some buried noise in a low level piece of a waveform... scrubbing will not really help... but expanding the vertical zoom of the aveform might... otherwise... just like scrubbing... just zoom way in and place your cursor and start and stop playback with the right-mouse click... keep adjusting your position till you don't here the noise anymore... then figure out how you want to deal with it... This reminds me of something that worked perfectly for years, but a while ago got "broken" in one of the updates. In using the method just described, I found it VERY handy that zoom level 4 was where the display would stay locked instead of paging along with the playback cursor. It was exactly the most comfortable zoom level for me to quickly locate the perfect edit point. Ever since zoom level 4 was made to "page along" with the cursor, I find it much less convenient to fine-tune edits. Is there any way at all that the old way could be restored? Please?

[Bob L]

See that is what happens when I am pressured by the public to make a change... that change was an added FEATURE based on public pressure.

Oh Well...

Of course you can zoom in a few more levels... or use the Auto-Rewind button which will jump you back to your starting place even if it does scroll off screen.

Bob L

[UpTilDawn]

Wouldn't you know it?... I find myself about one zoom level short of where I like to stop scrolling the screen too. :rolleyes: Oh well... It still works plenty fine. :D

I thought I would miss scrubbing something fierce and kept begging for it in SAW for a while. Now I don't even find I need it in other apps that have it since I found a few tricks that work great...... like the one Matt and Steve mentioned, for instance.

Each to his own...

[Carl G.]

Tom, it sounds like you have yet to discover the virtues of using the mouse scroll wheel for zooming. Changed my life. Zooming is now a no-brainer for me. I find the finest ticks and enunciatory details by watching the cursor's location during playback while listening, then zooming in finding what I'm looking for. Vertical zoom, too (ctrl-scroll-wheel the way I have SS configured).

I used to scrub using a reel to reel tape deck. Never missed it since going digital. To me, scrubbing was something we had to do before we had the tools to look at a waveform.

Today, I will literally go through a sixty-second voice-over without listening to any of it and take out all the breaths.

Same here, Dave. Scrubbing was the way of yester-year's technology. (I had decades of experience with it) SawStudio has fortunately sped that whole process up - by not using it.

[Sean McCoy]

I do a ton of micro-editing and have never found the scrub feature in other software at all useful, so I certainly don't miss it in SS. Kind of a cool form of entertainment during recording sessions, though. The wind-down effect always gets a laugh.

[Tom Roberts]

You guys seem to be focusing on the only the most basic use of a scrubbing tool. To find the beginning of a sound.

You seem to be overlooking all of the other options that come with it, such as leaving the cursor where the scrubbing stops (or not), trimming of region boundries while scrubbing to avoid another editing step, selecting an area with the scrubbing tool, acting as a "solo" device without having to hunt for the solo button, speeding up and slowing down playback at many times normal speed, and one of my favorites, scrubbing in the video track to find an exact edit point for placing a region, like a sound effect to match the video for example.

It can be much more than an option for zooming to find the beginning spot of a sound.

Thomas

[Carl G.]

Since I first bought Saw in 1996, I started dropping the 'scrub' idea. Oh, I did it thousands of times with tape, but then, we all had to.
I also edit with another system that features 'scrubbing' and have never used it. I dropped 'scrubbing' when I stopped editing with tape. Once you know what pops and clicks look like on a wave form, you can just about edit any voiceover session, and listen to your edits after you've made them. The mouse wheel is my editing friend in Saw. It opens up what i'm editing, and I can see the offending pop, click, lip smack, burp, or snort.
Sometimes there's so much mouth noise, you need to dry off in between edits.
[OT: I usually record the talents with EQ, and Comp on, to hear noise while recording. Saves some post record editing time if they're particularly moist that day.]
True - the mouse wheel is our friend in these cases. Also - the keypad keys: 1,2, and 3. Bam! you're see right where you're at!

[Tom Roberts]

Once you know what pops and clicks look like on a wave form, you can just about edit any voiceover session, and listen to your edits after you've made them.

Again, only one use of the scrubbing tool. When I discovered I could trim the region boundry while scrubbing, the edit was done simultaneously. No need to zoom or enter other editing commands after finding the edit point.

And the video scrub is an awesome tool. How do SS users typically find edit points in the video track?

Thomas

[Carl G.]

You guys seem to be focusing on the only the most basic use of a scrubbing tool. To find the beginning of a sound.

You seem to be overlooking all of the other options that come with it, such as leaving the cursor where the scrubbing stops (or not), trimming of region boundries while scrubbing to avoid another editing step, selecting an area with the scrubbing tool, acting as a "solo" device without having to hunt for the solo button, speeding up and slowing down playback at many times normal speed, and one of my favorites, scrubbing in the video track to find an exact edit point for placing a region, like a sound effect to match the video for example.

It can be much more than an option for zooming to find the beginning spot of a sound.

Thomas
Good news Thomas. SawStudio can already do much of that!
Trimming is quickly done with "R" and "U" keys in MT.
Soloing is quickly done with various solo options in MT.
Scrubbing video is quickly done with the video viewer.

[Tom Roberts]

Scrubbing video is quickly done with the video viewer.

But how is it done? How do you find the edit point. Is it a scrub type of thing?

yes, I am sure there are other editing and solo options. I was pointing out how the scrubbing tool can also get that job done with perhaps fewer steps.

Thomas

[Bob L]

You can scrub video on the video track in the viewer... there is just no audio scrub.

And... in SAWStudio... it just seems not to be needed.

And... I can pretty much say... the overall editing and mix process in SAWStudio can be a much faster experience, in my opinion.

You will find many things that SAWStudio does quite differently, that can very well eliminate the need for certain operations found in other DAW's... that may be needed there based on their design methods.

Again... SAWStudio is different... some find that better... some decide its worse... but you really would have to learn it and then see for yourself before you can really make any kind of judgement call.

At any rate... the answer to the original question is no... SS does not scrub audio... beyond that... debates about if that's good or bad will rage on forever... kind of a bunch of wasted energy, wouldn't you think. :)

Bob L

[Bill Park]

But how is it done? How do you find the edit point. Is it a scrub type of thing?

Thomas

Tom,

Just to back up what Bob is saying: I've spent a lot of time editing video, shuttling and scrubbing in the late 1980s early 1990s. Also our DA-88s used shuttle and scrub, so I was very used to that paradigm. But if you follow Bob's instructions, it really is faster and easier. It is just different, and that threw me at first... "...why can't i do it the way I learned it..." I've been doing it Bobs way since the early 1990s and that has become second nature to me. Scrubbing feels clumsy and antiquated.

[bcorkery]

Plus it's a bit hypnotic and I get mesmerized by the zwwwwip - piwwwwz - zwwwwwip sound and sort o' go away for a while.

That's why it takes ME longer with the scrub tool. :o

[Tom Roberts]

This seems to be a one dimensional conversation, as if the only function of a scrubbing tool is too simulate rocking a tape reel back and forth to find an edit spot. That was twenty years ago. Digital editors have much more sophisticated features and options in the scrubbing menus.

Finding the beginning of a sound and editing is the most basic of functions. I agree that can be replaced with zooming to edit and using your eyes, and then checking to make sure what you saw is what you heard. And it can be done fast.

But the scrubbing options list is much longer than that. Trimming while scrubbing is a one step operation. When you release the mouse button, the edit is complete. No need to go back and edit with another set of commands. Probably not good for precision editing of music, but pretty good for less precision editing of dialog and sound effects and voice overs.

Being able to slow down and speed up the playback with the scrubbing tool is also very handy trick, and a single operation.

I'm getting the distinct feeling no one has tried these so they don't understand they even exist, especially the trimming while scrubbing trick.

It's not all about simulating rocking the tape style of editing. And it's not a question of "they way I learned it", but "wow I was never able to do that before"

Thomas

[Carl G.]

This seems to be a one dimensional conversation,
Thomas

hmmm.... so, then why not open up your dimensional vision, and experiment for a while with the SawStudio way? :)

[Tom Roberts]

hmmm.... so, then why not open up your dimensional vision, and experiment for a while with the SawStudio way? :)

I already can zoom in quickly and make an edit visually. Sorry, but there is nothing special about doing that in any editor.

By one dimensional I mean that everyone is focusing on the ONE basic function of zooming in to make an edit, and not recognizing the other features I listed earlier which are very handy.

Thomas

[Bob L]

Thomas... most of us seem simply not interested in anything scrubbing wise anymore... I know I'm not...

I have scrubbing on my Edius Video editing setup and it just pretty much makes me laugh... and its one of the best implementations I have heard since it uses its own audio hardware card.

Anyway... we are all glad you think its a great feature to have... enjoy it...

But... let us enjoy all the other things about SS that we like and have decided to use it for.

Meanwhile... if you do have some interest in SS take a look... explore and play with the demo for a while and then see if there are things you feel do have an advantage for your work... otherwise... let it alone... if you are happy with your current tools... then let's just move on.

Thanks,

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

Not all of us.:) I posted in this thread that there are occasional little noises that I just can't see. I'm sure that's because I'm less of an editor than some of you. Or perhaps I haven't had enough Koolaid yet. But can't we be grown up enough to say, "Yes, Tom, there might be benefits to scrubbing, but SS doesn't do it." Do we have to phrase every response in a way that belittles someone who has a different opinion?

[UpTilDawn]

... Trimming while scrubbing is a one step operation. When you release the mouse button, the edit is complete. No need to go back and edit with another set of commands. Probably not good for precision editing of music, but pretty good for less precision editing of dialog and sound effects and voice overs...

Thomas, sounds like what you're talking about is easily done in SAW (with one step) already with the use of the Alt key and mouse drag at a region boundary... or by using the U-key to update a region boundary's edge to the cursor position. Or a two key operation of K and U, or K and Alt/drag in the case of splitting a region into two distinct parts to be trimmed individually. It's visual...... no audio scrubbing really needed there either..... and possibly much more precision editing for music..... I guess I can attest to that since I use these things every day, pretty much.

High and low speed playback (keeping pitch intact) is another story and would require the use of a plug-in on an output track, but once inserted, can then be as simple as a one key press to bypass/engage the FX patch point, or the plug-in itself if left open on the screen.

[Tom Roberts]

Hi UpTilDawn,

I'm getting gun shy to talk about it anymore after being scolded twice, but since you asked.

For the umpteenth time I was talking specifically about a feature that combines an edit with the scrub. Not about various ways to trim a boundry. Not whether or not zooming is better than scrubbing.

I mean this. You scrub and listen. You stop. When you lift your finger off of the mouse button, the region then trims to where you stopped.

The speed thing is cool to slow things down "on the fly" to hear stuff more clearly for a quick edit.

Thomas

PS. How come you don't get scolded for talking about it? what did I do wrong?

[Tom Roberts]

Guys, I see what Tom is referring to. The 'Grabber' tool in ProTools. When you use the sound feature, you can scrub the audio and grab the end of the track. You hear the sound, and stop where you want to, and when you release your trackball or mouse, the edit is done.


Actually, that's not it at all, but I'll try that.

Under the trim menu, select scrub, next to the time compression/TCE feature. Scrub any where. You don't need to grab the end of the region. when you release, the edit happens. Reverse the direction of the trimmer tool by holding the option key, or whatever it is in Windows.

Thomas

[Tom Roberts]

OK, I see where this is going.

Bob, and many others, have already said it during this entire thread:

There is no 'scrub audio' feature in Saw Studio.


Yes, I get it. I was responding to your incorrect description of the Pro Tools feature you assumed I was referring to. That wasn't it.

Thomas

[UpTilDawn]

Hi UpTilDawn,

I'm getting gun shy to talk about it anymore after being scolded twice, but since you asked.

For the umpteenth time I was talking specifically about a feature that combines an edit with the scrub. Not about various ways to trim a boundry. Not whether or not zooming is better than scrubbing.

I mean this. You scrub and listen. You stop. When you lift your finger off of the mouse button, the region then trims to where you stopped.

The speed thing is cool to slow things down "on the fly" to hear stuff more clearly for a quick edit.

Thomas

PS. How come you don't get scolded for talking about it? what did I do wrong?

I used to get "scolded" when I brought it up as a new SAW user, having come from the scrubbing world myself. Bob made it clear back then that he was not inclined to include it even as an optional feature in SAW, so I tried getting used to SAW the way Bob designed it. It only took one or two editing sessions for me to become so comfortable with visual waveform editing that I stopped thinking about what was "missing".

The extra things that you like to use scrubbing for are all valid and great to have.... But rather than harp on the lack of scrubbing in SAW, I've chosen to find alternatives to get those effects when I want them.... I trust that Bob knows the workings of SAW much better than I do. Since this subject has been raised many times in the past without changing Bob's mind, I trust that he knows why he doesn't include some of the things I see as "feature enhancements" and leave it at that.

As to my earlier comments, I was simply attempting to point out the visual alternatives that SAW offers to your audio scrubbing methods, since it appeared that you do not know of them, or have not given the program an honest assessment before debating the pros and cons of the different methods. I assumed that I might be helping..... not arguing.

I like both methods... I use both methods.... including, but not exclusive to uses that invlove the trimming of region boundaries.

Most of my work is in music, not VO, by the way.

[MikeDee]

Not all of us.:) I posted in this thread that there are occasional little noises that I just can't see. I'm sure that's because I'm less of an editor than some of you. Or perhaps I haven't had enough Koolaid yet. But can't we be grown up enough to say, "Yes, Tom, there might be benefits to scrubbing, but SS doesn't do it." Do we have to phrase every response in a way that belittles someone who has a different opinion?
Ian, have you tried Shift+PageUp to z***248;***248;m the waveform vertically? Works for me with those p***233;sky, hard-to-see noises. :cool:

Hey, I got an idea for scrubbing...Bob, make us templates for those DJ-style interfaces, e.g., the Numark Total Control (which I use with Traktor Studio live on occasion). Then, Heavens to Hot Tracks, we can scratch, er, scrub the audio with the wheels...two tracks at a time, evennnnn!! :D

Ok, ev'rybody please lift his/her jaw off the ground...I'm kidding here. :p

Actually, I've never had a need for scrubbing in SAWStudio since Day 1. In fact, I pretty much automatically did the zoom/play/right or left arrow/play/Z [not using auto zero-crossing]/edit "trick" mentioned previously. (I sorta thought I invented this back then as my alternative to scrubbing...call me the Al Gore of SS, I guess. :o) To this day, I find it very efficient and "natural."

Tutti i gusti son gusti. (Everyone to his own tastes...to each his own.) :)

Exiiit...stage left! :D

[CurtZHP]

I think, when I hit the "K" key, the mouse pointer should turn into a tiny razor blade to be dragged across the active track.

:p

[Ian Alexander]

Ian, have you tried Shift+PageUp to zøøm the waveform vertically? Works for me with those pésky, hard-to-see noises. :cool:


Thanks Mike. Ctrl-MouseWheel is my approach, if you select MultiTrack/MouseWheel/Zoom from the menu. After using Saw products for 14 years, I'm pretty good at getting the waveform the way I want it. It's just that some noises look a lot like the audio they're hidden in. Also, anyone else notice that sometimes you hear a noise, start playback again just before where you KNOW the noise is, but without enough pre-roll, you don't hear it? Back up another second or two, and there it is again. I sometimes wonder if it has something to do with the way the Sonoris comp works.

[Bob L]

Be careful with latency causing plugins... because they can definitely cause different sounding audio depending on where you start.

Again... when doing very detailed low level editing... you may want to double-click the region into the soundfile view... find the edit point there and then you can use the T key to transfer the exact sample position back to the MT track before you edit.

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

Be careful with latency causing plugins... because they can definitely cause different sounding audio depending on where you start.

Again... when doing very detailed low level editing... you may want to double-click the region into the soundfile view... find the edit point there and then you can use the T key to transfer the exact sample position back to the MT track before you edit.

Bob L
Thanks Bob. I double click into the SF view hundreds of times while editing narrations. The deeper zoom is very helpful. Sometimes I use the pencil tool to eliminate a mouth noise. Sometimes I go back to the MT and cut out a small chunk. The latter is usually quicker, but if the sound is changing rapidly, you can't get away with that.

[bcorkery]

I've never gotten very good with the pencil tool. Too much coffee?

[Dave Labrecque]

I agree with Thomas that it sounds like none of us has experience with the specific scrubbing functionality that he's talking about. I know I don't. I would reserve judgment on such functionality till we've tried it. :)

Meantime, Thomas, you may want to try SAW's approach to see how it compares, ultimately, with your scrubbing feature favorites in terms of overall work flow and time spent.

I know I can't imagine a scrubbing approach that would be quicker than the way we do these things in SAW, but I could be wrong.

RE: video scrubbing... I think SAW's always outperformed other apps, including video apps, for video scrubbing (and video handling in general) because Bob has developed his own frame-handling code (as I understand it), which circumvents the way video is normally moved around on computers. Most of us convert anything given to us into a DV AVI format video file for use on SAW's video track (Bob's found DVD AVI's to be high-performing for random access). As with SAW's initial relative strength with audio on a system's host processor, today's systems are much beefier than years ago in terms of video, too, and so SAW's greater efficiency is often not as critical or obvious as it used to be.

BTW, audio/video drift seems to be mostly a non-issue with SAW because the audio clock rules; video frames are released according to the audio clock. If frames get dropped for whatever reason, sync remains intact.

Try the demo and see for yourself if SAW's alternate paradigm works for you.

BTW... one really cool feature that I use all the time for spotting sound effects or music hits to video is the alt-shift-drag function (in Select Mode). It allows you to scrub video while moving an audio region(s) around using any point within the region (like a particular music beat or sound effect transient) as the sync reference. Makes putting the gunshot on the first flame frame a no-brainer.

[Tom Roberts]

I'm one of those VO guys. Most little noises, pops, etc., are pretty easy to find visually. There are times when I just can't see it, but I sure can hear it. Often it's a noise in a breath, which is already a pretty busy waveform, or a small click or mouth noise. In those cases, I admit I'd like to be able to scrub. The workaround I've found is to place the cursor, then play. If I hear the noise, I move the cursor a little to the right, then play again. If I don't hear the noise, I move a bit to the left. That helps to get closer. Sometimes if I can't find the noise itself I'll cut from a zero cross point on the wave to the next same-shape zero cross. Kinda brute force, but at times, you get away with it.

I had this almost exact thing happen to me yesterday and I thought of your posting. I was hearing a loud mouth noise/click of some sort that was not at all obvious in the waveform.

Zooming in and playing back in a trial and error fashion got me in the general area, but was too difficult to "see". Using a combination of zooming and slo-mo scrub I was able to pin point it exactly and fix it.

Thomas

[Tom Roberts]

Meantime, Thomas, you may want to try SAW's approach to see how it compares, ultimately, with your scrubbing feature favorites in terms of overall work flow and time spent.

i'd like to try the demo as I would like to try the demo of SAC, but I can't because I'm on a Mac. The office PC is too far away from the garage music room.

But what do you mean by "SAW" approach other than zooming in and playing back to "see" by watching the cursor. I also zoom with a mouse wheel if that's what you mean.



BTW... one really cool feature that I use all the time for spotting sound effects or music hits to video is the alt-shift-drag function (in Select Mode). It allows you to scrub video while moving an audio region(s) around using any point within the region (like a particular music beat or sound effect transient) as the sync reference. Makes putting the gunshot on the first flame frame a no-brainer.That sounds very cool. Now I scrub the video to place the cursor and drag in the sound, so that would save a step. But I also find that I frequently have to move it a bit anyhow because of the eye to ear coordination works better early or late somehow.

Thomas

[Carl G.]

i'd like to try the demo as I would like to try the demo of SAC, but I can't because I'm on a Mac.

Good news. I believe there are those here on the forum who run SawStudio quite successfully on a Mac. So... trying the demo (if you're interested enough) should be no problem - unless you simply don't want to.


But what do you mean by "SAW" approach other than zooming in and playing back to "see" by watching the cursor.
That's why the demo is there :) If a picture speaks a thousand words - the Demo is far better than simply sampling words in a forum. Try it... let us know what you think after reading the manual - and trying out the Demo. Tons of your questions might be answered far better - since most of us simply refer back to the manual often. :) It's kinda like standing on the pool deck asking how fun the water is .... you'll never know till you jump in (the demo) and experience it for yourself.

[Carl G.]

*** (Ian Alexander Post)
I'm one of those VO guys. Most little noises, pops, etc., are pretty easy to find visually. There are times when I just can't see it, but I sure can hear it. Often it's a noise in a breath, which is already a pretty busy waveform, or a small click or mouth noise. In those cases, I admit I'd like to be able to scrub. The workaround I've found is to place the cursor, then play. If I hear the noise, I move the cursor a little to the right, then play again. If I don't hear the noise, I move a bit to the left. That helps to get closer. Sometimes if I can't find the noise itself I'll cut from a zero cross point on the wave to the next same-shape zero cross. Kinda brute force, but at times, you get away with it. (end Ian Alexander post)***

I had this almost exact thing happen to me yesterday and I thought of your posting. I was hearing a loud mouth noise/click of some sort that was not at all obvious in the waveform.

Zooming in and playing back in a trial and error fashion got me in the general area, but was too difficult to "see". Using a combination of zooming and slo-mo scrub I was able to pin point it exactly and fix it.

Thomas
Thomas, I don't know why, but you're picking an older post of Ian's which has since been addressed an solved (I'm grateful, because it solved a question I had also). The wave form "See - Saw" method is extremely accurate for me - because I do the wave form 'click' editing inside the SoundFile.... so latency causing plugins are really not any issue (because we don't do actual sample editing inside the MT). We 'hear' it in MT... get near it... and double click (or press the T key) and we're instantly zoomed in on the area in the sound file. Previewing it there is always right on. For me, I've learned what hidden clicks look like in a zoomed into sample display on a wave form - so it's pretty simple even though I also the Sonoris Compressor in the MT).
Here are the subsequent posts below - just to summarize.
__________________________________________________ ___
(Ian) ..... After using Saw products for 14 years, I'm pretty good at getting the waveform the way I want it. It's just that some noises look a lot like the audio they're hidden in. Also, anyone else notice that sometimes you hear a noise, start playback again just before where you KNOW the noise is, but without enough pre-roll, you don't hear it? Back up another second or two, and there it is again. I sometimes wonder if it has something to do with the way the Sonoris comp works.
Ian Alexander
__________________________________________________ __
(Bob-Developer)
Be careful with latency causing plugins... because they can definitely cause different sounding audio depending on where you start.

Again... when doing very detailed low level editing... you may want to double-click the region into the soundfile view... find the edit point there and then you can use the T key to transfer the exact sample position back to the MT track before you edit.
Bob L
__________________________________________________ __
(Ian)..Thanks Bob. I double click into the SF view hundreds of times while editing narrations. The deeper zoom is very helpful. Sometimes I use the pencil tool to eliminate a mouth noise. Sometimes I go back to the MT and cut out a small chunk. The latter is usually quicker, but if the sound is changing rapidly, you can't get away with that.
Ian Alexander
__________________________________________________ _____

[Tom Roberts]

Good news. I believe there are those here on the forum who run SawStudio quite successfully on a Mac. So... trying the demo (if you're interested enough) should be no problem - unless you simply don't want to.


You can only run Windows on a newer Mac. I have a G5 that is super fast, but can't run windows.

But to get on topic, what is the technique besides fast vertical and horizontal zoom?

Thomas

[Tom Roberts]

Thomas, I don't know why, but you're picking an older post of Ian's which has since been addressed an solved (which solved a question I had also):

Because it just happened to me exactly the same way so I thought I'd ask Ian about it?

Thomas

[Carl G.]

Because it just happened to me exactly the same way so I thought I'd ask Ian about it?

Thomas
As mentioned... the answers were already in the posts posted by them before you brought it up again. Just thought I'd help out.
You can set your preferences on the forum display to your liking - to see chronologically or in a tree or a combination. Each has it's advantages. Pretty cool forum!

[Tom Roberts]

You can set your preferences on the forum display to your liking - to see chronologically or in a tree or a combination. Each has it's advantages. Pretty cool forum!

I don't understand what this means. I was replying to a post about scrubbing and zooming.

Thomas

[Carl G.]

I don't understand what this means. I was replying to a post about scrubbing and zooming.

Thomas

Oh. We don't do scrubbing in SawStudio.

[Ian Alexander]

I had this almost exact thing happen to me yesterday and I thought of your posting. I was hearing a loud mouth noise/click of some sort that was not at all obvious in the waveform.

Zooming in and playing back in a trial and error fashion got me in the general area, but was too difficult to "see". Using a combination of zooming and slo-mo scrub I was able to pin point it exactly and fix it.

Thomas
Yes, in these situations, I feel that scrubbing might be very helpful, although I've never used a DAW with that feature. Anyway, SS doesn't have it, and likely won't. I like SS for too many other reasons, so I'm sticking with it.

[Ian Alexander]

Thomas, I don't know why, but you're picking an older post of Ian's which has since been addressed an solved (I'm grateful, because it solved a question I had also). The wave form "See - Saw" method is extremely accurate for me - because I do the wave form 'click' editing inside the SoundFile.... so latency causing plugins are really not any issue (because we don't do actual sample editing inside the MT). We 'hear' it in MT... get near it... and double click (or press the T key) and we're instantly zoomed in on the area in the sound file. Previewing it there is always right on. For me, I've learned what hidden clicks look like in a zoomed into sample display on a wave form - so it's pretty simple even though I also the Sonoris Compressor in the MT).
Here are the subsequent posts below - just to summarize.
__________________________________________________ ___
(Ian) ..... After using Saw products for 14 years, I'm pretty good at getting the waveform the way I want it. It's just that some noises look a lot like the audio they're hidden in. Also, anyone else notice that sometimes you hear a noise, start playback again just before where you KNOW the noise is, but without enough pre-roll, you don't hear it? Back up another second or two, and there it is again. I sometimes wonder if it has something to do with the way the Sonoris comp works.
Ian Alexander
__________________________________________________ __
(Bob-Developer)
Be careful with latency causing plugins... because they can definitely cause different sounding audio depending on where you start.

Again... when doing very detailed low level editing... you may want to double-click the region into the soundfile view... find the edit point there and then you can use the T key to transfer the exact sample position back to the MT track before you edit.
Bob L
__________________________________________________ __
(Ian)..Thanks Bob. I double click into the SF view hundreds of times while editing narrations. The deeper zoom is very helpful. Sometimes I use the pencil tool to eliminate a mouth noise. Sometimes I go back to the MT and cut out a small chunk. The latter is usually quicker, but if the sound is changing rapidly, you can't get away with that.
Ian Alexander
__________________________________________________ _____
Wow.:o

[jazzboxmaker]

I've never gotten very good with the pencil tool. Too much coffee?
Practice! Pencil is your friend-awesome @ fixing Bass guitar fret pop clack snap over:)

[Ian Alexander]

Practice! Pencil is your friend-awesome @ fixing Bass guitar fret pop clack snap over:)
I have thought about getting a pen interface to use with the pencil.:o I'm not an artist at all, and the mouse doesn't help my (lack of) drawing skills.

[Tom Roberts]

I thought we didn't need pens and pencils anymore now that we all have computers.:)

Thomas

[Dave Labrecque]

What I'd really like is an input device that would allow me to leverage my "writing my name in the snow" skills. I'm very proficient, you know.

P.S. Don't eat yellow snow.

[Tom Roberts]

It's more fun to use some else's handwriting.:)

Thomas

[TotalSonic]

Got to say in my direct experience that having an interpolating click and crackle remover algorithm - such the one in the truly excellent bang for buck "Studio Clean" plugin suite from http://www.acondigital.com - will way more than not gives dramatically better results than using the "pencil" to redraw wave forms for the same purpose. Generally I just split a region from zero to zero point around the offending artifact and pull it to a separate track where the plugin is loaded so I only process the areas which need it - and save time bothering to have to locate the exact position of the noise as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Ian Alexander]

Got to say in my direct experience that having an interpolating click and crackle remover algorithm - such the one in the truly excellent bang for buck "Studio Clean" plugin suite from http://www.acondigital.com - will way more than not gives dramatically better results than using the "pencil" to redraw wave forms for the same purpose. Generally I just split a region from zero to zero point around the offending artifact and pull it to a separate track where the plugin is loaded so I only process the areas which need it - and save time bothering to have to locate the exact position of the noise as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Interesting. Thanks Steve.