Making a decent sounding live band CD on a budget (featuring SAC)...

[Donnie Frank]

Hey doods,

I just finished this tutorial. Most of you probably know this stuff already, but I made the video for fun anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qcGa6zI2y8

[badgerman]

Thats a nifty way of doing it.

[Donnie Frank]

Thats a nifty way of doing it.

Thanx. Glad you liked it.

Here's a video I did with a rock band using the same technique. Unfortunately I had to use an analog house system for the board mix. It honestly wasn't nearly as a good as a SAC mix, but when mixed with the live camera microphones, it doesn't sound bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho9H37p4JHE

[Cary B. Cornett]

Nice video example. Nothin' like a demonstration with sub-titles. :cool: Simple, sensible, and I probably would not have thought of it (I have a talent for doing things the hard way, at least at first). :rolleyes:

[Discipled1]

Hi Donnie
Thanks for the samples and info. On the Gregg Daigle Band vid how many cams were used it looks like at least 2? Also: 1, what kind of camcorders are you using? 2. What lighting filters were used, if any and what program do you use to put it all together?
Do you think that a better mic than the cameras would give a better result ?
Thanks for sharing your work.


Greg

[Guitarkeys.com]

Do you think that a better mic than the cameras would give a better result ?

Greg

Not Donnie, but yes. A couple of condenser mics properly placed in the room will give a superior result.

Jamie

[Donnie Frank]

Hi Donnie

Thanks for the samples and info.




My pleasure.






On the Gregg Daigle Band vid how many cams were used it looks like at least 2?



Correct.





Also: 1, what kind of camcorders are you using?



The "static" camera was a Panasonic HD camera. I have been using this camera for a while. It does well when lighting is good. But as you can tell from the video, not-so-well in low lighting conditions.

The dynamic camera is a Sony Cybershot DSC-HX1. This is my girlfriend's camera and honestly one of the best-kept "secrets" in the HD video industry. The Cybershot is intended as a still camera but takes awesome HD video, as well. The secret is the optics. My Panasonic uses some kind of cheap, Chinese lens while the Sony uses a much nicer Japanese lens.

At this point in the industry, the back end of consumer-grade HD cameras (processing) is roughly the same...*roughly*. If I pan my Panasonic too quickly, I'm given a warning. It can't take in the data that quickly. I don't get that with the Sony. Sony really brags about it processor...can't remember which one their using...but it's one they brag about. The end result is you can do *amazing* things with the Sony, including seamless HD panoramic pictures and burst shooting - something one would normally find in an expensive SLR camera only.

Concerning file formats, different companies use different compression algorithms, but the end result is roughly the same. The Sony uses MPEG-4, for example, while the Panasonic cranks .mkv files. I'm not an expert on the semantics of these compression codecs so please don't ask. There are SO many of them....it's ridiculous.

What separates the HX1 from all other cameras are the optics. You can clearly see in the video that the hand-held camera takes much better video. As of this time last year, it was the only HD camera with 20x optical zoom. I believe Panasonic has come up with a 30x, but I'm not sure. I can tell you that the Cybershot is, by far, the best HD video camera you can find for 300 bucks. It will rival video taken on prosumer cameras costing 10 times as much.

I have a buddy with a pair of $3,000.00 Panasonic cameras. It was great being able to snub him because is $3k camera only does 12x optical zoom. His cameras have many more bells and whistles (time-coding, external mic plugs, etc). But if you compare video side-by-side, the *quality* of the Cybershot rivals that of the Panasonic. It's like comparing SAC to a PM5D. However the Panasonic takes MUCH better audio. The Sony audio is very thin. The Sony's audio is okay for mixing with a board mix, but sucks on its own.

Here's a single-camera video I took using the Panasonic. Notice that the audio is not bad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZoz6m-4SHE

I've been thinking of continuing to record with the Panasonic for the audio track *only*. But I can use a Zoom H4 for that. There are many options.




2. What lighting filters were used,



None.




if any and what program do you use to put it all together?




I bounce back and fourth between Avid (Pinnacle 14 HD) and Final Cut Pro. All 2-camera stuff is done in FCP. However I find Pinnacle MUCH easier to use, so if I'm doing only single camera video (like my tutorial video), then I use Pinnacle. Changing audio levels in Pinnacle takes seconds - VERY user-friendly. In FCP, you have export the files to SoundTrack Pro - HUGE PITA. I'm still fumbling my way around the Mac environment. If there's an easy way to change audio levels within the FCP environment, I haven't found it. There is a LOT to know in the Final Cut Studio suite.




Do you think that a better mic than the cameras would give a better result ?



Sure. Like I said, I may use my H4 Zoom as the "live" mic OR my Panasonic camera. I presently directly inject final board mix into the H4. The H4 has a "4 channel" mode that I haven't used yet. However...though I complain about the "brightness" of the Sony mic's, they may actually be a better compliment to the board mix. At this point I'm still experimenting. And no, you can not connect an external mic. to the Sony...yet another feature you don't get for $300.00.






Thanks for sharing your work.

Greg

My pleasure.

[Donnie Frank]

Not Donnie, but yes. A couple of condenser mics properly placed in the room will give a superior result.

Jamie

If recording using SAW, this is, of course, ideal. You could then mix ambient room mic's into your final mix. I haven't been able to afford SAW yet, and don't know what the limitations are for the $100.00 version of SAW. At this point I'm happy to run 2 channels out to the H4, but obviously that is a very limiting way of doing things. However it is a "what you hear is what you get" situation.

Keep in mind that the H4 IS 2 condenser microphones. And it does a great job picking up ambient room audio when simply set on the table.

If I could record just the 2 main channels in SAW, that would be how I would do it. I would then mix in the H4 audio for ambiance. But it's my understanding that, at this point, that is not possible in SAW. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Brent Evans]

If recording using SAW, this is, of course, ideal. You could then mix ambient room mic's into your final mix. I haven't been able to afford SAW yet, and don't know what the limitations are for the $100.00 version of SAW. At this point I'm happy to run 2 channels out to the H4, but obviously that is a very limiting way of doing things. However it is a "what you hear is what you get" situation.

Keep in mind that the H4 IS 2 condenser microphones. And it does a great job picking up ambient room audio when simply set on the table.

If I could record just the 2 main channels in SAW, that would be how I would do it. I would then mix in the H4 audio for ambiance. But it's my understanding that, at this point, that is not possible in SAW. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not in SAW, but you can use the TapeIt plug on any VST patch point in SAC to record the signal at that point in the path. A good way to do it is set up a post-fader monitor mixer with null out and put TapeIt as the last plug on O-1 post fader, then you can insert comp and EQ before it as desired and get a nice dry mix independent of your FOH EQ, as well as control the balance in the tape mix to overcome acoustic conveyance.

[905shmick]

You could use the s/pdif loopback trick to record your main L/R feed with SAW.

Send the mix out the s/pdif channel and back into SAC via s/pdif. On the s/pdif input channel, make sure it's not assigned to any outputs. Add that channel to your SAW recording and now you have an MT + Mix recording.

[Trackzilla]

I've done that 4 channel recording method for years, audio only. I 'officially offer' several methods of remote recording designed to allow the customer to choose a quality of result that will meet their budget.

Simple 2 track board or ambient mix, available immediately post show.

4 track combination of above. Sometimes I have that available post show as well, depends on if I am happy with the time alignment and balance of the combined tracks, but I prefer to fix those in a more controlled environment.

Full multitrack. When doing those I always use at least two ambient mics added to the config record the board mix as well, then I can burn the board mix immediately post show to give the customer a reference of the night's performance. That board mix will allow them to check for performance quality before they have the additional time & $ spent on mixdowns. Often they are only interested in tweaking some songs rather than the whole night.

The 4 track method is by far the most popular and with some attention it can often yield amazing results.

[Donnie Frank]

I've done that 4 channel recording method for years, audio only. I 'officially offer' several methods of remote recording designed to allow the customer to choose a quality of result that will meet their budget.



So far I have been offering sort of the same thing, but in a video package. The hierarchy is:

1) Static camera with microphone audio
2) Static camera with board audio mixed in
3) 2-camera with board audio

Like you, I basically burn a low resolution DVD of the entire night so they can choose songs based on performance quality. I just started providing this service like 3 months ago, so my prices have been very low. $100.00 for initial recording and DVD, and then 75 bucks per song for the 2 camera stuff. I haven't had a single person ask for single camera video, so I'm not sure what I would charge for that. I know it's not a lot of money to ask, but I'm still learning Final Cut Pro and this is a great excuse to "earn while I learn."




Simple 2 track board or ambient mix, available immediately post show.



How do you get the media file to them? Do you tell them to bring an external drive or large thumb drive or something?




4 track combination of above. Sometimes I have that available post show as well, depends on if I am happy with the time alignment and balance of the combined tracks, but I prefer to fix those in a more controlled environment.



Since my ambient audio is usually off the camera mic's and the board mix is courtesy an H4 Zoom, audio *never* lines up. The H4 audio has been consistently 2 frames longer than the camera audio for a 3-4 minute song. Once I shrink the H4 audio by 2 frames, it lines up perfectly.




Full multitrack. When doing those I always use at least two ambient mics added to the config record the board mix as well, then I can burn the board mix immediately post show to give the customer a reference of the night's performance. That board mix will allow them to check for performance quality before they have the additional time & $ spent on mixdowns. Often they are only interested in tweaking some songs rather than the whole night.



Because of my Mackie Onyx, I have offered this package for over a year.

http://drummerdonnie.com/sound/LiveDigitalRecording.html

I've sold a few of these packages. I find the post-production a LOT of work. Please feel free to peruse example .mp3's strewn throughout the page.




The 4 track method is by far the most popular and with some attention it can often yield amazing results.

<nod> Agreed. The 4-track method offers, by far, the best result:work ratio...though I do prefer to mix the tracks in my office environment.

[Trackzilla]

Since mine are all audio from the same computer, the number of frames isn't a consideration, I have to adjust for the distance of the ambient mics though...it affects the color of the whole mix.

But having a rough available end of show is easy as long as it is understood that it is a rough & might bear some improvement. During breaks I transfer the desired files to Lappy for the last set, convert as appropriate for their desired format & media, and burn them. If they provide their own media I transfer/burn them to that. If they are doing their own post show mixdown then I can often have the whole MT burned to DVDs or transferred to their drive within a few minutes of show end as well. Lappy easily burns while doing remote duties for SAC & SAW.