Drums?

[matt]

I have been using the tempo mode in SS and placing drum samples to create beats much the same as you would do in MIDI. This works well but if I want to try different tempos I have to manually shift each sample. Is there any way to have the samples lock to the grid? Or, can Midi Workshop trigger samples from the library?

[TotalSonic]

Or, can Midi Workshop trigger samples from the library?

Matt - MWS can easily trigger samples loaded into a VSTi sampler. There are a number of ones out there - I'd recommend checking out
Kontakt - http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?kontakt_us
or VSampler - http://www.maz-sound.com

If you're looking for a simple free one that works well in SAWStudio Loopazoid can get you started - http://www.loopazoid.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Burkeville]

I agree, Kontact is great.

[Bob L]

The MWS is perfect for creating tempo tracks that are free to change when you alter the timeline tempos and time sigs.

In fact it is a snap in the MWS to do so...

If used for nothing else... its worth its price in my book... or to use just as a playback engine for perfectly synced midi files created in your favorite sequencer... much better and simpler than the old days of dragging other sequencers along with link plugins and Smpte or MTC.

And once you start getting comfortable in there... you may find you like creating and editing midi in it also... yes its different than the rest of what you're used to... but heh... so is SAWStudio... :)

Re-visit it again if you haven't looked for a while... its always evolving and the missing features are starting to fill in.

Bob L

[AudioAstronomer]

I've been looking into this too. Im more interested in a standalone "instrument" though. I really dont like linking my recording device with the actual production of music. It really is a bear to have a client standing over your shoulder (or *GASP* using your daw) to create a drum loop or splice up a drum track to loop.

When I was flickering between nuendo and samplitude, I setup a special "midi" area for people more familiar with midi than myself. Just had copy of cubase on it with a few plugin's, and I let clients bring their own software (legal or not, if people purchase a virtual instrument, I think they should be able to cart it around, i delete it when they leave no matter how cool i think it is). This worked well and I would like to get back to it. I dont think I can put anyone through the torture of using those softwares.

Something like reason comes to mind. Wow would it be cool to be able to rewire straight from the midi lab or clients computer to sawstudio. Eh, not possible right now though :) Just musing.

Im still thinking about MWS for my own personal use. It sure looks promising, and being a midiot like I am, I doubt any "missing" features would bother me at all.

[Bob L]

A simple hardware drum module like the old Alesis D4 or DM5 can make metronome or tempo tracks simple as can be with the MWS and its Click Conductor track.

Or, the free plugin called LoopaZoid and a few simple kick and snare samples can do the same thing without hardware or even midi ports.

I use this technique all the time for starting new tracks with an artist who will play to preset tempo (click) tracks. From there it's easy to overdub midi parts to accompany the live parts.

Or I create simple tempo tracks to live performances, for those artists who feel the need to play their base tracks live, by using the Tempo Mapping feature in the MWS. From there, I can use midi to do the same accompaniment, even though the original tracks are not in perfect time... the midi tempo map allows the midi tracks to chase perfectly... and I can easily quantize new midi percussion parts if need be.

Bob L

[matt]

Thanks for the info on virtual samplers, but I don't like the sound quality of any of the ones I've heard. I even notice a substantial difference between the JMS plugs (which are on par with Waves) and SAWStudio plugs. I was hoping to be able to trigger samples with The Midi Workshop (which is really solid) without introducing inferior programming via virtual instruments.

[bertie]

hi Matt, :)


why don't you try and use Reason Propellerhead?

I use this one exactly for the same needs as you and it works very well you have a feel like working in SAW :) (trust me)

and it's so easy to learn...never crashes...full of different useful things...and most important YOU CAN RECORD YOUR LOOPS FROM REASON LIVE IN SAWstudio by setting the Windows mixer :)


Bertie (lifetime SAWStudio user) :)

[Dingo]

YOU CAN RECORD YOUR LOOPS FROM REASON LIVE IN SAWstudio by setting the Windows mixer CAn you explain how to do this?

[Jesse Skeens]

I even notice a substantial difference between the JMS plugs (which are on par with Waves) and SAWStudio plugs.


Which ones in particular?

[bertie]

CAn you explain how to do this?

Sure :)


There are two methods of doing this:

Method1. Open SAWStudio and set up 1st track for recording then open reason or other similar software you use and set up your sound or loop you're going to play. Then open windows sound mixer and on the recording option enable Stereo Mixer option or similar depending from your soundcard manufacturer this option is used for recording internal sounds within the Windows!
NOTE:This is just for recording a very first track from your sample and sound software to SAW! This means that after you record the first track and then you want to record another in the same way as first track then you will end up record both signals, the one you just recorded in track 1 and the one you are currently recording in track 2 and both will be recorded in track 2.

Method2.(recommended) This method is the one i use in my studio.

1. You need to have two soundcards installed in your PC.
2. You need to have a mixing desk or similar. (you probably have it)

Now, e.g. you have primary soundcard and secondary.
The outputs of primary soundcard are connected to the PA or similar for monitoring and the inputs to mixing desk.
The secondary soundcard will be used just for playing various sampling and synthesizer software. The inputs of this soundacard remain not connected, but the output is connected to the line in on the mixing desk L+R.

For recording from xxx sampling software to SAWStudio you should select the secondary soundcard as input in SAWStudio on specific track you want to record, and you should set also the volume in you mixing desk from where the sounds of the xxxsampling software should be manipulated and recorded through primary soundcard.
So now you are equiped with PC that can not only record but also act as a sampling hardware or synthesizer and all that at the same time. :)
HAPPY? :)

USE THIS ONLY IF YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH $(LIKE ME :) )TO BUY AN EXTRA PC FOR SAMPLING SOFTWARES AND OTHERS.

Bertie (lifetime SAWStudio user) :)

[TotalSonic]

Thanks for the info on virtual samplers, but I don't like the sound quality of any of the ones I've heard. I even notice a substantial difference between the JMS plugs (which are on par with Waves) and SAWStudio plugs. I was hoping to be able to trigger samples with The Midi Workshop (which is really solid) without introducing inferior programming via virtual instruments.

Matt -
The sound quality of a VSTi sampler is only limited by the sound quality of the samples you use. Use excellent sounding samples with a full resolution VSTi sampler (i.e. both Kontakt and VSampler can stream up to 24bit 96kHz wav or aif files) and you get the same sound as if you had placed these sample files directly on the multitrack. Where degradation comes into play is the algorithms used to pitch a sample up or down - but if you use a sample bank that has a seperate sample for each key (i.e. there are a number of libraries on CD-ROM or DVD-ROM that have this level of detail commercially available) and you're set.

I agree regarding the plugins as I tend to prefer using the JMS Hi-Res EQ over the console eq because of the gui, the shelving filter options, and I subjectively feel it tends to be slightly smoother sounding for a lot of things. I also really like the Waves RCL, PSP Mixpressor, JMS Mark III comp (a beta which he never released) & Smart Electronix H20 for compression over the console compressor for critical tracks as I really like their particular color options. Where the console comps are great to me is there efficiency as you truly can get 72 going all at once with almost no load to the session while still getting a very good sound from them.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[matt]

The sound quality of a VSTi sampler is only limited by the sound quality of the samples you use

Actually, no. Running the signal through any plugin, unless designed not to, will color the sound.


I agree regarding the plugins as I tend to prefer using the JMS Hi-Res EQ over the console eq

You must have misunderstood. The console EQ, Studio EQ, console dynamics, and Levelizer sound cleaner than the HiRes EQ and the Program Compressor. I own both JMS plugs and have done extensive listening tests. The JMS stuff is good, but the SAW stuff is better.

[AudioAstronomer]

Actually, no. Running the signal through any plugin, unless designed not to, will color the sound.


I must disagree. Taking a sample at the same resolution and sample rate as the project, and playing it back would not change the sample.

I think you two must be talking about very different things.

I can agree on the SAW stuff, I like the SS eq/comp much better than the JMS, but that's just a personal opinion :)

[Carlos Mills]

I must disagree. Taking a sample at the same resolution and sample rate as the project, and playing it back would not change the sample.

I think you two must be talking about very different things.

I can agree on the SAW stuff, I like the SS eq/comp much better than the JMS, but that's just a personal opinion :)

Since we are talking about personal opinions, SAW`s Eq are good, but with JMS`s HiEq I can get quickier to where I want. I find it extremely musical. Actually, this is the only Eq tool I use (including for mastering). ahn Except for the Waves Multi Band Linear Compressor, which is an absolutely MUST to me. :p
SS compressor`s sound great. Since they are also very low CPU intensive, I use them all the time.

Regards,

[matt]

When I record my own stuff with a Precision 8 (distributed by Neumann) I use only RML plugs. They have no colouration, much like the P8. When I have to master an average project that needs some color, I use JMS. Preference is subjective, but there are technical facts that are constant.

[TotalSonic]

Actually, no. Running the signal through any plugin, unless designed not to, will color the sound.

If the plugin & the DAW's internal signal path is designed correctly it should not do this unless there is glitching due to lack of cpu power or if the plugin is designed to "cheat" by outputting at lower quality in order to make sure that the stream in uninterrupted. I'd say judgements would need to be made on a plugin by plugin and host by host basis. It'd be interesting to test the various VSTi plugins performance in SAW by building a mix of a triggered sample and then see whether they phase cancel properly when put against the original sample file. In a possibly relevant side note - I use Orion Platinum a lot as a VSTi host/loop sequencer and have always achieved much better sounding mixes by streaming each VSTi's outputs to a seperate wav file at Orions "best quality" setting and then mixing in SAW.

To my mind though - if you are hearing these tiny colorations from samplers that make such a difference to you - hirer a real musician! :) We need the work!


You must have misunderstood. The console EQ, Studio EQ, console dynamics, and Levelizer sound cleaner than the HiRes EQ and the Program Compressor. I own both JMS plugs and have done extensive listening tests. The JMS stuff is good, but the SAW stuff is better.

Well - for things like eq's and comps this is definitely a subjective taste thing. Your statement makes me want to try out some tests again - it's been a while since I've tried any real apples to apples comparison a/b's between them. I believe that the introduction of the Hi-Res EQ might have influenced some design decisions made by Bob when he completely revised the SAWStudio console EQ's (which originally operated on integer math - but was discovered to have been producing a minute amount of DC offset in some settings) shortly after the Hi-res EQ came out - so they now both operate on floating point math.

I just really wish that I could get the same results from a digital plugin as I get from the Neumann OE-DUO's we have at Europadisk for things like high end boosts but I guess there are still reasons why analog eq's are useful tools too. To me we're just lucky to have so many great options at our finger tips and I find I use both the console eq and the JMS Hi-Res EQ, and a number of other DX & VST eq plugins all the time.

I'm a big of the Levelizer myself and also still use it all the time . I think its a very underated peak limiter because things like the Waves L2 can squash farther allowing you to get insane amounts of average level but in subtler settings I think the Levelizer can be more transparent. The JMS Program Comp isn't one of my faves either although it can have its uses. Anyway - as always - OMMV.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

Is there a way for a person to trigger samples at specific points without MWS? Say I have a sampler, how would I be able to send midi to it (as I dont have any midi i/o on any of my daws atm).

[AudioAstronomer]

I've been looking into this too. Im more interested in a standalone "instrument" though. I really dont like linking my recording device with the actual production of music. It really is a bear to have a client standing over your shoulder (or *GASP* using your daw) to create a drum loop or splice up a drum track to loop.

When I was flickering between nuendo and samplitude, I setup a special "midi" area for people more familiar with midi than myself. Just had copy of cubase on it with a few plugin's, and I let clients bring their own software (legal or not, if people purchase a virtual instrument, I think they should be able to cart it around, i delete it when they leave no matter how cool i think it is). This worked well and I would like to get back to it. I dont think I can put anyone through the torture of using those softwares.

Something like reason comes to mind. Wow would it be cool to be able to rewire straight from the midi lab or clients computer to sawstudio. Eh, not possible right now though :) Just musing.

Im still thinking about MWS for my own personal use. It sure looks promising, and being a midiot like I am, I doubt any "missing" features would bother me at all.

www.yowstar.com Looks very promising for what I'm after personally. Quick to figure out and start working with. Enjoying this greatly.

[TotalSonic]

Is there a way for a person to trigger samples at specific points without MWS? Say I have a sampler, how would I be able to send midi to it (as I dont have any midi i/o on any of my daws atm).

You could use any sequencer slaved to SAW's MTC to send synched midi to a VSTi loaded in SAW. It's timing won't be as tight as if you triggered from MWS but it still will be very good. If you are running the external MIDI sequencer on the same DAW you can either loop a physical MIDI cable back or use a Virtual Midi port. My tests have shown that the Maple Virtual Midi Cables available from http://www.marblesound.com are most compatible with SAWStudio and suggest using them instead of other options like MIDI OX's Midi Yoke.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

You could use any sequencer slaved to SAW's MTC to send synched midi to a VSTi loaded in SAW. It's timing won't be as tight as if you triggered from MWS but it still will be very good. If you are running the external MIDI sequencer on the same DAW you can either loop a physical MIDI cable back or use a Virtual Midi port. My tests have shown that the Maple Virtual Midi Cables available from http://www.marblesound.com are most compatible with SAWStudio and suggest using them instead of other options like MIDI OX's Midi Yoke.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Yes, Im going to try this with some old scoring software I have (and use daily). But if I use a virtual midi cable, how will the 2 softwares know to start together?

[TotalSonic]

Yes, Im going to try this with some old scoring software I have (and use daily). But if I use a virtual midi cable, how will the 2 softwares know to start together?

First you need to slave the sequencer to SAW's timing - so your sequencer app must be able to slave to incoming Midi Time Code and have it's playback start be able to be triggered from MTC start. Most midi sequencers and certainly all the pro ones like recent versions of Cubase or Sonar are able to do this though.

Under the menu go to
Options -> Sync Device Setup -> MTC Device Out 01 ->
and then select the Virtual Midi Out Port that you are sending to your sequencer's sync in port (you'll need to also set this same port up in your MIDI app as it's sync in).

Next under the menu in
Smpte/Mtc Sync make sure "Generate Mtc Sync" is checked.

Under Smpte/Mtc Format it usually is best to choose 30 Non-Drop for tightest timing (the only reason not to use this is if you are working with synced video on the same session that has a different rate) and make sure this is selected in your Midi app also.

Next load your VSTi into an input track and left-click the blue triangle. This will pop up a dialog box whose first entry is "Set SoftSynth Midi-In Port". Set this to an unused Virtual Midi In Port that you are sending Midi Note & Controller messages from in your Midi sequencer.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bob L]

Sure is a lot easier to just use the MWS for the playback, at least... no sync issues or cable routing or MTC or Smpte to deal with... and absolutely stable sync.

Seems like you might be making this midi thing more complicated than it need be. :)

Don't forget, you can also just place simple midi commands to trigger extenal device program changes and things like that directly on the Control Track.

Bob L

[AudioAstronomer]

Can Sawstudio pass midi data from FX plug to FX plug? I know it is supported by the VST standard, and many hosts allow this. A plug that say turns audio into midi, then followed immediately by a sampler.

[Bob L]

No... I did not get into passing Midi data through the MT loop directly...

I am only allowing the MWS to use the virtual MWS ports to pass Midi data back to the plugs in the audio side of the engine.

Bob L

[TotalSonic]

Can Sawstudio pass midi data from FX plug to FX plug? I know it is supported by the VST standard, and many hosts allow this. A plug that say turns audio into midi, then followed immediately by a sampler.

While SAW won't do this you can get a similar thing by using the DX plugin Drumagog - which allows samples to be triggered when audio passes a set threshold. http://www.drumagog.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

While SAW won't do this you can get a similar thing by using the DX plugin Drumagog - which allows samples to be triggered when audio passes a set threshold. http://www.drumagog.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson

I was hoping to use one of the many VST effect based sequencers :)

Dont know why Im trying so hard to not buy MWS... midi scares me.

[Perry]

I was hoping to use one of the many VST effect based sequencers :)

Dont know why Im trying so hard to not buy MWS... midi scares me.


:) FWIW... I'm scared too! I'm trying to get over it. It's tough though. Are there any support groups for "fear of midi". Maybe they could help us. :eek:

Perry :)

[Bob L]

I just completed a session with an old freind who would never want to talk about the idea of midi... he was a live musician kind of a guy forever...

Last month we took some of his live tracks and embellished them with some midi in the MWS... drum and percussion tracks, some Bass, and some keyboard and synth parts...

Now all he wants to do is re-do all his old live band tracks and fix everything... the bad time being the main starting point... :)

I actually took some tracks with tempos all over the place and laid out a straight time MWS conductor track that was cenetered around the average of the live tracks... then we cut up the live guitars and bass and keyboard tracks into small measures where the performance was reasonable and replaced the bad timing sections with dups of these other sections, literally recreating the performance where possible... the results are pretty interesting and now the tempo doesn't waver, and it still carries the sound of the live performance instruments...

Jump into the MWS and Midi may become fun again... it is definitely different than live audio... and the two together can offer some incredible possibilities.

Bob L

[AudioAstronomer]

I even felt i had to ask my wife's permission to install the demo... she heard me say midi and said NO! not again!

Yeah, me and midi have a bad history. One that involves the eventual implant of a 19" crt into a block house... only time in my life I can remember getting angry enough to act physically on the anger.

Must take deep breaths and try :) Deeeeep breaths.