Well its MIDI time, couple fo questions?

[trock]

HI all

My first question may stave off the rest...............er well you know

ok back in the day on the MAC i had cubase running. i needed to pull drum tracks off my triton pro workstation.

i would set the triton to external midi sync and set cubase to sync and wullah i would hit play/record on cubase and it would start the triton.

now the reason this was important is because i would write my drums parts as a stereo track for the song but then copy that drum part to the 4 remaning tracks on the triton and then erase everything but a particular drum. WHY? so i could have 4-5 ind drum tracks in cubase and control levels better.

so i would copy the track to track 3 and erase everythin but the kick, to track 4 and erase everything but the snare, to track 5 and erase everything but the hi hat and say toms etc

it wasn't perfect but it gave me a lot more power and onctrol over my drums than a stereo track would

anyway i digress

to connect my MAC and Cubase to the triton i had a MIDI/USB cable - MIDI in/out in the triton and USB in the mac - i was using an RME fireface 800 at5 this time but did not use any of it for MIDI

now that i am on a PC and in SAW my set up is this

PC/SAW firewire m-audio 410 (which also has MIDI in and OUT)

so do i need a normal IN/OUT into my 410?? for my midi or can i re use this MIDI/USB cable into the PC and somehow set that up in SAW??

any help would be greatly appreciated

[Oz Nimbus]

trock
ok back in the day on the MAC i had cubase running.


Wow. I'm sorry.

[trock]

Brother you ain't kidding

[mikebuzz]

Trock I think tou can use either ?? goto options and set up the midi device ( m-audio) as the in/out device , then goto smte/midi and set the mtc to generate , connect the midi out/in to the triton this should work.

When you start SAW recording it should trigger the triton.

Later
Buzz

[Bob L]

Be aware that SAWStudio will send MTC or Smpte sync code... not midi song position pointer sync with start and stop commands.

Things may have to work a little differently than you are used to.... in fact, you may find that you would be better off creating the drum tracks as independent tracks right in the Midi WorkShop add-on.

You may have to playback the Triton and all the drum tracks at once to get them into SAWStudio if the Triton does not like MTC code.

If all the drum tracks in the Triton use different midi channels, you can do a multi-channel midi record in the MWS in one pass and the MWS will split the different midi channel signals to different tracks.

Bob L

[Mitch]

So Bob... this would also apply, lets say, to a DR880 or any other drum machine that xmits and receives midi clock right ? SAW does not generate midi clock at all ?

So help me out here...

I've got some tunes fully developed as patterns/songs on a DR880 drum machine. What is the method by which I can get the individual drums onto separate tracks, all in sync, starting at "zero" into SAW ? OR get the entire midi file into MWS, then (I'm assuming) I can split the parts into separate tracks somehow ? Then have to map them back to the DR880 to get the sounds ?

[Bob L]

No midi clock... only MTC or Smpte.

But, the MWS has a feature called Multichannel record... it will automatically split all midi data for each of the 16 midi channels to separate tracks in the MWS Multitrack... in one recording pass... so, if your drum machine or sequencer keeps each track on a separate midi channle, you can simply play the sequence one time and all 16 misi channels will be separated onto 16 MWS tracks.

No sync needed.

Bob L

[trock]

thanks all and bob

i am leaning towards the MIDI patch in SAW just for this reason

things will be different but thats ok, i just have to get my method down for SAW

i am also going to be going with the 880 from here on out fro drums

so mitch you questions is exactly what i want to know

thanks all

[Mitch]

Trock, I got a bad feeling about this... I think were SOL here with the DR880 as far as I can tell ? Dont think it can output individual midi tracks... all I can see is a global channel select.

Hard to believe it's going to be this tough to sync a drum machine up to SAW... I'm a total midiot and new to SAW and computer recording in general but it cant be this tough can it ?

[SoundSuite]

setup mws to match your tempo, signature, etc of the dr880 song.

plug midi out of DR880 into MIDI in of MWS

Arm MWS track 1 to record thru this MIDI input, hit record, then just hit play on the DR880.

This should at least play the song into MWS as a midi sequence.
Then, once its in, select all entries and re-alighn on beat.

This should be the worst case scenario, in general.
I actually had one to try it with, I'd know for sure, but this method works to get a MIDI sequence out of one of my keyboards into MWS.

good luck

[AudioAstronomer]

It works Jon, I tried it last night while I was going over the thingie with tim...

He's making me relearn that silly 880 thing again ha!

Oh well, this is a good opportunity for me to really dig into midi. No better way to learn something really quick than have to explain it to someone else!

[Mitch]

I'm all up for learning a new way of doing things by all means ! I'll even spend some money if need be ! ;)

For those of us not fortunate enough to be able to track live drums, what tools and process are you using for your drum tracks ?

[SoundSuite]

Mitch,

I personally use a Yamaha DD55 to beat the midi notes into MWS.
*note the kick drum head pad taped in place under the top left trigger...
With this here, you hit it instead of the pad, and its a ding of the pads sound because it rattles it's trigger soooo lighty*
http://www.clanmist.com/files/posttunes/gearpics/YamahaDD55-Front.jpg

I wouldn't recommend it highly, but it was great for the cash.
In other words, It it it ok for the drums and kick, but the HH function is open or closed or chink...no variations of open.

For a basher type player, it may actually be a great solution.
My drummer is a HH guy, so we're trying to build a triggering solution into his accoustic kit...(and also making just electros out of old shells and windows screens, lol)
http://www.clanmist.com/files/posttunes/gearpics/kev-drums01.jpg
Lots of triggers to make ;)

If I ever get something that is 'right' as a diy, I'll post it, but now all we have is principles and tests.

[trock]

WOW!

thanks Mitch and robert and everyone

hmmmmmm

this almost leads me back to BFD fxpansion in the PC?? vs the 880 outboard??

the individual tracks vs a stereo track are pretty important to me since laot of my drums SO FAR have been me pounding them out on the triton not by note measure for measure and the levels in stereo are never right, so taking them out individually were very important.

i was hoping with the 880 to be able to do this with SAW through midi

or go back to the triton and get the RME and then just run 5 TRS cables between the triton and RME, at least i could get 5 ins that way. on the 410 here i don't have enough ins

hmmm

this is a good learning experience

once i get the drum part to where i need it my foundation for recording will be back in place since i am cursed to have abeen a drummer and not be able to have a set where i am at anymore. so all these machines never get me where i need to go, hence the finger methond on the triton. you should see me pound ou some neal pert fill with my fingers on those keys :D

right


ok back to learning, keep me posted mitch on the 880. if i have to go analog to get 5 tracks then that is what i will have to do

[SoundSuite]

Once you get the MIDI into MWS (or write it in), BFD or DFHS will do a drum part justice...both will also output each piece to separate tracks in SAW so you can gate, compress, eq, whatever to your hearts content.

good stuff.

[Mitch]

Thanks Jon !

So you're using SAW tools only ? Pounding the beats into MWS on the DD5 ?

I have DFHS but so far am not having much luck getting a note outta the thing under SAW ? Can get it to function in Sonar but in SAW I get "Not yet initialized" error or some such thing.

Seriously considering getting a used TrapKat or DrumKat w/ kick,HH pedals ?? hmmmmm....


THANKS again Jon !

[trock]

Hey jon

can you actually give a step by step on BFD?? and SAW and individual tracks??

MIDI/MWS?

not to big a question huh?

i haven't purchased BFD yet but if this seems to be a better choice i will probably return the 880 and get BFD and expansion pak

[TotalSonic]

fwiw -
Midi Clock / SPP CAN be generated in SAW using the SAW native JMS Audioware freeware Metronome plugin -

from the notes on http://www.jms-audioware.com/ss_click.htm

What's new in version 1.4?

The Metronome can now generate MIDI Clock messages to allow for syncronization with programs that accept this. Right-clicking anywhere on the Metronome display will open a menu featuring a 'Generate MIDI Clock' option, as well as 'MIDI Options.' The latter allows you to set which MIDI interface the messages will be sent to, while the 'Generate MIDI Clock' option is self-explanatory. Note that 'Generate MIDI Clock' can be toggled on or off during playback, with correct syncronization.

I was experimenting using this to try and sync Orion Platinum's pattern sequencer to SAW's timing - and had good results for some things - but found that drift was a little too much and sometimes lock was getting interrupted to make it useable during critical sessions. I know Jon used the meter timing hook for the clock timing updates and that this isn't actually ideal now that the API has been updated after he made this plugin with the release of MWS so that clock timing should be able to be made more accurate now. I had emailed Jon awhile ago asking whether he was going to possibly update this and he seemed interested but I know he is enormously busy with his very successful band (in part due to the great recordings he's done for it using SAW!), The Mosquitos. Perhaps someone can come out with a MC/SPP generator plugin with more accurate timing?

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[SoundSuite]

So you're using SAW tools only ? Pounding the beats into MWS on the DD5 ?
yup, all SAW/MWS and VSTi's with the DD55 as a trigger for now.
(if it had degrees of HH instead of just open/closed/chink, I'd actually love the DD55.)
Definately if you are curious, go bang on one first at the local music shop, it is kinda cheesy and kindergarten feeling, but it does do a good job for the low cost. I just use it for the triggers and trigger to midi interface.
I mute it's internal sounds, they are , um, not, um, good, imo
(too 'dancy' for my taste)
Kevin, my drummer kept eyeing my keyboard with his sticks one too many times, so I got it for him to beat on instead, lol.



I have DFHS but so far am not having much luck getting a note outta the thing under SAW ? Can get it to function in Sonar but in SAW I get "Not yet initialized" error or some such thing.
When you load in DFHS and it sits there smiling at you doing nothing but saying 'not yet initialized', rt.click on the Blue triangle to enguage SAW's Live Mode and initialize it the first time.
You should be fine after that.



Seriously considering getting a used TrapKat or DrumKat w/ kick,HH pedals ?? hmmmmm....
So am I, but we're building triggers first and I'm gonna use the guts of the DD55 for the MIDI trigger to midi interface, and end up buying something like a Roland for the HH trigger.



can you actually give a step by step on BFD?? and SAW and individual tracks??
wow..yeah, Lemme type, it'll come in a future reply after food.
...unless another user beats me to it, of course ;)

[Mitch]

COOL! Thanks again Jon. "Live" mode initialized DFHS !

I loaded up their tutorial midi file, picked a preset kit, press play... meters are movin', keys a flyin, but I cant hear a dang thing unless I select Windows synth... still have some configerin' to do I guess ? - I've selected my FW410 is midi in and out devices, port 01, ch 10 ... no audio. I know I havent given you much to go on here, but any clues why ? ...as I said earlier, I'm a midiot, so go easy eh? :)

Thanks again for the "live mode" tip. Been staring at the not yet initialized dialog box for a long time !

Steve, thanks for the tip on the Metronome ! I'll play with that as well. Is midi-clock going to be incorporated into MWS in the future, does anyone know ?

[Bob L]

No definite plans for midi clock timing... too much drift as everyone else who has played with midi and most other software packages can verify.

By the way Steve, the MWS uses the same timing hook as what has always been available to the plugin developers... nothing has really changed in that dept.

It seems no one is considering the tip I gave on simply playing back the sequencer machine with all drum tracks playing at once into the MWS multi-channel record mode... it really is the simplest way to extract sequences from hardware units... without trying to get the units to sync to anything. All midi channels are automatically separated to separte tracks in one pass.

Bob L

[Mitch]

Not sure I understand what this midi "drift" is all about ? Roland can do it in their VS2480....works like a champ...cant be that big a mystery eh ? Maybe it is, I dont know.... just been used to it the way I USED to work... Guess I'll find new ways to work that are just as effective!

[TotalSonic]

By the way Steve, the MWS uses the same timing hook as what has always been available to the plugin developers... nothing has really changed in that dept.


I'm not sure why Jon took the timing hook from the meter update - but to the best of my recollection on our email conversations when I was beta testing the MC/SPP generation for him - that's what he did. Maybe he can chime in here and clarify this if he is actually lurking.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bob L]

The hook used for the meter update is the same hook used for all locked timing... the video viewer uses the same hook as well as all the MWS timing... it is the tightest hook to the hardware timing information in the engine... there is nothing more to wait for. :)

Bob L

[AudioAstronomer]

It seems no one is considering the tip I gave on simply playing back the sequencer machine with all drum tracks playing at once into the MWS multi-channel record mode... it really is the simplest way to extract sequences from hardware units... without trying to get the units to sync to anything. All midi channels are automatically separated to separte tracks in one pass.

Bob L
I just must say, Ive spent about 4 hours (2 before this thread, 2 last night) with trock explaining this concept :)

He should be good to go once he buy's MWS which I think he's doing today with levelizer and the reverb.

[TotalSonic]

The hook used for the meter update is the same hook used for all locked timing... the video viewer uses the same hook as well as all the MWS timing... it is the tightest hook to the hardware timing information in the engine... there is nothing more to wait for. :)

Bob L

Interesting! I think I need to retest this as the last time I used it was almost a couple of years ago using a slower box so maybe the occasional timing interuptions I experienced pertain to my DAW's lifting power (running 2 apps simultaneously) and not to any of the coding of Jon's plugin itself.

Anyway I agree that seniding out MTC or just using MWS would give a lot tighter timing - problem is that I am trying to have the pattern/loop sequencers in Orion sync to SAW - and until Orion can sync to MTC (likely not to come as the author of Orion says ReWire is the way to go for synching his app to others), MWS has a pattern/loop view (which I understand is not planned) or there is a ReWire plugin for SAW (not likely to come soon as you say MTC is the way to go for synching other midi apps to SAW!) then I am stuck with less than elegant work arounds (such as sending out MC/SPP from SAW) for my desire of having these 2 apps play together nicely. No biggie.

btw - Robert - any progress on the ReWire plugin? ;)

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

It's dying... it's possible but IVe become discouraged as it slows performance and is an overall performance hog. Not something Id use... which makes developing it less than exciting.

It really is probabaly the worst development kit Ive seen in my life, and one of the worst ways of doing this kind of data sharing. Constant polling, resource hogging, weird master-slave relationships etc..

Honestly I thought propellerheads was a little more innovative before I actually started to work on it. Ive come to complete agreement with bob that rewire is crap :-\ (well Bob's a little more diplomatic... I should say I think it's crap)

[AudioAstronomer]

Btw I just sent out 2 plugins to beta people.. steve you should be getting one of them (the dither).

[Mitch]

Robert / Bob,

About the multi-channel record mode.... this is great for sequencers with multiple instruments, each on their own midi channel, but in the case of the drum machine (mine anyway, DR880), there can only be ONE midi channel, usually defaulted to 10, that ALL the drums are x-mitted on. What I need to be able to do, is separate each drum to its own audio track all from the single (ch10) midi track ? Is this possible ? What am I not getting about the mult-channel record mode in MWS ?

[AudioAstronomer]

Im still learning this midi stuff BUT... All you have to do is copy and paste the midi information to seperate tracks which I think you can do (I havent tried it yet)... then just solo the instrument you wish to record that time.

Perhaps there is a filter in MWS that would make that a lot easier?

Im still learning hehe :)

[Bob L]

For drum parts it should be very easy... once recorded into the MWS each different note or combinations of a few notes will usually be a certain drum or percussion sound...

Simply go into Select Mode in the MWS and click the first note, then press the End Key... all of those notes will be selected... grab them with the Ctrl-Mouse... and drag them down to the next track... you can easily separate each drum part in this manner...

You may then also want to set all the drum tracks to the same midi chan (or not) and port... do the first one, then select the other track numbers and use the copy settings command from the popup track properties menu to copy the settings to all the selected tracks.

Label the tracks and you have it... really very quick and easy to do.

Once the data is in the MWS, you never have to worry about sync again.

Bob L

[SoundSuite]

Sorry all,

I woke up too early, worked too much physical labor and then ate too much...
= passed out fat and happy :)

Here's the how-to about BFD (or DFHS) in MWS
I am assuming that MWS out 1 is Bob's virtual #1
I am Assuming that MWS in 1 is from your Hardware externally (keyboard or trigger)
I am also assuming that in SAW, i/o 1-x is 1-x
_______________________________________
Start a fresh session in SAW.


In MWS:
On MWS Track 1, rt.click on track label and set port = 1, channel = 10

In SAW:
On MT1, plugin 'BFD All' into Pre-Fader FX.

When BFD Initializes to the screen, click the blue triangle (or gold if using Yura's Uniform shade)
Set SoftSynth MIDI in port as MWS Virt. 1
Set SoftSynth MultiOut Chans as 1-14 (click each output listed and give it a checkmark)

Now, load up your drum sounds into BFD and get the samples ready to go.

Next, in SAW's Menu:
Mixer > Pre-FX Patch Signal Flow...check inputs 1-14
Mixer > EQ/Dyn Signal flow...check inputs 1-14
(this lets you do channel stuff in SAW and it prints on BFD's sounds.)

From here, you 'should' be set so you can enter Live mode and play BFD via MWS.
You should also be able to record in from your external gear, or write in your MIDI notes and play them with BFD juicing the sounds.

Once you have everything 'right' in the song, to get the BFD virtual sounds into SAW's MT, you just record from each respective 'channel' to the MT, hit SRP and you should end up with audio tracks for your BFD drumkit pieces to refine even more if you wish.

(DFHS is very similar if not identical to this procedure with the exception of having to traverse multiple menus and setup bleeds, etc.)

The main key is this...
You need to send MIDI from MWS to the VSTi on SAW's MT via the virtual midi port.
You also need to tell the VSTi itself what Virtual MIDI port in and what MT track(s) to use for it's output(s)

Once these two things are done, it should play it's default sounds.
...then setting "Mixer > Pre-FX Patch Signal Flow" and "Mixer > EQ/Dyn Signal flow" so the SAW channels effect the BFD plugin sound.

makes sense?

[SoundSuite]

Robert / Bob,

About the multi-channel record mode.... this is great for sequencers with multiple instruments, each on their own midi channel, but in the case of the drum machine (mine anyway, DR880), there can only be ONE midi channel, usually defaulted to 10, that ALL the drums are x-mitted on. What I need to be able to do, is separate each drum to its own audio track all from the single (ch10) midi track ? Is this possible ? What am I not getting about the mult-channel record mode in MWS ?

yup, channel 10 only (more than likely)

You can split the notes once they are in following Bob's advice with selcting the first, then end, etc.
I don't care to separate kick to a separate MWS channel from Snare separate from etc. I like to see the whole part in one MWS track.
(how much salt you prefer in your soup may differ)
*I do like to use Display > Note Color Mode > Full spectrum*
I find it easy to look at the colors and 'see' what dot is what drum piece.

[Mitch]

Bob, thanks for the MWS setup tip ! I'll give that a go....

Jon, nice instruction for BFD / DFHS setup too ! - I'm almost there but still have a snag or two to figure out...

I'm using DFHS. Got all set up as you describe but for some reason, DFHS does not want to load its samples into ram ? I pull up DFH drum midi example file, load in of their preset drum kits, play the file... MWS piano roll displays notes, DFHS "trigger" pads all flash blue etc. ... but I got NO audio ? I think it's becaus DFHS shows "ram loaded" = 0 - Probably some simple step I've overlooked in DFH but that's where I'm at ... close but no cigar. Any ideas what stupid thing I've forgot to do ? (other than to use BFD instead of DFH ?)

[SoundSuite]

Mitch,

Yes, if you are showing 0MB ram used, the samples are not loaded and this behavior you are seeing, ie DFHS flashing, but no sounds, would be correct.
It appears you have it all setup with the exception of loading the samples.

On the 'page' in DFHS with the huge grid of instruments and bleeds (ie, the Construction Window), down at the bottom left is the 'key' section you are looking for the load the samples into ram.

WARNING, don't even TRY to load more than what you have accesable minus at least 256MB...ie, 1GB of RAM, 768MB sample base is about all you are gonna get (from my experience at least)
You can try to load more, but when you hit 'that spot' it's not gonna be a pretty crash ;)

Once they are loaded, you then proceed to the next page of the plugin with the flashy light thingys...hopefully this time with sound ;)

[Mitch]

Almost with you Jon.. (thanks again!)

... I do not see any way to manually load the samples into ram. My experience with DFH under Sonar was such that once I select a kit, the samples just load automatically...

Once I select a kit or even an individual drum, I should be able to click the little "speaker" icon next to the drum to audition it's sound.... nada!

...(edited) Update... Dont know what I did or if I can duplicate it, but I have audio now ???

[Mitch]

Well.. I dont know how I got the DFHS samples loaded and the audio working, but I cant do it again :(


(edited):
OK, I got it ... Cant use "Cache On" ...turned it off and samples began loading up just fine.

[SoundSuite]

Mitch,

I'm glad you got it working properly.
DFHS is a heck of alot more kludgy to get 'sounding' than BFD, but it really is more definable.

You have experienced why for a new person having neither software, I recommend BFD ;)
DFHS is just a bear to get going by comparison.

[Mitch]

...OK, after 2 (not so pretty) crashes, I think BFD is at the top of my "I want" list ! :eek:

[SoundSuite]

...OK, after 2 (not so pretty) crashes, I think BFD is at the top of my "I want" list ! :eek:

...I can only imagine.

The 'best ever' DFHS crash was when I said ok, just load it all into ram..3+GB
It hit my memory limit, puked and kept trying to add to the memory that wasn't there.
CTRL+ALT+DEL = notta
ALT+F4 = notta
RESET button on chassis = notta
Power off button = notta

I ended up having to jerk the power cable out of the freaking wall to reset the daw, and the CLICK of the HD's not spinning down properly when I pulled the power cable made me spend 5 hours of HD diagnostics to insure they did not get damaged.

Believe me when I say this, do not try this at home, lol.