New to SAC and PC: I need advice?

[martiaudio]

Hello there,

I want to invest in a SAC and SAW software and set up my own system but I am new to that and to pc.. I have been a Mac and Protools user for years.. I want to change. Also my freelance work is FOH but I don't have the budget for a DiGiCo.. and NO Yamaha.. yet I'd like to develop business with my own digital console and recording too.. So SAC and SAW I guess seems great and what I have been looking for for a long time.
I have a sketch of a set up I am think of. I'd like to know what you think?
I need to know what PC to choose for the job.. should it be mono core with SAC and SAW software? Should it be XP, but I thought multitouch screen is only with Windows 7.. should it be a standard i7 4gigram, ...
All I think I know is that I need 2 different firewire for my lightbridge and RME fireface 400.. ( i will use 3x modified ADA8000 ), one extra pci express just in case I change for a RME raydat, a SATA port for an external Hard drive. the rest I don't know really..

I thought of a Liyama or AOC 22" touch screen monitor for control cos it is cheap, and a Acer ICONIA 2x14" 10 fingers multitouch laptop networked or wireless for control and remote. it looks great but I like your opinions on that? the idea is to use the remote all the time. however what cheaper tablet could I use for remote only?
Thanks for your inputs..

http://myspace.com/martiaudio

[MikeDee]

Welcome, Marti! I'll let our resident experts address your SAC/SAW Qs. I'd just like to offer up the possibility of your saving some money and using your Mac to run SAC/SAW on Windows via Bootcamp. (I believe you'll need Win7 with Bootcamp v4x; else, XP should be fine with Bootcamp v3x.) You'll find a good number of threads on the Forum pertaining to this...Robert Randolph (among others, I'm sure) has done this quite successfully.

Best of luck to you...and enjoy the ride! :)

[Donnie Frank]

Hey Martin. Welcome to the world of SAC! I'll try to answer some of your questions.




Hello there,

I want to invest in a SAC and SAW software and set up my own system but I am new to that and to pc.. I have been a Mac and Protools user for years.. I want to change. Also my freelance work is FOH but I don't have the budget for a DiGiCo.. and NO Yamaha.. yet I'd like to develop business with my own digital console and recording too.. So SAC and SAW I guess seems great and what I have been looking for for a long time.



Yep...SAW and SAC are, by far, the most "bang for the buck" you're going to get in digital audio processing.





I have a sketch of a set up I am think of. I'd like to know what you think?



Nice sketch! Your model closely resembles my rig, sans the Fireface:

http://drummerdonnie.com/sound/SAC/Pictures/SAC_RACK/8U_SKB/Front_Sm.jpg







I need to know what PC to choose for the job.. should it be mono core with SAC and SAW software?



Multicore is fine as long as you disable hyperthreading and follow Bob's tweaks:

http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com/Tweaking_Windows.htm





Should it be XP, but I thought multitouch screen is only with Windows 7..



SAC has native support for the 3M multi-touch monitor. I believe it is supported in both flavors of Windows.






should it be a standard i7 4gigram, ...




Bob has specific chipset recommendations which (going from memory) is the E8500 Intel chipset/processor. I personally use (and love) the Intel DG965ot. They can be had on eBay for a song and will easily run a 24 channel rig with 6+ monitor mixes and plugins. I own a computer repair business (half-geek.net). It's been my experience that "tried and true" motherboards are more reliable than newer, "untested" ones. Once a motherboard makes it past the 3 year point, they pretty much last forever. 100% of the failed boards in my shop have been < 3 years old. Running Windows XP and all native plugins, I've had nary an issue on this system. It runs like a top.





All I think I know is that I need 2 different firewire for my lightbridge and RME fireface 400.. ( i will use 3x modified ADA8000 ), one extra pci express just in case I change for a RME raydat, a SATA port for an external Hard drive. the rest I don't know really..




Some of us have been installing an SSD as our main drive and a large SATA disk as our scratch/recording drive. I think you will find this type of setup pretty clean and efficient. You can always dump audio to an external drive at a later time via a USB port. You may find that you may not have any slots left over for an eSATA card. And with the upcoming USB 3.0, I think I would hold of on eSATA. But of course that's up to you.





I thought of a Liyama or AOC 22" touch screen monitor for control cos it is cheap,



I don't believe that that monitor is supported by SAC. Someone else on here will probably confirm, but I'm 90% sure on this.





and a Acer ICONIA 2x14" 10 fingers multitouch laptop networked or wireless for control and remote. it looks great but I like your opinions on that?



For remote mixing - on the recommendation of 905shmick - I purchased a legacy IBM Lenovo X41. It's the best $165.00 you'll spend on your SAC rig. I have been VERY pleased with this unit, which I purchased through an eBay vendor. If you wish, I'll dig up the vendor's name and pass that information on to you. I'm so happy with this unit that I'm thinking of purchasing a 2nd one.





the idea is to use the remote all the time. however what cheaper tablet could I use for remote only?



Though I have mixed some shows strictly remotely...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7fIwWOnL_E

...I honestly wouldn't want to be "stuck" mixing 24 channel shows with the X41, but it's perfect for smaller shows or once I have all the mixes "settled in" via the host system, I can then move over to the X41 and walk the room. It's an amazing way to mix.

Things I will add:

1) I don't see a solo cue amp in your rig. I'm unfamiliar with the Fireface, so maybe it has headphone outputs. I use an Sennheiser IEM system because it allows me to either plug directly into the transmitter, or if I'm feeling saucy and want to mix remotely, I strap on the receiver belt-pack, plug in my cans and still have my solo cue. Since I use a wireless headset mic for talkback, I can literally mix, cue, and communicate to the band from anywhere in the room. Pretty amazing....

3) After tons of research I chose a 3U computer case because the 2U's were too deep and required proprietary power supplies. By sheer coincidence, Bob uses the same exact case:

http://drummerdonnie.com/sound/SAC/Pictures/CPU_Upgrade/AlmostDone%21_Sm.jpg

It all fits nicely in my SKB 8U case.

I hope all this helps. Once again, welcome to the world of SAC!

[Digitalfirefly]

Hi there

There are not many UK SAC users but I am one

I am in West London if you want to see my system or have a chat just let me know.

Steve

[Brent Evans]

Welcome aboard, Marti.

Let me offer some suggestions. First, if you haven't read the FAQ thread at the top of the page, start there and come back here.

Current wisdom is that the E8X00 processors and E6000 processors work pretty well, as well as dual core i3 and i5. More than two cores isn't beneficial... get the fastest dual core machine you can afford, and put it on a good solid motherboard with 4 gigs of RAM and a nice fast big hard drive. Intel onboard video seems to do just fine, otherwise go with ATI. Avoid nVidia if you can, their products seem to cause higher-than-normal problem levels (not guaranteed problems, just more than others).

You mentioned both a FireFace and a Lightbridge. If you're going to use these, you can only use one at a time - SAC is limited to one ASIO driver. Some have had success with the Lightbridge, but the Fireface is more likely to be stable. Unfortunately it's only 16 channels (8 on board, and 8 ADAT). Reports in the past on the Lightbridge was that it's stable up to 24 channels, but 32 channels is flaky... especially if you're using a bunch of outputs (as a SAC rig will do).

If you're trying to start on a budget, I'd recommend picking up a used MOTU 424/2408mk2 setup off eBay.... these offer great bang for buck and expandability.

Which mods are you planning to do to the ADA8ks? Do you already have them, or will they be a purchase? If you're purchasing... give great consideration to the Art TubeOpto... they're not much more than the ADAs and they sound better and seem to have fewer problems.

Good luck, and we'll try to help as much as we can!

[martiaudio]

Hi there

There are not many UK SAC users but I am one

I am in West London if you want to see my system or have a chat just let me know.

Steve

Great, I'd like to meet you if possible. I am off to Spain on a job but will be back at the end of next week. I am based in Bracknell/Berkshire.. so around the corner from you.
I am investigating before any investment and I want to get it right. I'd like to see you rig if possible.
speak to you soon.. you can email if you want.

[martiaudio]

I've had problems with my old powerbook Mac laptop, Would you believe it.. I could not sort out emails and web access today..
Well thank you very much so far for your comments and helpful infos..
I would not use my mac with SAC cos I am short on ports with an imac or an old powerbook.. besides I am really not comfortable with virtual pc.

I am a little disappointed that my lightbridge isn't so good with 32i/o's. so I guess I need to sell some before I buy some.. and RayDat is quite pricey..

I will read all about PC choice.. in fact I realize I need to buy a PC where I can have it serviced/repaired.. I just had a lethal problem on a dell almost new Notebook, 4 month I had it.. I have no mate or contact to fix it.. I am GGGRRRR.
Plus with my Mac today.. I learn a lesson.. PCs/MAc ain't to take for granted ever.
and because I am used to use old mac before intel, NEVER NEVER any problem for so many year.. the prospect of crash/freeze or else make me seriously uncomfortable on a job with SAC so I want to get it right.
I'll go through your posts with great interest.
many thanks

[Donnie Frank]

I've had problems with my old powerbook Mac laptop, Would you believe it.. I could not sort out emails and web access today..
Well thank you very much so far for your comments and helpful infos..
I would not use my mac with SAC cos I am short on ports with an imac or an old powerbook.. besides I am really not comfortable with virtual pc.

I am a little disappointed that my lightbridge isn't so good with 32i/o's. so I guess I need to sell some before I buy some.. and RayDat is quite pricey..

I will read all about PC choice.. in fact I realize I need to buy a PC where I can have it serviced/repaired.. I just had a lethal problem on a dell almost new Notebook, 4 month I had it.. I have no mate or contact to fix it.. I am GGGRRRR.



This kind of goes what I said earlier and why I rarely purchase new computer gear. Once it has proven itself in the field for a couple years, odds are it will last a very long time. Here's a DG965ot on eBay for $55.00 US.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-DG965OT-Intel-G965-Express-Socket-775-mATX-Motherboard-/190593361007?pt=Motherboards&hash=item2c603fe46f

If you wait long enough, you can probably find one complete with processor and fan for not much more. I think I paid $65.00 US for mine and it runs like a champ. I suspect it will for many years to come.




Plus with my Mac today.. I learn a lesson.. PCs/MAc ain't to take for granted ever.
and because I am used to use old mac before intel, NEVER NEVER any problem for so many year.. the prospect of crash/freeze or else make me seriously uncomfortable on a job with SAC so I want to get it right.
I'll go through your posts with great interest.
many thanks

Any fast, single core processor =>3.0 GHz with a fast FSB of =>800MHz will handle 24+ channels very nicely. I really have to work at it to get my processor to run over 30%. Many on this forum purport purchasing new MoBo's. I'm in the minority with my views on using a 3-year-old MoBo as my main SAC system. However my results have been near perfect.

[ctownsend67]

Welcome, Marti! I'll let our resident experts address your SAC/SAW Qs. I'd just like to offer up the possibility of your saving some money and using your Mac to run SAC/SAW on Windows via Bootcamp. (I believe you'll need Win7 with Bootcamp v4x; else, XP should be fine with Bootcamp v3x.) You'll find a good number of threads on the Forum pertaining to this...Robert Randolph (among others, I'm sure) has done this quite successfully.

Best of luck to you...and enjoy the ride! :)
you dont need bootcamp to control sac with your mac i use remote desktop control(free download from microsoft) and use my macbook pro to control sac remotely and it works great. forgive me its early 5:30 am and i miss read this but you can use a mac as a remote with remote desktop control.

[Brent Evans]

you dont need bootcamp to control sac with your mac i use remote desktop control(free download from microsoft) and use my macbook pro to control sac remotely and it works great.

The only problem with this is that only one person can use it at a time. Using the built in remote capabilites, multiple users can connect simultaneously.

[martiaudio]

I was not going to go with a Mac but since I have only an old powerbook which starts causing me problems, and an imac with os10.5, a little limited for recording music..
I am looking at buying a Macbook Pro 13" 2.7Ghz 8GRam.. But can I really run SAC with it and with what mean of virtual PC? I guess xp pro would be fine for it?
According to my rough sketch and that idea of set up, what remote tablets pc can I use and what touch monitor compatible with mac on virtual pc would be usable with SAC?
I really like that set up if it is possible cos I than have a mac and I can run SAC in a very mini set up when sufficient. for sound card I don't know yet but it has to be external: My RME fireface 400 for the time being but I like the RME Fireface ufx ultimately with that specific set up.
I'd really like some comments and some comments from Bob on this.

Extending the subject, although it is a different topics,
if there is any way to convert a studio manager file from Yamaha to a SAC routing one.. is it something that would be on the pipeline to develop??
it would be really cool to get
CONVERSION OF FILES FROM OTHER POPULAR DIGITAL MIXERS IN ORDER TO PROMOTE THE SAC INTO A VERY BIG STREAM?
it doesn't have to be complete with processing .. but just the routing would be so good in an ideal world.haha

[905shmick]

I am looking at buying a Macbook Pro 13" 2.7Ghz 8GRam.. But can I really run SAC with it and with what mean of virtual PC?

Nope, this will be a disaster in terms of latency and slipped buffers. I've run SAC Remote under VirtualBox on my macbook pro, but for the main SAC host, you need a full, dedicated OS on either PC or running under Bootcamp on the macbook.

[martiaudio]

Nope, this will be a disaster in terms of latency and slipped buffers. I've run SAC Remote under VirtualBox on my macbook pro, but for the main SAC host, you need a full, dedicated OS on either PC or running under Bootcamp on the macbook.

whether I didn't express myself correctly or else: I said any mean of virtual pc so that includes bootcamp, "Virtual PC", Fusion or Parrallel?
Which one would be the best?

I understand that the remote is something else.

What I really meant is : Can I run SAC with a macbook pro as the main SAC host completely stable with one of the software named earlier?

than what touch monitor can I hook up to that Mac to operate SAC?
And What remote pc could I consider with this system?
Could I even consider an ipad?

I can remote my current imac with iteleport and my ipod for example but it is a little useless and it is to remote the screen I am currently using which is not what I am after with SAC. I just want to use the facility of simultaneous operation remotely.

[905shmick]

whether I didn't express myself correctly or else: I said any mean of virtual pc so that includes bootcamp, "Virtual PC", Fusion or Parrallel?
Which one would be the best?



bootcamp would be your only reasonable option for a successful SAC rig. The difference between bootcamp and the others you have listed is that bootcamp really isn't a virtual PC, it allows you do dual-boot your mac into Windows or OSX. When it's booted into Windows, you have direct access to the hardware that is required for SAC to work properly.

VirtualBox, Fusion and Parallels are all what is known as a Type 2 hypervisor that allow you to run guest operating systems on top of an existing operating system and will abstract the hardware layer for the guest OS. This added layer of hardware abstraction will not allow you to run SAC in an low latency manner that is required for live sound.

[JeremyJo]

I have run SAC in boot camp on my MacBook pro. It works with bob's tweaks and a few more.

I'd love to see a iPad SAC remote app and I gather a few other people would as well, but attention seems to be on 31 band graphic eq plugins.

Mac hardware is generally good. The FireWire interface uses a full size plug so it is more durable than the 4-pin plug on many non Mac computers.

JJ

[martiaudio]

bootcamp would be your only reasonable option for a successful SAC rig. The difference between bootcamp and the others you have listed is that bootcamp really isn't a virtual PC, it allows you do dual-boot your mac into Windows or OSX. When it's booted into Windows, you have direct access to the hardware that is required for SAC to work properly.

VirtualBox, Fusion and Parallels are all what is known as a Type 2 hypervisor that allow you to run guest operating systems on top of an existing operating system and will abstract the hardware layer for the guest OS. This added layer of hardware abstraction will not allow you to run SAC in an low latency manner that is required for live sound.

thank you: very comprehensive explanation indeed.

[martiaudio]

I have run SAC in boot camp on my MacBook pro. It works with bob's tweaks and a few more.

what do you mean buy Bob's tweaks and few more??

[JeremyJo]

Bob has a document on the SAC website with needed tweaks for Windows XP and Windows 7. You definitely need to do those tweaks to windows.

I also found that I needed to turn off the wireless network interface to get SAC to perform without buffer slipping. That seemed to be a MacBook pro specific thing, at least on my macbook pro.

And I found that I needed to turn off the bootcamp drivers in windows 7.

Lastly I found I could not get FireWire to work in windows XP on my MacBook pro. I had to use windows 7.

After bobs tweaks and those listed above I had pretty stable performance I would trust a show with.

Jeremy

[martiaudio]

I'd love to see a iPad SAC remote app and I gather a few other people would as well, but attention seems to be on 31 band graphic eq plugins.
JJ

Yeah, ipad is well used now especially by pc users!!
I feared that there were no graphic on SAC, is it due?

Although graphic is always well over used and too often inaccurate.
the best would be a graphic inspired from an all inductive Klark Technik DN27.. this one is seriously sweet and does magic to the sound even if it is just to cut some mic feedback fz on a group.

[905shmick]

Yeah, ipad is well used now especially by pc users!!
I feared that there were no graphic on SAC, is it due?

Although graphic is always well over used and too often inaccurate.
the best would be a graphic inspired from an all inductive Klark Technik DN27.. this one is seriously sweet and does magic to the sound even if it is just to cut some mic feedback fz on a group.

You can load up multiple instances of the 7 band parametric plugin. Set the width to 0.3 and you've got your 1/3 octave steps.

[martiaudio]

You can load up multiple instances of the 7 band parametric plugin. Set the width to 0.3 and you've got your 1/3 octave steps.

I GUESS. it is nice to have a graphic EQ config at times.. but I guess it is more for press comference/ conferencing config as opposed to live music show!

[Donnie Frank]

You can load up multiple instances of the 7 band parametric plugin. Set the width to 0.3 and you've got your 1/3 octave steps.

Bingo...I thought of doing this a couple times and thought, "What's the point?" I can see where some situations could benefit from a 31 band, but honestly the RTA in conjunction with 7-band parametric seems like a better weapon against sonic anomalies. The 31-band allows one to quickly "guess" at the offending frequency (which I understand some guys are probably really good at but I am not). I generally use the RTA on the solo cue and then again on the TalkBack channel pre-fader for sonic investigation. I can mute the TalkBack channel, imitate the feedback frequency, watch it in the RTA and then dial it out on the 7 band (wide at first, then narrow down to .1 octave if I can get away with it). The TB allows me to find the frequency quickly for "emergency" sonic repairs, and the solo cue RTA allows me to find the offending channel (albeit, this can take time). Plus I'd be concerned about all the screen real-estate taken up with a 31 band. I couldn't imagine the width of 4 and a half of Bob's parametric E.Q.'s. Or I couldn't imagine the controls being any smaller.

Honestly, what I would rather see is the ability to tie a control surface into the 7 band parametric. That would be kind of kewl. The 8th fader could be "master." The encoders could be assigned "frequency" or "width" with the "solo" button as a modifier. That would be pretty kewl.

Thoughts?

[Donnie Frank]

Yeah, ipad is well used now especially by pc users!!
I feared that there were no graphic on SAC, is it due?

Although graphic is always well over used and too often inaccurate.
the best would be a graphic inspired from an all inductive Klark Technik DN27.. this one is seriously sweet and does magic to the sound even if it is just to cut some mic feedback fz on a group.

I'm not sure the fascination with the iPad. I use a $165.00, 10-year-old IBM Thinkpad X41 for remote mixing. It does everything the iPad does at 1/3 the cost. Plus, in an emergency, I can flip the screen over and it becomes a "real computer" with real keys, which means it can be used as a host if necessary. As a touch typer (about 60 wpm), I couldn't imagine owning a computer I couldn't type on. The iPad is kewl...I agree...but for SAC, the X41 is ideal. Trying to use SAC with my fat fingers on a touch pad would be an exercise in frustration. The stylus is the perfect solution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7fIwWOnL_E

Plus for the cost of an iPad, I can have 3 or 4 X41's. Here I am mixing on the X41 *while* playing drums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSMQ03UJrIA

I was mixing monitors AND FOH. I don't think I could do this with an iPad.

[905shmick]

I'm not sure the fascination with the iPad.

The ipad is a true multi-touch tablet. It's also has 75% of the market in terms of tablets.

You don't have to be an apple fan boy to appreciate how slick the iPad is compared to it's competitors.

[RandyHyde]

You can load up multiple instances of the 7 band parametric plugin. Set the width to 0.3 and you've got your 1/3 octave steps.

Yeah, but unless I'm missing something you don't get to see them all on the screen at once (you have to switch between the PEQs, IIRC). The whole purpose of a GEQ is not that you can adjust levels on 1/3-octave peaks, but that you can easily see all 31 settings in a quick glance. Except for the view, PEQs are clearly superior to GEQs, but the "quick glance" feature is a very powerful reason for the existence of GEQs, especially on output channels.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
P.S. Besides, you can't get a very good "smiley face" with a PEQ :)

[RBIngraham]

No one is ever going to bother writing a conversion utility to take files from other digital desks and create SAC files for you.

First, the conversion would have to make way too many assumptions for you that would probably be wrong at least 50% of the time if not all the time.

Second, there are so many different models that it would be a very daunting task to interpret what someone was trying to do on a LS9 vs a PM5d and then convert that to something that makes sense in a SAC system.

Lastly I doubt anyone that made such a product would ever see a return on the huge amount of time it would take to create. You would have to spend a ton of time reverse engineering someone's files unless you got them to cooperate with you. (good luck on that one... they want you to buy their consoles, not use their files to transfer to a competitor...)

Basically just do it by hand. If you really don't want to do it, I suspect you could hire someone to do the work for you. :)

Heck, even Yamaha themselves has only recently brought out tools to convert from one of their own consoles to other products they make, after years of customers grumbling. So if it took them that long to do it for their own products it will likely be a LONG time, if ever before they would be willing to help convert to and from other's products.

Don't hold your breath waiting for something like that to happen. :p

[Donnie Frank]

The ipad is a true multi-touch tablet. It's also has 75% of the market in terms of tablets.

You don't have to be an apple fan boy to appreciate how slick the iPad is compared to it's competitors.

Sure...but in the SAC environment???? I can't even get ONE finger on that tiny screen let alone multiple fingers. Remember, I purchased the X41 on your recommendation. And it's one of the best investments I've made so far. Conversely, I don't see you mixing on an iPad. So, though the iPad is a cool piece of technology, I don't think it would work so well in the SAC environment. I can assume that, because you use an X41 and not an iPad for your SAC rig, you agree.

[Donnie Frank]

Yeah, but unless I'm missing something you don't get to see them all on the screen at once (you have to switch between the PEQs, IIRC).



I just tried it. You are correct. I assigned one "post" and the other "pre" on the same channel and you only get to see one at a time.





The whole purpose of a GEQ is not that you can adjust levels on 1/3-octave peaks, but that you can easily see all 31 settings in a quick glance. Except for the view, PEQs are clearly superior to GEQs, but the "quick glance" feature is a very powerful reason for the existence of GEQs, especially on output channels.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde



Good point. But I honestly never use more than 3 or 4 bands at any given time. For that reason, the PEQ, with 7 bands, gives me that picture.




P.S. Besides, you can't get a very good "smiley face" with a PEQ :)

Good point!....<:^)

[sjpaul]

Anwida do a nice VST 31 band graphic EQ. Bob has recently said in another thread that he'd consider developing a remoteable one as a native plug in.

[905shmick]

Sure...but in the SAC environment???? I can't even get ONE finger on that tiny screen let alone multiple fingers. Remember, I purchased the X41 on your recommendation. And it's one of the best investments I've made so far. Conversely, I don't see you mixing on an iPad. So, though the iPad is a cool piece of technology, I don't think it would work so well in the SAC environment. I can assume that, because you use an X41 and not an iPad for your SAC rig, you agree.

An ipad app for SAC would require a new multi-touch based GUI, one that would allow for multiple views and different control. Porting SAC Remote so that it looked the same on IOS would be a waste of time.

Have a look at this video and tell me you can't mix on an ipad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqv8NqPieCA

Also, I'm not the one who recommended you getting an X41, it was Peter and Christian from this thread:

http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13852

[Donnie Frank]

An ipad app for SAC would require a new multi-touch based GUI, one that would allow for multiple views and different control. Porting SAC Remote so that it looked the same on IOS would be a waste of time.



Yeah...the SAC GUI would have to go through a bit of an overhaul to work on the iPad.





Have a look at this video and tell me you can't mix on an ipad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqv8NqPieCA



Yep...a definite GUI revision would be required. Playing Devil's advocate, this guy is only mixing 8 channels at a time. I'm not sure if the iPad app has the option to view more than 8 channels at a time...

On my X41 I can easily view 20 channels in the F-mixer, which leaves room for a single strip of the Z-mixer and the F-Key pallete. I'm not disagreeing with you that it's possible to mix using the Yamaha App. And I agree with you that it's pretty kewl. I'm just saying, for me, at this time I find using the stylus both convenient and powerful. I don't really see the iPad app as a huge leap or bound over using SAC and stylus on the X41. Factor in the cost of the iPad vs. the cost of the X41 (which is a factor for me), and the X41 wins hands down. I guess the reason I say this is because the recurring theme of asking Bob for an iPad app (not by you necessarily, but by a select few in the SAC community) is starting to feel redundant. Sure...an iPad app would be nice for those who want it. But when one considers how much work Bob would have to put into such an endeavor, I'd rather have him spend his time on more important things like perhaps a "Master Console" for viewing all console master faders, which is something I believe 90% of SAC users would like to see.




Also, I'm not the one who recommended you getting an X41, it was Peter and Christian from this thread:

http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13852

Touche'....damn failing memory. Thanx for the jog...<:^)

[905shmick]

Yep...a definite GUI revision would be required. Playing Devil's advocate, this guy is only mixing 8 channels at a time. I'm not sure if the iPad app has the option to view more than 8 channels at a time...


8 full size faders is about all you're going to be able to properly use on the ipad screen at any time. If you arranged your channel layout, 8 at a time would probably be more than enough. It's really no different than having a single BCF2000 or MotorMix hooked up, which is probably what most people have anyways.

I don't want to continue to re-hash the talks about a SAC API, but in reality, if there was an API that had SACRemote hooks, it would allow 3rd party developers to create the ipad / android / custom SAC UI.

[solarex]

Definitely a sac client API will be huge jump.

[martiaudio]

Bingo...I thought of doing this a couple times and thought, "What's the point?" I can see where some situations could benefit from a 31 band, but honestly the RTA in conjunction with 7-band parametric seems like a better weapon against sonic anomalies. The 31-band allows one to quickly "guess" at the offending frequency (which I understand some guys are probably really good at but I am not). I generally use the RTA on the solo cue and then again on the TalkBack channel pre-fader for sonic investigation. I can mute the TalkBack channel, imitate the feedback frequency, watch it in the RTA and then dial it out on the 7 band (wide at first, then narrow down to .1 octave if I can get away with it). The TB allows me to find the frequency quickly for "emergency" sonic repairs, and the solo cue RTA allows me to find the offending channel (albeit, this can take time). Plus I'd be concerned about all the screen real-estate taken up with a 31 band. I couldn't imagine the width of 4 and a half of Bob's parametric E.Q.'s. Or I couldn't imagine the controls being any smaller.

Honestly, what I would rather see is the ability to tie a control surface into the 7 band parametric. That would be kind of kewl. The 8th fader could be "master." The encoders could be assigned "frequency" or "width" with the "solo" button as a modifier. That would be pretty kewl.

Thoughts?

agreed.

[RandyHyde]

8 full size faders is about all you're going to be able to properly use on the ipad screen at any time. If you arranged your channel layout, 8 at a time would probably be more than enough. It's really no different than having a single BCF2000 or MotorMix hooked up, which is probably what most people have anyways.

Well, there is a difference between a "SAC Remote Port" and an iPad SAC application. A well-designed iPad application (that lets you quick scroll sideways with a flick of a finger) would be quite useful. Also, "pinch to zoom" (and shrink) would be a great feature for SAC on an iPad.

However, that would be a completely new application, not some sort of port of the SAC Remote application.



I don't want to continue to re-hash the talks about a SAC API, but in reality, if there was an API that had SACRemote hooks, it would allow 3rd party developers to create the ipad / android / custom SAC UI.
+1.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[martiaudio]

Welcome aboard, Marti.
Which mods are you planning to do to the ADA8ks? Do you already have them, or will they be a purchase? If you're purchasing... give great consideration to the Art TubeOpto... they're not much more than the ADAs and they sound better and seem to have fewer problems.

Good luck, and we'll try to help as much as we can!

Hello Brent and thank you for all your advice..
I can't decide which way I will go..
I have an old powerbook mac that I love but useless for anything major these days.. yet BEst machine I've ever Had by far PRE INTEL!!
I have an Imac 2.4Ghz dual Intel that I want to sell, and Fireface 400, M-audio lightbridge, again possibly all for sale!!
So I really want to get a new mac, like MacbookPro 13, but there are problems with multitouch screen extention ( apple did not get rights.. it is MS, grrr ),
besides, having a laptop mac and pc for SAC isn't a great idea even if it works. Plus I am limited: one firewire and a stupid sd useless extension...
So,
I guess it will have to be diy pc, my first?!?!?,
2x hdsp9652 second hand only because RayDaT is too expensive,
6xADA8000 to get 48 i/o's
1xbcf2000 8 faders control,
1xtouch screen I don't know which one is worth having... 3M is to expensive for me.
and a x41 tablet for remote I guess.
with that I hope to have enough instant control anyhow.
plus SAC
plus SAW eventually... well it becomes pricey and so little to offset with sales!
but that makes a nice set up to compete with an M7cl.

If I stick with only 30 i/os,
I do really like the idea of a MacBook pro, 2 ADA8000 and a RME Fireface UFX.. that really looks great and instant record..Man..

the ADA8000 mods are obvious but it does not make it great on paper. Although if you look at Black Lion Audio and their modifications description, it appear that they don't touch the converters. So it a classic case of changing coupling capacitors, quad chips to quality dual, and power supply capacitors all High grade.. it seems to make it all worth it, so much so that the unit can be compared to appogees sonically.. Not Bad!, I would consider that before anything else myself since I do tweak a lot and I make my own preamps too.
http://www.myspace.com/martiaudio
cheers

[martiaudio]

I am bouncing from one simple classic SAC rig to the macbook one. I can't decide.. Help..
I guess I've had so much agro over the years with PC.. I just can't trust them.. But my idea of mac is pre Intel... NEVER CRACH EVER..
( I've had 2 smal issues with my old powerbook because it losts its operating system..well it takes 10 mins to fix that.. and a foreign powerpoint only stored in for some delegates in a conference.. as soon as I bined it.. the Mac was fine again... ) ( by contrast my 3 month old Dell notebook has lost its operating system and everywhere I read: the HD or the mother board had it!!! great GGGRRRR...

Realistically a Macbook pro running a SAC is a GLORIFIED PC!!..
I think what I am trying to say is that I'd feel more comfortable with a SAC system on MAC..NOT WINDOWS!

[martiaudio]

Still,
Pricey but worth the idea..
My first rig requirement for future business was 48i/os.
But also smallest rig as possible.. so 3U pc with loud van.. not great..

I've looked at the RME fireface UFX and it provides i/os and fx itself. so that is not bad at all. in fact one could run a gig only with that if it is simple!! plus direct record/playback..yet without SAC..

30i/o's, with 16 inputs only 4 mic level and 12 line level, plus 16 mic level with 2xADA8000 modified.

however if I add 2x Studio projects SP828, I can get pristine enough mic level preamps direct out or pre mix.
SO,
I get 44i with 20 mics in, 8 lines in and 2+2 pre-mix with 8+8 mics in ( 2x sp828 stereo mix)
or 38i with 28 mic in (using 1x sp828 dir out), 2 lines in and 2 pre-mix with 8 mic in ( 1xsp828 stereo mix) .
or a lot more combinations somewhere in between.

Using a MacBook Pro, Magic mouse, external monitor perhaps touch screen, one BCF2000, and one IBM x41 for remote..

I'd really like your conclusions over my last sketches with the 2 differents SAC rig that I have in mind?

[RBIngraham]

I am bouncing from one simple classic SAC rig to the macbook one. I can't decide.. Help..
I guess I've had so much agro over the years with PC.. I just can't trust them.. But my idea of mac is pre Intel... NEVER CRACH EVER..
( I've had 2 smal issues with my old powerbook because it losts its operating system..well it takes 10 mins to fix that.. and a foreign powerpoint only stored in for some delegates in a conference.. as soon as I bined it.. the Mac was fine again... ) ( by contrast my 3 month old Dell notebook has lost its operating system and everywhere I read: the HD or the mother board had it!!! great GGGRRRR...

Realistically a Macbook pro running a SAC is a GLORIFIED PC!!..
I think what I am trying to say is that I'd feel more comfortable with a SAC system on MAC..NOT WINDOWS!

No Kidding, a Mac today is just a PC with a different OS in it, on over priced hardware that is less reliable, but with a more reliable OS. :)

Seriously, there is nothing like SAC on the Mac OS, unless you want to use Mainstage in Logic to mix a show. :rolleyes:

I seriously doubt Bob will ever write for the Mac OS. You never know of course, but I would fall out of my chair when I saw that announcement. :D

[RBIngraham]

Hello Brent and thank you for all your advice..
I can't decide which way I will go..
I have an old powerbook mac that I love but useless for anything major these days.. yet BEst machine I've ever Had by far PRE INTEL!!
I have an Imac 2.4Ghz dual Intel that I want to sell, and Fireface 400, M-audio lightbridge, again possibly all for sale!!
So I really want to get a new mac, like MacbookPro 13, but there are problems with multitouch screen extention ( apple did not get rights.. it is MS, grrr ),
besides, having a laptop mac and pc for SAC isn't a great idea even if it works. Plus I am limited: one firewire and a stupid sd useless extension...
So,
I guess it will have to be diy pc, my first?!?!?,
2x hdsp9652 second hand only because RayDaT is too expensive,
6xADA8000 to get 48 i/o's
1xbcf2000 8 faders control,
1xtouch screen I don't know which one is worth having... 3M is to expensive for me.
and a x41 tablet for remote I guess.
with that I hope to have enough instant control anyhow.
plus SAC
plus SAW eventually... well it becomes pricey and so little to offset with sales!
but that makes a nice set up to compete with an M7cl.

If I stick with only 30 i/os,
I do really like the idea of a MacBook pro, 2 ADA8000 and a RME Fireface UFX.. that really looks great and instant record..Man..

the ADA8000 mods are obvious but it does not make it great on paper. Although if you look at Black Lion Audio and their modifications description, it appear that they don't touch the converters. So it a classic case of changing coupling capacitors, quad chips to quality dual, and power supply capacitors all High grade.. it seems to make it all worth it, so much so that the unit can be compared to appogees sonically.. Not Bad!, I would consider that before anything else myself since I do tweak a lot and I make my own preamps too.
http://www.myspace.com/martiaudio
cheers


If you're not all the comfortable about assembling your own Win PC, then I might suggest you just buy one from someone that does that for you. If I was in the UK, I would call Gary Giles at Cue One Sound, he has built custom PC units for many theatres in the UK to run SFX and other audio applications. It might cost a bit more, but it sounds like you're not too sure of your way around the Win OS, and so trying to over come that hurdle while also learning the SAC UI doesn't sound like a great idea in my book.

Rather than buying a bunch of junk Behringer, why not just spend a bit more and get something that doesn't have crap for a power supply. :) Or do what I did, get some Behringers, live with the little issues, while saving your pennies for something better and then you can always dump the ADA8000s on eBay. In fact since I bought almost all of my ADA8000s used and then resold them, I think I made a couple of bucks on them. :)

But I guess if you have time to kill, then making mods is a good deal.

If RME is too pricey, think about going with a used MOTU 424 based system and some older 2408 I/O boxes. You can get a pretty high channel count for a lot less money than you can with RME, because there is a fairly strong used market for this gear. And again, if you feel you want to sell later, you probably will loose very little money.

[RBIngraham]

Still,
Pricey but worth the idea..
My first rig requirement for future business was 48i/os.
But also smallest rig as possible.. so 3U pc with loud van.. not great..

I've looked at the RME fireface UFX and it provides i/os and fx itself. so that is not bad at all. in fact one could run a gig only with that if it is simple!! plus direct record/playback..yet without SAC..

30i/o's, with 16 inputs only 4 mic level and 12 line level, plus 16 mic level with 2xADA8000 modified.

however if I add 2x Studio projects SP828, I can get pristine enough mic level preamps direct out or pre mix.
SO,
I get 44i with 20 mics in, 8 lines in and 2+2 pre-mix with 8+8 mics in ( 2x sp828 stereo mix)
or 38i with 28 mic in (using 1x sp828 dir out), 2 lines in and 2 pre-mix with 8 mic in ( 1xsp828 stereo mix) .
or a lot more combinations somewhere in between.

Using a MacBook Pro, Magic mouse, external monitor perhaps touch screen, one BCF2000, and one IBM x41 for remote..

I'd really like your conclusions over my last sketches with the 2 different SAC rig that I have in mind?


I hate touch screens, so I think spending money on the 3M is... well.. a waste of money. But that's just me. Even with the tools Bob put in place I just don't think SAC is a great touch screen application, so I would never bother. But that's just me.

If you go with a Fireface UFX, you could just hook it up via USB as well and then you could plug it into a Mac or a PC, which may not have Firewire ports.

I'm not sure I understand your statement in the other post about not hooking up a Mac and PC, I network mine together all the time and have no issues. You just have to know how to do it. :D

In fact when the Mac is bootcamped and running the Win OS, it's just like any other PC, very simple to network it together with a PC.

Keep in mind that I'm not sure if you would have access to those built in effects in the UFX while running SAC. You may, I don't know... it depends on how RME set up the internal routing. I have not seen or used one of the UFX, so my concern might be a moot point. But I would want to check that out, before I made a purchasing decision based on that notion.

[Donnie Frank]

I hate touch screens, so I think spending money on the 3M is... well.. a waste of money.



+1. I have made good use of my Touchpad for doing monitors with a stylus and remotely doing FOH once all the fires are put out, or mixing remotely small shows 8 channels or less. But honestly, if I'm going to invest in more hardware, the MotorMix control surfaces seems like a good investment for now. I've been mixing shows with 8 channels since I purchased SAC. I now have 16, but haven't done a show yet. We'll see if I make use of the 16 channels or feel like it is overkill. I'm thinking the former.

If you watch any of the Tesla/SAC videos, Steve spends the entire time with his face in the touchscreen. With faders, you can look at the stage, which is what I need to do.

[Donnie Frank]

@martiaudio

Me and my GF have become fans of your art work....<;^)

Your drawings show both Touchscreens AND control surfaces. I think you will find that, once you have things settled down in the mix and monitors, the control surface lets you sit back, relax and mix. I think you would find the touchscreen vexing to use...Just my humble opinion. I hate to see you waste your money on something you won't like or need. As I stated, having a remote touchpad for monitors (via a stylus) is the s***. As far as I can see, there is no better way of connecting with the artist then to stand right next to him/her, hear what they're hearing and being able to adjust accordingly in real time. This takes the word "service" to a whole new level and makes monitors a real pleasure to do.

[martiaudio]

@martiaudio

Me and my GF have become fans of your art work....<;^)

Your drawings show both Touchscreens AND control surfaces. I think you will find that, once you have things settled down in the mix and monitors, the control surface lets you sit back, relax and mix. I think you would find the touchscreen vexing to use...Just my humble opinion. I hate to see you waste your money on something you won't like or need. As I stated, having a remote touchpad for monitors (via a stylus) is the s***. As far as I can see, there is no better way of connecting with the artist then to stand right next to him/her, hear what they're hearing and being able to adjust accordingly in real time. This takes the word "service" to a whole new level and makes monitors a real pleasure to do.


thanks for your comments..
Well I am sold with the idea of a cheap second hand x41 tablet.. in fact I just bought one for urgent pc/office/turningpoint work..
Still with the SAC project, I feel like I really start backwards with this buy!!haha

About touch screen and fader control: I've seen a system yesterday with 2 touch screens and 2 bcf2000 modified, all aligned with the vertical screens. He made a hardware digital console basically and it works like a charm. I am completely sold with the idea. SAC when it is integrated like that.. it is serious stuff to compete with any digital console on the market today.

But for me, I am freelance with no real prospect of getting a yard to store equipment. every storage I have is full of finished or unfinished vintage audio projects.
So well inspired, I will try to think of a system built in 3 portable parts... Rack with pc/SAC/io's
Networked remote with faders/touchscreen/mouse/keyboard and cheap pc laptop with broken screen to run it!
X41 for wireless remote.
so I have everything pretty much covered that way.

now that I've seen a hardware made with SAC.. I can see the intuitive and easy operation. but it has to be interfaced with at least one touch screen and faders alined to my views.

[Donnie Frank]

thanks for your comments..
Well I am sold with the idea of a cheap second hand x41 tablet.. in fact I just bought one for urgent pc/office/turningpoint work..
Still with the SAC project, I feel like I really start backwards with this buy!!haha

About touch screen and fader control: I've seen a system yesterday with 2 touch screens and 2 bcf2000 modified, all aligned with the vertical screens. He made a hardware digital console basically and it works like a charm. I am completely sold with the idea. SAC when it is integrated like that.. it is serious stuff to compete with any digital console on the market today.

But for me, I am freelance with no real prospect of getting a yard to store equipment. every storage I have is full of finished or unfinished vintage audio projects.
So well inspired, I will try to think of a system built in 3 portable parts... Rack with pc/SAC/io's
Networked remote with faders/touchscreen/mouse/keyboard and cheap pc laptop with broken screen to run it!
X41 for wireless remote.
so I have everything pretty much covered that way.

now that I've seen a hardware made with SAC.. I can see the intuitive and easy operation. but it has to be interfaced with at least one touch screen and faders alined to my views.

My system is basically 2 monitors and (now) 2 MotorMixes. My remote dons an old Dell 700m and a BCF2000 and my other remote is the X41 Touchpad. I think you will find that anything you want to do on the screen may be tough or near impossible to do with touchscreens...like adjusting E.Q., for instance. Or setting up Dynamics. Using the touchscreens for faders when you have hardware faders is redundant. But if you get the touchscreens, please report your experiences. Maybe I'm missing something and you can shed some light.

Good luck with your system. It sounds like a great SAC rig in the making!