I'm Mixing from stage... and...

[Russell Landwehr]

I mix from stage... we're too cheap to hire a SE.

My best friend is compressors. A little light compression (1.5:1 or 2:1) on submixes is my replacement for riding gain since I can't hear the FOH and I've got both hands on my Korg.

What I want to know is... is there a better way than the way I am doing it?

In order to keep the mix in check, I've got the following submixes in the following manner.

Toms submixed by using Aux Send/RCV channel with a VST compressor pre-fader sent to the same "O"channel (9) (that also has light VST compression) as the rest of the drums (so I don't have to work so hard evening out the toms when the drummer places the mics in the wrong position.)

Guitar and Keyboards sent to an "O" channel (10) with a VST compressor there (so that leads have a "ducking" effect on the other instrument.)

VOX incl reverb from Aux channel sent to an "O" channel (11) with a VST compressor there (so the VOX are at a consistant level even when we are all singing at once. another ducking effect here too)

Bass Guitar sent to an "O" channel (12) with a VST compressor there (so it doesn't feel left out) (suppose I could eliminate this one and just tap the Bass player's monitor pre-insert and then use SAC's compressor on the channel)

I guess my biggest concern is the way I'm handling the TOMS. It's a submix feeding a submix. But I'm using a aux/snd/rcv channel (virtually) to do this... is there another way? It would be nice to be able to use a SAC compressor on a submix.

Russell

[Brent Evans]

You need to invest in Levelizer. It has the same compressor/gate algorithm as SAC, and includes two key busses which allow you to key one or more instances off one or more other instances. I use it to manage my recording mixes, and it should help your situation also.

[mojogil]

I've never, and I mean never, thought that a band that mixes itself from stage sounded great. Once in a while it sounds ok, most of the time absolutely horrible.
Sorry, major pet peeve... carry on:)

[Bob L]

Why not just assign the input chans directly to the sub buses... without the need for the auxes... then you can patch my Levelizer or your favorite vst compressor on the out chan directly before it subs back into the main out 1 chan.

Bob L

[Craig Allen]

I do the same type of thing, except I have a wireless bass rig, so I can walk (with a remote from time to time). I agree with Bob - just send the drums to an output channel and then patch the Levelizer (or other compressor). And get a keytar so you can walk around and hear it a little. :D

[Russell Landwehr]

My biggest concern is trying to get a "Toms" submix to then feed a "Drums" submix which then goes to my output chan 1. (or even better "toms" sub to "drums" sub to "instruments" to output 1 so that if my ESP tells me the VOX aren't cutting through the mix, all I gotta do is pull the Instrument fader back without screwing up the mix too much.

It would be nice to have 3 levels of submix. Is it possible to Assign Output Groups to a Group Fader?

And Ya, mixing from stage is definately a step below having someone run FOH for us The only guy in our area that we would trust with our sound would cost as much as the band makes. The ROI is pretty low in that case.
However, most bands do NOT have the same routing/gates/compressors/submixes that we do since I am using SAC. Show me a band mixing from stage NOT in-the-box that has a gate on every channel, a rack full of compressors, 5 submixes, 2 stereo monitor mixes with complete channel EQ and FX, 2 mono monitor mixes with complete channel EQ... etc.... etc.... AND can give a visiting FOH engineer a netbook to tweak EQ's and Levels and Gates and Compressors. (Thanks Bob L.)

Oh, and the DSP's Levelizer, Reverb, and FreQAnalyzer are on my Christmas list since the SAW I was eyeing just became HALF PRICE!

Russell

[RandyHyde]

I mix from stage... we're too cheap to hire a SE.

....


What I want to know is... is there a better way than the way I am doing it?

Well, besides hiring a SE?
I'd get a couple of monitor speakers on either side of your keyboard and feed FOH into them.




I guess my biggest concern is the way I'm handling the TOMS. It's a submix feeding a submix. But I'm using a aux/snd/rcv channel (virtually) to do this... is there another way? It would be nice to be able to use a SAC compressor on a submix.

Russell
As others said: Studio Levelizer.
Someday, Bob has promised us matrix control which might alleviate the "I need more levels of submixes" issue. We'll see if it really works out that way, but yes, wanting to be able to feed the output of any channel strip as the input into any of the other channel strips is a common request.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Paul Henry]

How about this.

1/ Run a couple soundcheck songs with a click and a ballpark FOH mix, get the stage mix right.
2/ Crazy glue the guitarist's volume knob where it's set, and make sure the drummer drinks his RedBull before sound check so that the levels on stage will closely resemble the levels during the adrenalin fueled babe fest of the actual show.
3/ Record your keyboard parts and the click in Reaper or SAW or whatever you have.
4/ Send the click to whoever needs it, and play back your recorded keyboard track with the same monitor settings and levels as your live playing.
5/ Take a remote and walk out front. Let the recorded keys be you on stage and let the rest of the band play along with your recorded keys and the click to keep them in time with the recording.
6/ Set up the most awesome mix of all time and store it.
7/ Proceed to have the best gig ever and to get mobbed by babes.

[Bob L]

If you really feel the need for a sub of toms into a sub of drums... I would suggest assigning all drums to an out group... put your compressor on that out group... then latch the toms together so you can adjust all toms as if they were subbed by simply grabbing any one of the tom faders.

Or... if you really want another sub master fader for the toms, use the next out chan as a grp latch and latch the toms to it... now you have two separate sub master faders for the toms and drums... all coming out a single drum subgroup with a group compressor.

Bob L

[beau]

You could also utilize the VCA function. Assign to a subgroup, process to taste. Control groups of channels with vca fader.

Even with all of the latching and groups, I still like a band vca to bring the band down around a quiet singer.

Many paths to the same destination with SAC.

[gdougherty]

Takes what, 5 seconds to check, 30 seconds to adjust drum mic's? Start there. Comp the toms on the channel with a moderate ratio 2-3:1 and the same threshold. That will get them in the same ballpark. Put the drums in two subgroups and squash the snot out of one then blend the two. Do that just because it rocks.

Already said, only way to go is to monitor FOH onstage. Keep the level sane so it doesn't interfere with the house mix as much. Control volume wherever possible. If you lose the ability to hear your monitor in a gig and the speaker didn't die, you or someone else is too loud, reign it in. Make sure your place in the blend stays appropriate. Go with IEM wherever possible. Wired IEM for stationary musicians is cheap. Add an audience mic for the iEM's.

Takes work and practice but your mixes will be better for it.

[Russell Landwehr]

Tons of awesome ideas from the Pros. Thanks guys. I knew I could count on you.

I've been lurking and searching this Forum for over a year now. It is a wealth of information not only on SAC but also on PC config and Mixing Tech.

Thanks again.

Russell

[beau]

I have been stuck in many side stage, backstage, or 200 feet back in the corner during a dinner set situations. Many times I find myself mixing off the meters. Over the years I have used this as a very effective tool when in less than optimum conditions.

[wascomat]

How about this.

1/ Run a couple soundcheck songs with a click and a ballpark FOH mix, get the stage mix right.
2/ Crazy glue the guitarist's volume knob where it's set, and make sure the drummer drinks his RedBull before sound check so that the levels on stage will closely resemble the levels during the adrenalin fueled babe fest of the actual show.
3/ Record your keyboard parts and the click in Reaper or SAW or whatever you have.
4/ Send the click to whoever needs it, and play back your recorded keyboard track with the same monitor settings and levels as your live playing.
5/ Take a remote and walk out front. Let the recorded keys be you on stage and let the rest of the band play along with your recorded keys and the click to keep them in time with the recording.
6/ Set up the most awesome mix of all time and store it.
7/ Proceed to have the best gig ever and to get mobbed by babes.

(more realistic for live shows):

1/ pretend to do soundcheck but play angry birds on your iphone while the band plays. the sound check won't matter when the band gets drunk and turns up the stage volume to painful levels anyways.
2/ kidnap the guitar player before the show. swear you don't know where he went. play pre-recorded tracks of a better guitar player while the drummer listens to a click track.
3/turn the drummer off of the fronts. play pre-recorded tracks of a better drummer. insist that the drummer is really playing the parts.
4/ send the click track to everyone but run it through a delay with different delay times set for each person. it won't matter. most of the parts are being played back from pre-recorded tracks. you will keep them busy trying to figure out where they are at in the songs.
5/ take a remote. tell everyone you are going out front to get the 'best mix'. when no one can see you - leave and go check out the really good band next door for the duration of the set. come back just before the set ends and tell everyone how great they are.
6/ set up the best pre-recorded show and sub ALL the tracks. don't put anyone in the fronts. it will sound much better and you will get absolutely NO FEEDBACK. mix up the set list so the band doesn't know what order the songs are in and have the tracks randomly start automatically.
7/ put on a long blonde wig and tell everyone you are David Coverdale from WhiteSnake. flirt with the waitresses but wind up going home alone. spend all night playing Space Invaders on your Atari 2600.

I'm sorry. couldn't resist having a little fun

[Donnie Frank]

Try mixing from *behind* the mains. Not perfect, but not bad. In case you can't see, I'm wearing IEM's and mixing that way. More kick than I would normally have and I'd probably add a bit more guitar, but the mix isn't horrible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sthmKmlQQ4

[T-Ray]

I was working with a band for awhile where I was the foh engineer and keyboard player. I just set up my key rig at foh and sequenced the more involved parts so I could devote more hands to the console. If I was too far from the mains (as far as time delay) I monitored through headphones. It's not the greatest situation in the world but it works. At least you can hear what's going on. You're not on stage but sometimes, this is a plus!

[grecoaudio]

Ahhh, reality check here,

Get a sound guy!!!!! U mean to tell me u cant get a half decent guy on craigslist to run your sound on a regular basis?

[wascomat]

Ahhh, reality check here,

Get a sound guy!!!!! U mean to tell me u cant get a half decent guy on craigslist to run your sound on a regular basis?

yeah the guy I contacted from craig's list was a great FOH engineer but he tried to kill me. he was the craig's list killer/engineer :rolleyes:

[Andreas]

A very nice way of keeping channel volumes equal without killing dynamics is setting SAC Comp to a long attack time (1s) and a longer release time (2s), Ratio 3, threshold should be set start to work on loudest parts of the instrument.

Best wishes
Andreas

[Russell Landwehr]

Try mixing from *behind* the mains. Not perfect, but not bad. In case you can't see, I'm wearing IEM's and mixing that way. More kick than I would normally have and I'd probably add a bit more guitar, but the mix isn't horrible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sthmKmlQQ4

Ya, I play Keyboards and mix from stage AND wear IEM's. That's why I make use of subgroups that are compressed. It helps even-out things I can't ride faders on. I subgroup the Toms, subgroup The whole Drumset including the subgrouped Toms, subgroup The Guitar/Keys, subgroup the VOX, I run light compression on the Bass and all subgroups, and then VERY light compression on the whole mix. All the band members are pretty good at self regulating and keeping backing vox out of the way of the lead. The guitar player and I are very good at dynamics from leads to rythums. So we kinda self-mix without me having to tweak much during the night.

The only acoutic stage bleed comes from the drums (the guitar amp is the Amplitube plugin and the bass is direct to the mixer so no amps on stage)
The drums and 'specially snare, however, creates a problem at gigs (like weddings and corporate parties) where we have to be low SPL's early then crank it later. I just run out front later to check the mix and crack the snare in the mains just a tiny bit. (snare overpowers the whole band, I've even tried switching polarity on some vox mics and OH's and such to try to null it out of the mic bleed. Drummer won't change snares, he's too proud of the overpriced monstrosity he uses so I usually don't even bring up the snare fader)

(incidentally, 10 channels of drums, well, 9 'cause the OH's are a stereo channel)

Also, I finally got around to setting the SOLO (in-place, pre-fader) to my IEM's. I'm looking forward to playing with that this weekend. WOW, one click and I can hear an input OR an output. Yeeeehaaaaa! I LOVE this SAC stuff!


I have been stuck in many side stage, backstage, or 200 feet back in the corner during a dinner set situations. Many times I find myself mixing off the meters. Over the years I have used this as a very effective tool when in less than optimum conditions.

Yes, meters are my very best friend from stage. I've got mine all tapped post-fader and it helps me keep an "eye" on things.


I was working with a band for awhile where I was the foh engineer and keyboard player. I just set up my key rig at foh and sequenced the more involved parts so I could devote more hands to the console. If I was too far from the mains (as far as time delay) I monitored through headphones. It's not the greatest situation in the world but it works. At least you can hear what's going on. You're not on stage but sometimes, this is a plus!

Hehe, I have way too much of an ego to do that. I MUST BE IN THE SPOTLIGHT!


Ahhh, reality check here,

Get a sound guy!!!!! U mean to tell me u cant get a half decent guy on craigslist to run your sound on a regular basis?

(deliberate use of dollar signs coming up)
It's really about the $$$. We don't want to split the $$$$ evenly with someone who doesn't bring his own PA. (plus I'm not about to let us go back to an anal-og desk) And with some of the gigs we play and the distance and overnight stays, there's no way we're gonna get a FOHE to do that for low $$.

I just bought the three plugins, Levelizer, Reverberator, FreqAnalyzer. Yesterday I switched from the VST and DX plugins I was using and went from 46% to 32% on the SAC engine. The Reverberator doesn't sound as sweet as I expected, but I suppose I'm still learning it. Time to RTFM.

Russell

[Bob L]

Be careful with SOLO In Place... that will interfere with the main mix output because it mutes everything that is not soloed.

That is for Studio Control Room use... not Live audio.

Bob L

[Donnie Frank]

Be careful with SOLO In Place... that will interfere with the main mix output because it mutes everything that is not soloed.

That is for Studio Control Room use... not Live audio.

Bob L

I was gonna say... I mix off the solo bus (obviously since I'm doing monitors, too). SAC is freakin' awesome to facilitate this. I couldn't imagine trying to do this on another console...speaking of which...

I did a gig last weekend at Route 66 Casino. The house engineer was singing the praises of the Yamaha 01v96(?), which just happens to be the house console at Buffalo Thunder casino, which is a casino I perform at regularly and had performed at the weekend prior. Bands refuse to use the Yamaha and generally bring their own console. We use the Yamaha because Chris, our lead singer, has somewhat of a working knowledge of the console. I have no freakin' idea how the thing works.

Since other bands don't use the Yamaha, I asked the venue manager if I could take the console home with the instruction manual and play with it for a while. To my surprise he agreed. But at load out I had forgotten to pack it, so Chris packed it for me in his truck and then gave it to me at the Route 66 gig. So it was funny that, as the house engineer was singing the praises of the 01v96, as we were walking out the back door to the loading area, there was an 01v96 laying there on the ground behind my SUV. I said, "Hey...lookie there! Speak of the Devil..." You should've seen his eyes. It was funny because HE brought it up. Funny...

I've had the Yamaha home for a couple days and finally set it up last night. So far I am NOT impressed with it. I find the user interface clumsy and the LCD display hard to work with. The console does other things that are weird (like cascade channel E.Q. changes throughout the Aux buses). At this point I'm going to give the Yamaha the benefit of the doubt that there's a way to change (fix) this. There's no hard "pre/post" button for it. And if there's a soft button, I haven't found it yet. It's not apparent. Pushing the "E.Q." button takes you right out of Aux X to the "Home" console...grrrrr. E.Q. changes to the FOH "Home" console cascade throughout the entire console...grrrrrr. VERY UNintuitive IMHO. We'll see. Maybe somebody reset something to make all the Aux buses post E.Q. (they're not post-fader, which is even more confusing). I found a menu that allows the user to change meter tap points, but nothing for changing the Aux bus tap points. We'll see....

The 01v96 is my first digital console. So I'm sure there are certain standards in place that most of you take for granted that I haven't used or seen yet. We'll see. I'm going to sit down with the 300 page manual today and see if I can't plow through it. All I can say is, at this point, I would HATE to be tossed into a mixing situation with this console. So far I hate it. I'm only learning it for my band and so I can get used to (what I hope is) digital console "standards" that maybe I can use in the future. Knowledge is power, yada, yada....

Anybody have any experience with this console who could short-cut me into setting the Aux buses to a true "post-gain" state? Thanx.

SAC rules.

[Russell Landwehr]

Be careful with SOLO In Place... that will interfere with the main mix output because it mutes everything that is not soloed.

That is for Studio Control Room use... not Live audio.

Bob L


Thanks, Bob. I just checked my SOLO setup and tested it. W/ and w/o "in-place."

So now I'm SOLOing not-in-place. (more like PFL?)

Boy that would have sucked Saturday night, eh.

Russell

[Donnie Frank]

Thanks, Bob. I just checked my SOLO setup and tested it. W/ and w/o "in-place."

So now I'm SOLOing not-in-place. (more like PFL?)

Boy that would have sucked Saturday night, eh.

Russell

Nice save!!