Writing automation changes outside of automation mode?

[Dave Labrecque]

Bob, is this supposed to be possible?

If I mark an area that happens to enclose fader automation, even though I'm not in automation mode, if I enter offset mode and move a fader (with the cursor inside the marked area, of course), then exit offset mode normally, the offset will be written to the hidden, marked fader entries.

I know there shouldn't be any reason for us to do this, but I'm thinking it oughta be trapped for (accidents to happen), unless there's a reason for it to behave this way.

Your thoughts?

[Bob L]

Yes... that is correct... offset works with or without automation... if you have automation entries on a track and later decide the track needs to come up 2 db overall... offset has to offset the automation entries as well... if you do not mark, then it happens across the entire timeline.

You are not writing new entries, simply offsetting (adjusting) the current entries.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

No, no, no... that all works great. I totally get that. I'm saying that a marked area of automation can be offset even while not in automation mode. I did not expect that.

[Bob L]

The marked area is responding to the Offset mode.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

The marked area is responding to the Offset mode.

Bob L

Yes -- while NOT in automation mode. Is that expected? :confused:

[Bob L]

Yes... otherwise there would be no way to perform the offset.

Offset works in or out of Automation mode... that is why it is something that should always be used with caution and deliberate action.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

OK, so long as you understand that sometimes it works that way and sometimes it doesn't. It depends on whether or not 'automation peek' mode is engaged. I'd understood automation mode to solely allow access to altering automation, rather than 'peek' mode allowing it. I'd thought the whole purpose of 'peek' mode was to keep automation safe from alteration, while allowing us to see it.

[Bob L]

The peek mode has nothing to do with it... automation manual writing is safe in that mode... the Offset works on all existing entries to perform the offset function whether you see them or not.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

The peek mode has nothing to do with it... automation manual writing is safe in that mode... the Offset works on all existing entries to perform the offset function whether you see them or not.

Bob L

OK, but realize I'm not talking about all existing entries for a track (offsetting the whole track), but rather entries within a marked area for a track. I'd thought marked area offset of entries was supposed to only be possible in automation mode, not in any mode. So, this is intended, then? This way, we can offset entries without awareness of which specific entries are being affected.

[Bob L]

Dave... the Offset is working the way its designed... you do not need to see anything to use it... if you mark an area and ask that everything in that area be offset... that is what will happen... and that includes adjusting automation entries within that area to make it happen.

It's really nothing to get all concerned about... it does what you are asking it to do if you use the function.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave... the Offset is working the way its designed... you do not need to see anything to use it... if you mark an area and ask that everything in that area be offset... that is what will happen... and that includes adjusting automation entries within that area to make it happen.

It's really nothing to get all concerned about... it does what you are asking it to do if you use the function.

Bob L

OK. I'd just always figured that changing existing automation relatively was limited to automation mode the same way writing automation is. I stand corrected. :)

[bcorkery]

I thought the same thing Dave. This is a good thing to know. Thanks for the enlightenment.

What a great place this is!

[UpTilDawn]

Guess I'll have to try some experiments tomorrow. I always thought the same thing, too.
Automation ON, marked area, offset adjustments within marked area...
Automation OFF, marked area...... offset..... potentially adjusts the entire track because automation is turned off.

[Dave Labrecque]

Automation OFF, marked area...... offset..... potentially adjusts the entire track because automation is turned off.

That's what I always thought, but no! :eek: Only the marked area gets offset -- even with automation mode turned off. Beware.

[Shawn]

With offset mode turned "on" I have always expected any mixer control manipulation to result in offsetting the manipulated mixer control to the "new" offset settings.

Entering offset mode with a marked area should result in any manipulated mixer contol being offset within the marked area, this is perfectly consistent with SAWStudio's basic operation.

That is what offset mode does, it is offsetting any manipulated mixer controls to the new offset that you are telling it to, and it will automatically offset any existing automation as per your instructions, offset mode is only doing exactly what it was designed to do.

If one does not wish to offset any mixer controls, then one should NOT have offset mode enabled when changing mixer control settings.

:)

[Ian Alexander]

I can't see why having automation on or off would tell SS to ignore a marked area.:confused:

It seems intuitive to me for offset to affect everything inside a marked area, no matter what view you're using. If I marked an area, entered offset mode, and adjusted a control, I'd be pretty disappointed if every adjustment of that control in the marked area wasn't offset. If SS offset the entire track, I'd be wondering why it ignored the marked area.

And now that I think of it, if you offset an entire track, all of the automation entries of that track are offset, right? Whether you are in Automation Mode or not. I am thinking mostly of volume here, of course. I don't know what I'd expect if I had EQ on and off automation on a track and offset the whole track to EQ off. But I digress.

It works the way I'd expect.

My 2 cents. :)

[UpTilDawn]

There's a difference in thought process here, folks.

On the one hand, some think of offset as being a function that always works on either an entire track or marked area, regardless of anything else.

On the other hand, there are those who think that offset mode works one way in the normal MT mode and another way when in automation mode. To compound this way of thinking, marked areas are seen as a unique scenario when used in automation mode... something not normally available in normal MT mode. That is, one in which offset mode can affect only those entries within the marked area, but only when automation mode is ON...... Not unlike that which is also the expected behavior when adjusting automation entries within a marked area when offset is turned OFF.

I happen to be one of those who have always viewed marked areas and adjustments to automation as being uniquely linked functions. I have NEVER thought that marked areas could be used for offset adjustments without automation mode being turned on and automation entries pre-existing for the offset to be applied.

It doesn't make sense to me that any ol' marked area could be used to adjust channel strip settings anywhere along the timeline (and only within that marked area) simply by entering offset mode to make the adjustment.

If this were actually the case, why would a person ever need automation mode?.... just to see pretty colored markings on the regions? :confused:

If this were the case, everytime I wanted to make an adjustment to a channel strip control and wanted it to only apply to a given point in time (say from 2:03-2:15 in a 3-minute track), I'd mark the area from 2:03-2:15, enter offset mode and make the adjustment and be done with it..... I could hardly think of a need for automation mode anymore.

How is what I just laid out any different than the argument that is being presented in the two preceeding posts?

I would add that I think the others are implying that there needs to be at least SOME automation entries along the timeline (on that particular track, or tracks) and of THAT particular channel strip control for any offset-within-a-marked-area to be applied without adjusting the entire track when not in automation mode.... correct??? If not, then my argument and questions apply completely as I first put forth.

How can someone apply offset to a marked area in the MT WITHOUT automation mode being on and without automation entries having been pre-written to the track that pertain to that particular channel strip control?

[Bob L]

You guys are wayyyyyy overthinking this....

Its very simple... Offset mode has nothing to do with writing automation.... it adjusts control values up or down by an offset amount of where they already are... the marked area simply limits the area on the timeline that is affected... no marked area... it affects the whole timeline... a marked area... it affects only that area... simple and exactly the same with many other functions... like buildmix... etc...

In order to offset a value that is constantly changing... ala pre-existing automation entries... it must offset each of those entries the same in order to perform its function... simple and makes perfect sense... it is not directly connected with automation mode being on or off... it matters not.

Bob L

[UpTilDawn]

You guys are wayyyyyy overthinking this....

Its very simple... Offset mode has nothing to do with writing automation.... it adjusts control values up or down by an offset amount of where they already are... the marked area simply limits the area on the timeline that is affected... no marked area... it affects the whole timeline... a marked area... it affects only that area... simple and exactly the same with many other functions... like buildmix... etc...

In order to offset a value that is constantly changing... ala pre-existing automation entries... it must offset each of those entries the same in order to perform its function... simple and makes perfect sense... it is not directly connected with automation mode being on or off... it matters not.

Bob L

Then how is offset mode not the same as automation mode, when used with a marked area?

[Bob L]

Then how is offset mode not the same as automation mode, when used with a marked area?

Simple...because it only offsets existing automation entries... it does not create new ones.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Simple...because it only offsets existing automation entries... it does not create new ones.

Bob L

I guess my mistake was assuming that automation mode was the only way to write or change existing automation (except for offsetting an entire track's values).

But I must protest that to me it's still odd that one can offset a group of automation entries "blindly"; i.e., those that are hidden in a marked area when we're in normal mode. How can that be a good thing? I just don't see it. (Get it? :rolleyes:) Seems to me it only opens the door to mistakes. Why would anyone, ever intentionally offset a marked area which does not reveal it's content? Seems like bad technique to me. :confused:

Even if the logic stands, the ergonomics do not. IMHO. :)

[studio-c]

with caution and deliberate action.

Bob L

Doh. :D

Srrsly though, when using this OUT of automation mode, I'd at least be right clicking on the WAV button to reveal the automation marks. I'm a little OCD and wouldn't want to do offset while flying blind. And actually I like to see the horizontal volume lines shrink or expand when I offset. Then I know it happened.

[Bob L]

Dave... please... let this go...

In order for Offset to work at all it has to be able to adjust any automation entries on the track or within the marked range... otherwise you CANNOT offset the values on the track...

This is to be used after you have done all your automation work and have a near perfect mix, except that the vocal track (with all of its automation moves) now needs to come up 2 db... so you simply apply an Offset for the fader of 2 db... very simple and an extremely important function... and... for it to work... it must offset each existing automation entry by the same 2 db.... simple... and easy... you can learn how it works... and use it or don't... but that's how it works.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Doh. :D

Srrsly though, when using this OUT of automation mode, I'd at least be right clicking on the WAV button to reveal the automation marks. I'm a little OCD and wouldn't want to do offset while flying blind. And actually I like to see the horizontal volume lines shrink or expand when I offset. Then I know it happened.

Scott, I think your monitor is sideways. ;)

But, yeah. That's what I mean. Why would flying blind ever be a good idea? Thus my suggestion for a trap.

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave... please... let this go...

In order for Offset to work at all it has to be able to adjust any automation entries on the track or within the marked range... otherwise you CANNOT offset the values on the track...

This is to be used after you have done all your automation work and have a near perfect mix, except that the vocal track (with all of its automation moves) now needs to come up 2 db... so you simply apply an Offset for the fader of 2 db... very simple and an extremely important function... and... for it to work... it must offset each existing automation entry by the same 2 db.... simple... and easy... you can learn how it works... and use it or don't... but that's how it works.

Bob L

Man, it seems like you're addressing some issue other than the one I'm on about (as the Brits say), Bob. I have no problem with offsetting the whole track. When you're doing that, you know exactly what you're getting. Powerful indeed. :)

Nor do I have a problem with offsetting a marked area of automation that you can see. Very, very useful and powerful.

I'm talking about offsetting a marked area whose automation content is not at all obvious. In fact it's invisible -- because you can't see automation in normal mode. Don't you see how that's potentially just a little problematic, if not dangerous? :o

(I guess I'll let go of the other thing I pointed out: the ability to offset marked automation in peek mode. It just seemed inconsistent with automation mode being the otherwise-only mode in which we can write less-than-whole-track changes. :o)

[Soundguy]

So the problem is that you are thinking you are offsetting the entire track, but you are only offsetting a marked area that you are unaware is marked because you are looking at a different screen?

Soundguy

[Dave Labrecque]

So the problem is that you are thinking you are offsetting the entire track, but you are only offsetting a marked area that you are unaware is marked because you are looking at a different screen?

Soundguy

No... the problem till now has been, potentially, that I was assuming a marked area in normal mode had no meaning vis-a-vis automation changes. And so I might have thought I was offsetting the whole track while in reality only offsetting the marked automation.

Now I know better, but it still seems like it's something that ought to be trapped for, since there doesn't seem to be a reason to offset marked, yet hidden, automation, which would leave open the possibility of unintended results, since you're 'flying blind' in normal mode.

[Carey Langille]

So, Dave, are you saying, you should HAVE To be in Automation mode to do offsets to marked areas BECAUSE you cant really see the automation on the track??

[Naturally Digital]

So, Dave, are you saying, you should HAVE To be in Automation mode to do offsets to marked areas BECAUSE you cant really see the automation on the track??I think so...

Dave would probably just like the automation entries to be visible in Offset mode.

I thought about this for myself. I think I've always used Offset mode while in automation mode. I don't remember using Offset mode with Automation mode turned off. Sounds like I'm not the only one. Having said that, I don't use Offset mode that much so...

Since Offset mode is affecting automation entries, it may seem logical to display those entries. Otherwise, how does one know where to set start and end points when marking an area?

May be an opportunity for an enhancement.

[Bob L]

Bob. I have no problem with offsetting the whole track. When you're doing that, you know exactly what you're getting. Powerful indeed.

Dave... why is this ok with you but the marked area not... listen to what you are saying... this also offsets all track automation entries that you can't see... it is the same thing.

And if you are concerned, then turn on the visible automation or turn on automation mode so you can see where the entries are... what difference will it make... if you want the offset... it will have to change the automation either way.

Why are we spending so much time on this... and you all wonder why the new updates aren't done yet.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

So, Dave, are you saying, you should HAVE To be in Automation mode to do offsets to marked areas BECAUSE you cant really see the automation on the track??

Yes, but in many more words. :p

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave... why is this ok with you but the marked area not... listen to what you are saying... this also offsets all track automation entries that you can't see... it is the same thing.

I'll say it again. Because if it's the whole track, you know it's the whole track. If it's a marked, hidden area, though, and you can't see the automation, you don't know what automation is being offset. This opens the door to mistakes. Why not trap for that? There are no disadvantages. Only benefits. :)


And if you are concerned, then turn on the visible automation or turn on automation mode so you can see where the entries are... what difference will it make... if you want the offset... it will have to change the automation either way.The difference is that SAW becomes a little bit safer to work in, that's all. :o


Why are we spending so much time on this... and you all wonder why the new updates aren't done yet. I take full responsibility. ;)

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave,

Maybe you can explain why you use Offset so much.
It's possible you are stepping on your own fingers trying to do something offset shouldn't do.:D
Offset is what it is, an offset to change things on final passes and tweaks, where you also need to change automation to match the offset.
I used to use it all the time, and wondered why levels and mixes were messed up. I think it was a similar thread a while back, [Same poster with similar volleys] that cured me from using offset as an edit tool.:D

Hell, Bob makes Saw easy, we make it hard.:)

Stash, it sounds like you're saying you stopped using Offset Mode because it kept messing up your mixes. And dat ain't right.

I use it a lot for the purposes for which it was designed, I think. Offsetting a set of automation entries. Works great. Especially, for me, since Bob put a prompt in there some time ago to stop me from inadvertently messing up my mixes when I'd accidentally stray from the needed sequence of clicks. :) Perhaps that's the thread to which you refer. Lots of fireworks! Not a happy time for many of us (especially Bob).

This, though much, much more minor a concern, is a similar thing, I think. Simply that, IMO, there's a door open to potential unintended consequences that would best be closed. And that there's no reason to keep it open. (There's no need to be able to offset marked, hidden automation that I'm aware of; the user would certainly make it visible via automation mode before writing an offset.)

I guess it's probably not much of a concern to most, since there've been no reports of issues. And/or maybe the issues have gone unnoticed or unidentified. It just seems like a no-brainer to me. Why not make SAW a little bit safer if you can, relatively simply. To me that's an important part of interface optimization: minimizing the chances of 'gotchas' for the user, especially when it takes nothing away from an app's capabilities.

I know... I'm a bit anal. Guilty. :p And verbose. Sorry, Bob. :o

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave,

Well, it really wasn't offset that was my problem.
I was using offset constantly while writing automation and doing mixes. Then, I'd wonder why levels were whacked. I was dialling up some re-dick-ulous mathematical combo.
Then, I realized the 'O' button should 'O'nly be for tweaks , not mixes. My studio life has been much calmer once I aligned with Bob's zen.
And, Bob, I always love the little tips you give here and there on the forum. Your insight on various points of program flow has cut down my editing and mixing time. Waiting for the SAW Ninja Tricks Manual.:D

Thanks,
Stashu

FWIW, I have few problems using Offset Mode 'constantly' -- since Bob added that warning prompt. :)

[Carl G.]

FWIW, I have few problems using Offset Mode 'constantly' -- since Bob added that warning prompt. :)
Dave... simple solution....
Offset your thinking :)

[Microstudio]

Wow I just read all this and I would like to offer this.

OffSet may be the Scientific word that needs to be used but I think of it as "Automation Editing".

Turn it on, and edit Automation on that "Whole" track or Mark an area and edit in the "Marked" area only.

Simple.

P.S I choose the word "Automation Edit" :)

[Dave Labrecque]

Wow I just read all this and I would like to offer this.

OffSet may be the Scientific word that needs to be used but I think of it as "Automation Editing".

Turn it on, and edit Automation on that "Whole" track or Mark an area and edit in the "Marked" area only.

Except that it works on tracks with no automation, too. ;)


Sample.Simple?


P.S I choose the word "Automation Edit" :)Where I come from, that's two words. ;)

[MMP]

I offset areas of mixes all the time, on purpose.

When you enter offset mode, you are entering offset mode.

If you want to affect the whole track don't have a marked area. If you do want to offset a limited area, mark it. The "c" key is your friend. Clear the marked area if you want the whole track affected.

As far as the special case of a track with no automation on it, think of it as a track with initialized automation on it, as that is what it truly is and you can change that initialized state through mix templates.

Dave, the fact that you misunderstood how the function works doesn't warrant a change in the program IMO, though I do respect your unique bug finding abilities, this is really not a bug, its a feature.


Regards,

MM

[MMP]

This is very much how automation and offset works on automated consoles except you often have to mark the area in real time by hitting the offset button and moving the fader the amount you want to scale the automation by and then hitting the offset button again at the end of the changes as the music is playing.

In Saw you just mark the range on the MT where on a console you would hit the begin offset and end offset button in realtime.

Saw's interface totally mimics how this function has worked for decades on many brands of consoles.

Regards,

MM

[Microstudio]

The whole thing here with Dave's question is that SS is doing what it is supposed to do and a person should never have a problem, as in Dave's question, if they don't have the "Offset" aka "Edit Automation" button active when marking areas and editing them not for Automation. I know that sounds pretty over simplified...sorry ;)

[Dave Labrecque]

I offset areas of mixes all the time, on purpose.

When you enter offset mode, you are entering offset mode.

If you want to affect the whole track don't have a marked area. If you do want to offset a limited area, mark it. The "c" key is your friend. Clear the marked area if you want the whole track affected.

As far as the special case of a track with no automation on it, think of it as a track with initialized automation on it, as that is what it truly is and you can change that initialized state through mix templates.

Dave, the fact that you misunderstood how the function works doesn't warrant a change in the program IMO, though I do respect your unique bug finding abilities, this is really not a bug, its a feature.


Regards,

MM
Michael:

1) I thought we were done with this discussion. It's from over a year ago. Where ya been? ;) Maybe you thought it was more recent? I was only addressing Micro's recent post the other day.

2) Well, I guess it's not done, as evidenced by my need to set you straight even today. :p Seriously, though -- I'm pretty sure you're missing my (year-old) point. I'm talking about trapping for what could result in unintended consequences of offset mode, while taking nothing away from it's current feature set.

I don't think it is a fact that I misunderstood how the function works. I think I understood it only too well. Well enough to see an inherent shortcoming in the ergonomics. As stated numerous times IMO it would be safer if the marked-area-while-not-in-automation-mode behavior was trapped for. Unless someone can tell me one good reason that invisible automation (automation under a marked area that's hidden from view while in normal mode) should be uniquely offset from the whole track. To date no one has stepped forward to address this very specific issue. It's really that simple in my view.

In the absence of any such rationale, I can only return to my assessment that it's a behavior that's of no use, while being a potential hazard.

What's the point of claiming a track without automation is really just like a track that has an automation entry at the beginning, other than to try to justify this 'hole' in the ergonomics? Sorry, I just don't get it. :confused:

The challenge before you: tell me when it's useful to you to be able to offset specific automation entries that you can't see, because you're in normal mode, rather than automation mode or 'automation peek' mode.

(Me? When I want to offset a specific group of automation entries, I go into a mode where I can see 'em, mark 'em, then do the offset. I'm assuming everyone else likes to see what they're offsetting when it's not the whole track. But maybe I'm wrong?)

[Dave Labrecque]

The whole thing here with Dave's question is that SS is doing what it is supposed to do and a person should never have a problem, as in Dave's question, if they don't have the "Offset" aka "Edit Automation" button active when marking areas and editing them not for Automation. I know that sounds pretty over simplified...sorry ;)

I'm not following what you're saying here, Micro, but I'm pretty sure you guys are not understanding what I'm saying. Maybe the best thing to get us to understand each other is for you, too, to take the challenge I proposed to Michael.

When do you find it useful to offset whatever automation may be hidden within a marked area while you're in a non-automation mode? I suggest that the answer to this question for all users is never.

[MMP]

Didn't see the orginal thead was from a year ago.

Sorry to revisit the pain.:eek:

[Dave Labrecque]

Didn't see the orginal thead was from a year ago.

Sorry to revisit the pain.:eek:

LOL. That's okay. I'm kind of a masochist that way. ;)

[richswit]

Funny, Bob went over this in detail on his Ustream last night. Having said that, I do understand what Dave is saying....I think....that you would want to see the automation in a marked area you are offsetting. So turn press O for offset, and A to see the automation....but..and this is a big but....one could accidentally offset automation in a marked area not knowing the offset button was on, and start messing with a volume or pan knob on some track. I guess you really have to beware of the Offset button.
It's like getting in the habit of clearing selected regions....I've moved what I thought was one selected region, only to realize there were some selected on down the way from some edit I did 3 minutes ago, and end up moving those too!! You learn real quick after that happens (about 10 times!):eek::eek:

[Ian Alexander]

Here's a question:

Why not make the Offsett button flash, as does the Solo button?

This would not change the underlying operation, but it would make it a bit more obvious to the user that (s)he is in Offset mode.

And I will take a shot at Dave's question. When would I find it useful to have Offset Mode change automation entries that I can't see? Every time. If I marked an area and offset a mixer control, I would be very disappointed if that marked area (and any automation entries in it associated with the control I'm adjusting) were not offset. What else could it do? Offset the beginning and the end of the marked region, but not portions that have automation entries? I don't know how that could work. When I mark an area to be offset, I expect that marked area to be offset, totally and completely, including everything in it. (And yes, this is basically what I said when this thread was considerably younger. As were we.)

My 2c.

[Carl G.]

When do you find it useful to offset whatever automation may be hidden within a marked area while you're in a non-automation mode? I suggest that the answer to this question for all users is never.

Nope. I just re discovered/understood your finding, Dave.
So I tried it out.
I consider it a feature!
I "always" use it from now on!
That is... after I'm finished with a mix... if a VO guy tells me he wants the music lower on ALL tracks ... BAM! I'm done!
Simply select the tracks in the MT - without marking any specific area ...
Punch offset (don't want to be hassled with seeing automation)....
then simply lower the music till he's happy.... then punch Offset again.

Simple.

BUT... (like you mentioned) if you have other tracks down the line that you weren't thinking about.... you later find out after so many undo's that those mixes are off(set) too. So.... simply mark the area of the spot with CNTRL-B (from assumably a trial mix region) and continue as above **safely** without affecting anything down the timeline!

Now... returning this post back to its year old time slot.
"This following has been pre-recorded, had it not been, we would have not been able to play it for you at this time." (Gary Owens-Laugh-In).
(fade up Twighlight Zone music)

[UpTilDawn]

Here's a question:

Why not make the Offsett button flash, as does the Solo button?

This would not change the underlying operation, but it would make it a bit more obvious to the user that (s)he is in Offset mode.

And I will take a shot at Dave's question. When would I find it useful to have Offset Mode change automation entries that I can't see? Every time. If I marked an area and offset a mixer control, I would be very disappointed if that marked area (and any automation entries in it associated with the control I'm adjusting) were not offset. What else could it do? Offset the beginning and the end of the marked region, but not portions that have automation entries? I don't know how that could work. When I mark an area to be offset, I expect that marked area to be offset, totally and completely, including everything in it. (And yes, this is basically what I said when this thread was considerably younger. As were we.)

My 2c.

I didn't think I'd have anything to add to this after all this time...
but let me point out something that would be very easy to miss in using offset with a marked area and not seeing automation within the marked area.

It took me a while to get used to this (and not always what I intended), but recognize that automation adjusted in offset mode will include every mark within the marked area, including the final one, which may offset the entire remaining recording if there are no further entries down the timeline.

Imagine a scenario where multiple, randomly spaced automation entries have been written within a three minute tiimeline. While in "normal" mode, you wish to adjust a marked area around the middle of the recording, so you mark a rough area of 45 seconds in duration that you expect to only cover that roughly timed 45 second section..... only to discover that the last automation entry for that control was made just inside the border of your marked area and affected the entire remaining mix of the recording, which you did not want to happen.

It is therefore easy to see how adjusting a marked area in offset mode without viewing automation entries within that marked area can result in unintended consequences, especially if there are no entries beyond the marked area (or none for a significant amount of time), but the marked area appears to be much smaller than the entire remaining recording.

I think it's just wise to always know precisely where automation entries are made when adjusting marked areas with the offset control...... I believe the simple solution is to always require automation to be visible when adjusting marked areas in offset mode.

On the other hand, I also think it is perfectly reasonable to understand and expect the adjustments to an entire program length can be made easily at any time by simply turning on offset mode and making an adjustment to the track in question..... also reasonably expecting that all pertinent automation entries must and will be adjusted as part of the offset routine. That makes perfect and expected sense to me.

[UpTilDawn]

...So.... simply mark the area of the spot with CNTRL-B (from assumably a trial mix region) and continue as above **safely** without affecting anything down the timeline!
...

Again, this assumes that a person knows precisely where those automation entries have been placed along the timeline..... if they are always at region boundaries AND the regions are separated by at least a minimal gap, then fine.... choose your regions as you describe and no harm done. Otherwise, watch out.... you'd best turn on automation, or peek mode to see what's being affected.

[Dave Labrecque]

And I will take a shot at Dave's question. When would I find it useful to have Offset Mode change automation entries that I can't see? Every time. If I marked an area and offset a mixer control, I would be very disappointed if that marked area (and any automation entries in it associated with the control I'm adjusting) were not offset. What else could it do? Offset the beginning and the end of the marked region, but not portions that have automation entries? I don't know how that could work. When I mark an area to be offset, I expect that marked area to be offset, totally and completely, including everything in it. (And yes, this is basically what I said when this thread was considerably younger. As were we.)

My 2c.

Ian -- I think you missed a piece. The scenario I describe is offsetting a marked area when you can't see what's inside it because you're in normal mode. When would that be useful?

I totally get (and dig) offsetting a whole track. That's not what this is about. When I want to offset just a part of a track , I go into automation mode, mark the area, then offset it. I can't imagine wanting to try to offset automation without seeing where it is. Kind of flying blind. I'd assumed everyone else thought this way, too.

[Dave Labrecque]

I think it's just wise to always know precisely where automation entries are made when adjusting marked areas with the offset control...... I believe the simple solution is to always require automation to be visible when adjusting marked areas in offset mode.

That's it. Why would anyone have a problem with this? It's baffling to me.


On the other hand, I also think it is perfectly reasonable to understand and expect the adjustments to an entire program length can be made easily at any time by simply turning on offset mode and making an adjustment to the track in question..... also reasonably expecting that all pertinent automation entries must and will be adjusted as part of the offset routine. That makes perfect and expected sense to me.Agreed. A powerful and useful feature. And one that would not be impacted by requiring viewing of marked automation that is to be offset. In fact -- this operation (whole track offsetting) would benefit by being doable even when the cursor is in a marked area when in normal mode. (in fact, that's how I expected it to work, until I learned otherwise) As it currently works, you lose the ability to offset the whole track in that case because only automation within the marked portion (albeit hidden from view) is offset -- along with, potentially, as you point out, much of the remainder of the track beyond the marked area.

[Ian Alexander]

Ian -- I think you missed a piece. The scenario I describe is offsetting a marked area when you can't see what's inside it because you're in normal mode. When would that be useful?

I totally get (and dig) offsetting a whole track. That's not what this is about. When I want to offset just a part of a track , I go into automation mode, mark the area, then offset it. I can't imagine wanting to try to offset automation without seeing where it is. Kind of flying blind. I'd assumed everyone else thought this way, too.

Again, my friend, my answer is: every time. I guess my question in return is this. If you were king, in normal mode, and you marked an area that had hidden automation in it, and you offset a mixer control associated with that automation, what WOULD get offset? IOW, how should it work?

[Microstudio]

Ian -- I think you missed a piece. The scenario I describe is offsetting a marked area when you can't see what's inside it because you're in normal mode. When would that be useful?


I think the more important question here is "what is the purpose of marking an area of automation when you can't see it and even more why would you? Also how hard is it to turn on Automation mode so you can see all automation so you then can know what you are editing?

I think you scenario is built on a house of cards with all do respect :D

[Angie]

Also how hard is it to turn on Automation mode so you can see all automation so you then can know what you are editing?



Or right clicking the wave button so you can see automation when not in automation mode.

[UpTilDawn]

It's not that it's "hard" to switch on some view to see automation.

The point is that it's very easy to miss it, or forget about it in the middle of a combined edit/mix session..... at least that's been my experience.

I've compensated to some degree by always entering automation mode when I know I want to do an offset to anything other than a full timeline change.

Even entering offset with "peek" mode turned on can be dicey, since it can be difficult to see exactly what automation is where sometimes. For that matter, marking an area inverts all regions and automation mark colors, which makes it difficult to tell what automation is within the marked area boundaries..... making it even more necessary to be very careful when using offset mode.

Other than full track offset, I just don't feel comfortable marking an area blindly to offset adjust a track. It still seems to me that it could be intuitive and helpful if marking an area and entering offset mode were accompanied by a visible change in the MT that indicated where automation marks are located, be it peek mode, automation mode, or whatever, without the need to "learn" about this critical piece of information after you've already screwed something up. Obviously, as with any other repeated step, a person will eventually learn what to do.... that also is not the point.

[Dave Labrecque]

Again, my friend, my answer is: every time. I guess my question in return is this. If you were king, in normal mode, and you marked an area that had hidden automation in it, and you offset a mixer control associated with that automation, what WOULD get offset? IOW, how should it work?

We've come full circle. This is exactly why I brought this up in the first place. I was in normal mode, I wanted to offset the whole track, the cursor happened to be over a previously-marked area, and I expected that would not be relevant (why would SAW be coded to offset unknown, invisible automation, so my reasoning went). I did the offset and saw the results.

So, to answer your question: if I were king, if the cursor happened to be over a marked area in normal mode, I would want the entire track to be offset. The distinction in our thinking is probably dramatized in the way you worded the question; the question's not quite right for me, because I would never mark an area with offset intentions while in normal mode. I would go into automation mode first, so that I could see where to place the mark appropriately.

OK, so you say 'every time'. This is good information for me. I had no idea anyone would find this behavior useful, rather than as a potential for a mistake. So, now, I ask you: how is this behavior useful to you? When would you ever want to offset a marked area in normal mode? I really want to understand. I just don't see ever wanting to try to offset automation that may (or may not be) hidden inside my marked area. I'd want the visual reference of seeing the automation in order to place the mark.

[Dave Labrecque]

I think the more important question here is "what is the purpose of marking an area of automation when you can't see it and even more why would you? Also how hard is it to turn on Automation mode so you can see all automation so you then can know what you are editing?

I think you scenario is built on a house of cards with all do respect :D

Except that in real life things like this happen. It happened to me. There was a previously existing marked area that the cursor was over while I was in normal mode. I wanted to offset the whole track. Guess what happened?

I agree with everything you say, here, Micros (except for the house of cards bit ;)). There is no purpose to marking an area in normal mode for an offset operation (that I can think of). So why would this function as it does? Why not trap for this potential 'operator error'. It's just clean ergonomic coding IMHO.

[Dave Labrecque]

It's not that it's "hard" to switch on some view to see automation.

The point is that it's very easy to miss it, or forget about it in the middle of a combined edit/mix session..... at least that's been my experience.

I've compensated to some degree by always entering automation mode when I know I want to do an offset to anything other than a full timeline change.

Even entering offset with "peek" mode turned on can be dicey, since it can be difficult to see exactly what automation is where sometimes. For that matter, marking an area inverts all regions and automation mark colors, which makes it difficult to tell what automation is within the marked area boundaries..... making it even more necessary to be very careful when using offset mode.

Other than full track offset, I just don't feel comfortable marking an area blindly to offset adjust a track. It still seems to me that it could be intuitive and helpful if marking an area and entering offset mode were accompanied by a visible change in the MT that indicated where automation marks are located, be it peek mode, automation mode, or whatever, without the need to "learn" about this critical piece of information after you've already screwed something up. Obviously, as with any other repeated step, a person will eventually learn what to do.... that also is not the point.

You totally get me. Why don't others get me? :p

Very well said. And the idea of a view change upon marking an area and entering offset mode (or vice versa) is a great idea. An 'enhanced trap' for the issue at hand.

Bravo, I say. Hear, hear.

[UpTilDawn]

... And the idea of a view change upon marking an area and entering offset mode (or vice versa) is a great idea...

Yeah, I thought about the vice versa right after I posted...... that's probably even more relevant.

That mistake of having marked an area somewhere with the cursor sitting inside of it and not cleared it before going into offset mode has gotten me before, too.... although not very often. With me, it's more a case of accidentally offsetting a control past the point where I want the offset to stop being applied.

I really like being able to mark an area by simply Ctrl/TABbing from one entry marker to another, which means that I end up turning on automation most every time I use offset mode these days..... it's almost become habit.

The thing I have to watch out for more frequently now is that marking an area to offset based on automation boundaries also can get me in trouble, since the offset is applied to the final entry as well as any in between the first and last. That means that all the timeline from the last marked entry until the end of the track (or another entry is reached) is offset, which is more often then not, not what I want. I always have to remember to set the marked area at the second-to-last entry instead..... which is easy for me to forget.... Ooops!

For me, having automation mode turned on when using offset mode is the way to go, so I avoid my most common mistakes more often than not.

[Dave Labrecque]

Yeah, I thought about the vice versa right after I posted...... that's probably even more relevant.

That mistake of having marked an area somewhere with the cursor sitting inside of it and not cleared it before going into offset mode has gotten me before, too.... although not very often. With me, it's more a case of accidentally offsetting a control past the point where I want the offset to stop being applied.

I really like being able to mark an area by simply Ctrl/TABbing from one entry marker to another, which means that I end up turning on automation most every time I use offset mode these days..... it's almost become habit.

The thing I have to watch out for more frequently now is that marking an area to offset based on automation boundaries also can get me in trouble, since the offset is applied to the final entry as well as any in between the first and last. That means that all the timeline from the last marked entry until the end of the track (or another entry is reached) is offset, which is more often then not, not what I want. I always have to remember to set the marked area at the second-to-last entry instead..... which is easy for me to forget.... Ooops!

For me, having automation mode turned on when using offset mode is the way to go, so I avoid my most common mistakes more often than not.

Interesting that you ctrl-TAB between automation entries to set up your marked area. I use B and E or drag in the time line. But always looking at the entries so that I know what I'm marking. Anyway, different strokes...

[Microstudio]

It's not that it's "hard" to switch on some view to see automation.

The point is that it's very easy to miss it, or forget about it in the middle of a combined edit/mix session..... at least that's been my experience.

I do understand your point and there is a point at which we as users of software have to look in the mirror and ask this question: Is it me or is it the developer that is at fault.

In this case I feel it is us. Further more you should never have to use Offset but for small changes at the end of the mixing stage. All changes can be made in Automation mode by just deleting and redoing or making small changes. Offset is really for global small tweaks, at least that's the way I use it for the most part.

Just know that in my upcoming PROShade (Thats FREE!) I have made the MT buttons very big and given the Offset a bright color to make it stand out if it is on. :)

[Dave Labrecque]

I do understand your point and there is a point at which we as users of software have to look in the mirror and ask this question: Is it me or is it the developer that is at fault.

Sorry, but I think this misses the point. It's not a question of fault IMO. It's a question of "Can we make the ride smoother (less potentially problematic) by making this tweak to the code?" In cases where the answer is yes AND there is no degradation to any current functionality, it seems like a no-brainer to me.

When Jeep owners were found to be killing innocent bystanders by accidentally stepping on the accelerator when they thought it was the brake (user error), Jeep did something about it: they added an interlock that wouldn't allow you to put it into gear without first depressing the brake pedal. Should they have held out because it wasn't their fault?

(The thing was that on some models, the pedal assembly was a few inches further to the left compared to most other vehicles, due to the large 'tunnel' in the floor needed to make room for the transmission. In a weird twist of fate in the late 90s I saw the report on 60 Minutes and then a few days later I encountered this exact issue jumping into my Mom's Jeep Wrangler to move it up a few feet at a full-service car wash vacuum station. I nearly took out a couple of attendants. To this day I have no idea what caused me to pick my foot up from the gas, then set it back down on the brake just in time. All I could think was "What the hell is happening?" It was one of those time-slowing-down experiences; though the whole thing happened in less than two seconds, it seemed like a lot longer. I actually heard a voice in my head saying "Just relax." My best guess is some kind of spiritual intervention. But I digress...)