Level in clubs

[Ian Alexander]

I know this might get more answers in the SAC forum, but this is where I live.:o

My wife and I met a friend at a big bar/restaurant Saturday night to hear a cover band play tunes we like. We're in our fifties. They did a decent job of playing a lot of different songs from bands like Chicago, the Doors, Credence, etc. Through the crowd I could not see whether they had someone mixing or the band did it themselves. The mix was ok. I always want more horns and less guitar, but here's the question I've been wondering about for years.

Does the volume in a live venue have to be almost painful to get the desired response from the crowd? Is it the experience of you guys who mix and/or play in bars and clubs that a slightly more reasonable level just won't get people on their feet dancing and buying drinks?

This is not just an old crumudgeon hollering, "Get off my lawn!" I'm really curious about this. In the back corner of the room, we had to shout in each others' ears to converse at all. For me, that made it less enjoyable because I like to talk about music, not just stand there and soak up beer. I will also admit that I do not like exposing my ears to those levels. I want to use them for the rest of my life.

Thanks.

[brent]

It does not have to be. It kind of depends on the act, the room and the desired atmosphere. I mix all kinds of acts in all kinds of rooms, managed by people with very different philosophies.

If a band has a horn section, acoustic drums, etc, then the mix will have to accommodate. If the band is in a small room, it is going to be loud. Musicians cannot play horns softly like a PA may be turned down. A couple of weeks ago I was mixing my church choir and band + orchestra. I told the music director that he might get a few complaints because I hit 93 at the mix position, due to the chimes. I had to get the choir vocals up, and then a few other things to keep up with the stinkin' chimes. I lucked out, because the older people liked the song and arrangement. I find that if older people like a song from their era, it is much more acceptable to have it loud, vs a more contemporary piece of "music".

Many of the churches I service have younger music leaders (and I use that term loosely, because few of them know music and have to use KISS) who want to manipulate the audience into feeling like participating, with excessive SPLs. There are some TV evangelists I have worked for that do the same thing. It is all wrong in my opinion, but that is another story. Some people want to build excitement.

My experience is that SPLs are dictated by the audience. People over 40 have hearing loss. Loud music becomes painful, especially on the high end. This is why our company does not try to cover every room evenly. We want to designate some areas, with good line of sight, as places for people to enjoy and engage, without being blasted and therefore becoming observers only.

I don't like Casinos per se, but I like going to shows at Casinos, because most of them have a grip on this. The sound is usually pretty good and the levels are not excessive.

[Bill Park]

No the level does not have to be crushing, painful, or dangerous. You can watch old movies of small combos playing in the 40s, 50s, and 60s and the whole house is rocking, and they might not have any amplification, or maybe just for the vocals.

I spent a lot of years in arenas, theaters, and clubs. Good sound is good sound, crappy sound is crappy, and it has no bearing on how good the act might be. It does affect the audience though.

In the last several years there has been a pull-back among guitar players, amps getting smaller, tone becoming more important. But drummers have gotten stupidly loud and bass players are still dragging huge amps to small clubs.

[sstillwell]

But drummers have gotten stupidly loud and bass players are still dragging huge amps to small clubs.

Hey...not ALL of us! I take my bass in gig bag over one shoulder and a MarkBass 1x12 combo in the other hand and I'm in the venue and ready to play. I don't play particularly quiet music, either.

If the stage volume is that high, nothing's going to sound good...certainly it's not going to be very controllable at FOH without going to even MORE insane levels. If I can't get the stage level I need in a club out of a 1x12 combo amp, everybody else needs to turn the f*ck down. If that loses me a gig, so be it.

Mind you, the little MarkBass (Mini CMD 121P) DOES get loud...but it's not an SVT stack.

Scott

[RBIngraham]

Well the short answer to your question is that there is no short and easy answer. Or maybe the answer is... it depends...

No the music doesn't have to be loud. But there are a lot of things to consider.

1. Are most people there to take in the band, or are they there to eat and the band is secondary? If the former, then most people probably want it turned up to hear the music over the ambient noise of the bar or restaurant. Or as you pointed out, is the idea to get people on their feet and dancing? Which leads to selling more drinks, which makes more money.... But if it's just supposed to be entertainment for those that happen to be in the joint, then a bit more subdued might be more appropriate. How good the management, band and tech staff (if there is any) take all these into consideration is probably very hit or miss depending on whom you are talking about.

2. The room size was already point out... in smaller rooms it's pretty hard to keep it under control. Drums can only be played so quietly and not sound like you're barely tapping them, etc... lots of times in smaller places vocals and softer instruments are mixed around how loud the drums and/or guitar player are. :)

3. Style of music.... Jazz combos can be a lot more controlled than a rock covers band, etc...

4. The Sound System.... a good one that distributes sound to where it is wanted and covers the space evenly doesn't have to be nearly as loud and you won't end up with areas where it's blaring loud just so other areas get a decent volume. Although Brent makes a good point about having areas where you can still hear just fine but don't have to be there just to listen to the music. It all depends on what the bar is geared towards... again... are most there to eat and talk or are they there to take in the band...

5. Going back to the room... one thing I really hate about the modern method of restaurant and bar construction is to just leave out the ceiling and just have all the open ceiling truss.... I hate this method... I know they are saving money and the like. But it always makes places much louder and the more "open" floor plans these places like to have now days doesn't help much either. Maybe I'm just getting older as well, but I miss the clearly designated "areas" that most places had in my youth... where the band was in the "bar" and the bar had walls around it and if you wanted to eat more than munchies, you want to the dining room, where you could maybe still hear the band and maybe even see it, but you could talk, eat.... and choose to pay attention to the music.. or not... I wish more thought was paid to that now days.... what the **** is with every place having to have a TV set now days? I can count on one hand the number of places where I can go to eat and there is not a TV to distract from actually talking to the people I am there with. It's great when I am dining solo, which I do often as I travel around and such... but when it's my wife and I, she has to make sure to seat me in the seat which has the worst sight of the TV or I will get distracted... :)

[Leadfoot]

When a place says they're gonna have rock bands, then that's what they should mean.. which means, it's probably gonna be loud. And it should be.
If they don't want that, then they shouldn't have them.

Most of the time, just getting vocals and things to be heard over the acoustic levels of the drums, (in a rock type band) in a restaurant/bar, it's gonna have to be a certain level of 'loud'. I personally try to make that 'loud' as pleasant as possible. Meaning 'good' loud, not annoying harsh loud, there's a difference, and knowing how to do that is the real key to your question, no matter where your playing/listening.

[Bill Park]

This is really a no-brainer from a practical standpoint. When I was growing up, bands played to the room, girls came to dance, guys followed the girls, the club made money, the band got paid, made fans, sold merch and everybody was happy.

Now the bands blow the customers out of the room, the vast majority of girls go to a different kind of venue and the guys have followed. It isn't that people won't support new music, it is that they won't stand for being sonically abused.

When I was on tour in the pacific northwest/northern Ca in the 80s we had to abide by the level meter. I carried my own. The club owners all gave us a given level at the bar, usually 110dB. They pretty much didn't care what we played, so long as the customers came.

There is a noise ordinance in Sarasota County. It sucks and has hurt the music business here. But I've stepped into clubs where the band was playing Metallica, and their virtuosity was not compromised by the lack of volume, and the level was plenty loud enough to rock the room.

[demodoc]

Our venue, here in Tehachapi Ca, Fiddlers Crossing http://fiddlerscrossing.org/ (shameless plug) does acoustic music with an occasional electric bass or keyboard. I just use the house sound to reinforce and focus the mix for the room and my aim is to make it as warm and pretty as it can get for an intimate little space....totally the opposite of what you described. I had a good friend who, many years ago, used to say, "they call it sound REINFORCEMENT for a reason!" Just make it bigger but maintain the real acoustic vibe. As a lifelong "folky", it makes me crazy when I hear a rock'n'roll approach used with acoustic music. They'll often start by making the guitar, mandolin, fiddle etc really loud and bright. Then their only choice is to make the vocals even worse. Auuuuurrrrrrggggghhhhhhh!:mad:

Of course, your mileage may (and will) differ. There is certainly a place for loud....just not MY place.:D

[Carl G.]

Resistance is not futile. It is voltage divided by current.
So.... that's the secret to Bob's design!
(sorry Bob.... couldn't resist) :)

[Butch Bos]

Not just in clubs
Did a christian Rock band at a church
Drummer was at 108db at FOH WITH OUT pa on
house sound guy had SPL meter and insisted I turn down to no more than 90
even when I showed him pa was OFF
drummer would not play at a lower volume
It was Hell at Church that night

Butch

[wascomat]

Conventional set-up: first song ok. guitars turn up. singers can't hear wedges. turn up monitors. drummer getting excited, starts beating drums harder. vocals can't go up anymore without feedback. keyboard player can't hear his amp- turns up. singers yelling now instead of singing. FOH engineer gives up and takes everything except vocalists out of FOH. it makes very little difference now since the stage volume is now louder than the FOH anyway. audience hears the backside mud of the wedges that are now so loud that the FOH could be turned off without a great difference. by the end of the gig, everyone hates everyone and blames the FOH engineer for a crap sound.
Sound familiar?

If you have seen any of my earlier posts concerning stage/venue volume you will notice that I actually have it under control... MY control. In the latest configuration of a reunion group (band members had not played together in decades, some hadn't played at all since the 60's) I convinced everyone to go 'amp-less' (not an easy task)

I figured I would have the most problems converting the lead guitar but he liked gadgets and quickly discovered that a pedal that simulated amps/cabinets gave him a great sound and a lot of flexibility. The biggest problem was the heavy hitting drummer that finally went digital with an Alesis electronic set.

Everyone has a netbook/laptop to tweak their own SAC in-ear mix. A professional in-ear monitor is critical in order to get an exciting sound with all the bass etc. Otherwise it is very hard to keep the musicians inspired. We all have CL-535's or equivalent. Turn the mains off and you will only hear a very quiet vocal acoustic mix.

Next the most important part. The FOH. This band is lucky enough to not have a live horn section, otherwise this wouldn't be possible.( I am a trumpet player but not in this band) The FOH will naturally need to take into consideration what acoustic volume is coming directly from the stage and heard by the audience. In case of amps on stage, or a live horn section, this stage volume determines what the FOH needs to do in order to have some kind of balance that the audience will hear. (this applies mainly in smaller/medium rooms... as an example in a stadium very little makes it directly to the audience from the stage and the sound is deadened by the open air acoustics)

So what I have seen engineers do for the FOH is try to 'overpower' the stage volume with the house system. I believe this accounts for the bleeding ears in a lot of cases. In other cases the FOH engineer attempts to add excitement by cranking everything up to the max. I guess some of the audience would consider that to be exciting but in fact most would consider it to be irritating.

It will vary widely depending on the age of the audience and the style of music but the best compromise of all (IMO) is a balanced mix. Every FOH can produce a lot of volume at 1k-4k. Every guitar amp can produce a lot of sound at 1k-4k., but a balanced sound that has the lows/mids/highs will win most of the audience in any venue. A mix that has just the right amount of instruments mixed with the vocals and appropriate effects will get the attention of most of the crowd.

It takes a seasoned engineer to listen and mix to get that to happen. Overly loud volumes have an natural effect that I call squashing to the ears. The bandwidth seems to go all mid-range and the audience can get listening fatigue very quickly where the freq response just goes to the mid range.

I post this in an effort to convey my experience to others that may be able to
control the stage volume by at least having the amps at a very low volume. Or in case someone want to actually try this 'no amps on stage' method. What a difference this makes in the FOH mix !

No wedges on stage (in-ears only) No side fills (all of these monitors simply add to the stage volume anyway and get into the vocal mics too) No amps on the backline (+++ stage volume and +++++ into the vocal mics ugggg sounds awful)
Very quick setup. A direct box for all instruments, a vocal mic for singers... that's it. SAC to the rescue. Now no matter what room this band plays in, the in-ear mix is exactly the same. The FOH is set MUCH lower with a full range mix- everyone is happy. The audience can talk over this mix (if I decide lol) Or I can rock it to the max if that's what's required. I am now the good guy instead of the idiot running sound.

Good luck having musicians that will sacrifice their egos for the good of the band sound. I was lucky, I know.

Jim Stafford

[Bill Park]

Assuming a rock/pop band, the first thing that I need to hear is the vocals.

The first thing the sound guy starts to work on is the kick drum. hmmmmmmmmm......

When I'm mixing, the first thing that I start to work on is the vocals. The rest of the mix comes in to support the vocals, everything falls together pretty quickly.

[RBIngraham]

Assuming a rock/pop band, the first thing that I need to hear is the vocals.

The first thing the sound guy starts to work on is the kick drum. hmmmmmmmmm......

When I'm mixing, the first thing that I start to work on is the vocals. The rest of the mix comes in to support the vocals, everything falls together pretty quickly.


No stereotyping going on here.... :D


Seriously, not all sound "guys" (we do actually have women who mix now days, by the way... in fact several of my better mixers over the years do not have a penis) work in the cliché way. Not sure how that BS got started, but those that know what they are doing don't work that way. My gut says that it might have been started because they started with the drum set and positioning those mics as it does take the longest to get those mics correct on your typical rock drum set. I mean the rest of the stuff is either a DI box or you stick a mic in front of an amp.. or it's a vocal mic right? So I guess if you're starting with the drum set, the first one you might work on is Kick? I mean I wouldn't, I would start with overheads and then bring in the other mics as needed, but that's just me?

[Bill Park]

really??? do I have to say "soundPERSON"???? Here among friends? Because I'll tell you right now, there is no consensus on the road, even among the women in the job, as to what they should be called.

I always used the term 'sound guy' for myself because it makes no claims to me, other than there might be a sound board involved. Possibly microphones.

[RBIngraham]

really??? do I have to say "soundPERSON"???? Here among friends? Because I'll tell you right now, there is no consensus on the road, even among the women in the job, as to what they should be called.

I always used the term 'sound guy' for myself because it makes no claims to me, other than there might be a sound board involved. Possibly microphones.


Take it easy.... just saying... :)

Just a pet peeve of mine... probably because I work in theatre and there are a lot more women working in theatre and some of my best assistants and crew have been female....

But now that I'm thinking about it... yeah, I would say, that it is more appropriate to say Sound Mixer or anything is more appropriate than Sound Guy. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really like being called the "Sound Guy", to me it's usually used in the derogatory context of... here is the sound guy... he's the idiot that is responsible for us not hearing what we want to hear and that makes us sound like ****....

I guess we just spend more time thinking about appropriate job titles in theatre, if for no other reason than you have to call them something in the program. :D Although there is not a great deal of consensus about what to call the various sound staff member in theatre either, except for the Sound Designer position. The other areas are more well defined that is for sure, but sound is the red headed step child of theatre, still. :(

[Angie]

I think Bill knows me well enough to know that I'm not offended by the gender slant of "sound guy". I've probably even been guilty of using the term myself as a generalization. Now, if you don't think I can do the job because I am a woman. Of that I take great offense.

[Bill Park]

... yeah, I would say, that it is more appropriate to say Sound Mixer or anything is more appropriate than Sound Guy. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really like being called the "Sound Guy", to me it's usually used in the derogatory context of... here is the sound guy... he's the idiot that is responsible for us not hearing what we want to hear and that makes us sound like ****....

I guess we just spend more time thinking about appropriate job titles in theatre,.....

I picked 'sound guy' for myself for exactly the reasons you stated. If what I do doesn't disprove that pejorative, then I should have stayed home. Fancy titles drive me nuts.

And my last 20 years in the business were primarilly spent in the theater at the Benedum, Byham, Heinz Hall, O'Reilly, and Cabaret Theaters... usually the Benedum, and usually working with touring theater companies. Maybe you think more about job titles in Cleveland. It didn't seem to be an issue in Pittsburgh theater or with the theatrical road crews. Or with Angie, apparently... Hi Ange! It seems to be an issue with people who are not really getting paid what their job is worth... they have a title instead of a living wage, and they cling to it.

Insults are one thing, political correctness is another. I try not to insult. I seriously dislike PC, I think that it is mostly nonsense. I treat the people I work with exactly as I want to be treated, no more, no less. I'm not going to spend a lot of time hemming and hawing over titles, and I'm not going to say something like, "Hey there, Girly... why not bring those sweet cheeks over here with that microphone cable..."

I'm reminded of a friend who started his own woodworking shop. Someone wanted to know his title, and he said, "I guess I'm the boss..." and that is what he ended up putting on his business cards and letterhead. I thought that was kind of humorous.

So I guess that is my point... have a sense of humor and don't let other peoples labels define who you are.

[mr_es335]

Hello,

A number of months ago, I took a few of my older guitar students to a club to see a guitarist whom I greatly admire and respect. Now, it has been some time since I have been in a live venue and I was very surprised with regards to the overall loudness of the performance. Very simply, it was way too loud!

In discussing this with the performer a few days later, he told me that most clubs in the area want the levels to be around 110db. I found this to be somewhat shocking, so I called a few of the local clubs and I was surprised to find that they were saying the very same thing. What was equally surprising was their reasoning for the increased volume levels, “The louder the music, the louder they talk, and the louder they talk the thirstier they get!”

Has anyone else heard of this? Is this becoming the norm?

[Bill Park]

Hello,


In discussing this with the performer a few days later, he told me that most clubs in the area want the levels to be around 110db. I found this to be somewhat shocking, so I called a few of the local clubs and I was surprised to find that they were saying the very same thing. What was equally surprising was their reasoning for the increased volume levels, “The louder the music, ....

Interesting. In the pacific northwest the 110 spec (at the bar) was so that the bartenders could hear to take drink orders, and was considered quiet not loud.

Here in Sarasota county they've been crafty... there is no noise rating attached to the ordinance. Basically, if the guy who complains has the juice, you get written up. So many writeups, you get shut down. There is no way to comply if they just want to get rid of you. I don't think that anyone is playing at 110.

[mr_es335]

Hello,

Is the following valid?:

[TonyHarvey]

We have actually started 'advertising ourselves' as a "hi-def" band. My words for the idea of - "not crazy loud, but very, very good and clean".

We also emphasize in our marketing when clubs are NO-smoking (an increasing trend in Indiana).

Our belief is that there is a considerable market of people that appreciate not-crazy loud in a no smoking environment.

Trying to target people like the original poster and his wife that wanted some good music to have fun around and to not wake up with ringing ears and a smokey clothes closet.

Don't get me wrong, there are certainly plenty of great bands that are very loud - I enjoy Rush concerts and they are pretty loud - but I don't think people are coming to a bar/saloon/club exclusively to see us perform. There are other reasons, like socializing and having fun, and we are there to enhance all of those things - NOT to be the exclusive focal point of the evening.

I also believe (non-scientific here) that people are less inclined to get violent or fight with a more reasonable volume from a band. It seems harder to get angry when your not screaming in the first place!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/423642_10150582740736946_103195011945_9397743_6669 82773_n.jpg

[Cary B. Cornett]

My bar band mixing days... ok, nights... basically ended when my ears were ringing loudly at the end of the night. I have had constant tinnitus ever since, but fortunately not loud. I mainly notice it when things around me are really quiet. Just the same, that night I decided that my hearing was worth more to me than 75 bucks a night, and I told them I wouldn't be back.

[Brent Evans]

Hello,

Is the following valid?:

Partially... IIRC those ratings are for continuous SPL, such as in a manufacturing plant. Live music is a bit more dynamic... the peaks might touch 110 db, but the average is probably a bit less than that.

Still though, it doesn't have to be that loud if its clean.

Of course, low volume distortion is much more unpleasant than high volume clean sound.

[demodoc]

I've certainly done my share of listening to loud music and monitoring much louder than I needed to in my work but I sure am glad to, now, have an intimate little acoustic music venue where the function of the sound system is to re-balance and support the sound rather than to slam people in the guts. My hat's off to all of you who do club sound and work with louder acts...you have your hands (and ears) full. I count my blessings for not having to deal with it, myself:D

[Dave Labrecque]

My bar band mixing days... ok, nights... basically ended when my ears were ringing loudly at the end of the night. I have had constant tinnitus ever since, but fortunately not loud. I mainly notice it when things around me are really quiet. Just the same, that night I decided that my hearing was worth more to me than 75 bucks a night, and I told them I wouldn't be back.

That's a drag, Cary. I fear you're not alone.

I've wondered for years whether part of the explanation for the high incidence of bad live sound could be the fact that partially deaf sound guys are at FOH. It only makes sense.

Isn't it ironic? Dontcha think?

[RBIngraham]

I picked 'sound guy' for myself for exactly the reasons you stated. If what I do doesn't disprove that pejorative, then I should have stayed home. Fancy titles drive me nuts.

And my last 20 years in the business were primarily spent in the theater at the Benedum, Byham, Heinz Hall, O'Reilly, and Cabaret Theaters... usually the Benedum, and usually working with touring theater companies. Maybe you think more about job titles in Cleveland. It didn't seem to be an issue in Pittsburgh theater or with the theatrical road crews. Or with Angie, apparently... Hi Ange! It seems to be an issue with people who are not really getting paid what their job is worth... they have a title instead of a living wage, and they cling to it.

Insults are one thing, political correctness is another. I try not to insult. I seriously dislike PC, I think that it is mostly nonsense. I treat the people I work with exactly as I want to be treated, no more, no less. I'm not going to spend a lot of time hemming and hawing over titles, and I'm not going to say something like, "Hey there, Girly... why not bring those sweet cheeks over here with that microphone cable..."

I'm reminded of a friend who started his own woodworking shop. Someone wanted to know his title, and he said, "I guess I'm the boss..." and that is what he ended up putting on his business cards and letterhead. I thought that was kind of humorous.

So I guess that is my point... have a sense of humor and don't let other peoples labels define who you are.

The Pittsburgh local must be a lot different than the Cleveland local.... what job you show up for on most IA calls I know will usually determine what tools a hand does or does not bring with them and what they will and will not touch, etc, etc, etc.... depending on the venue and it's contract of course...

A different subject matter of course than what appears in the program. But it's an example of when your job title does matter.

[Cary B. Cornett]

That's a drag, Cary. I fear you're not alone.

I've wondered for years whether part of the explanation for the high incidence of bad live sound could be the fact that partially deaf sound guys are at FOH. It only makes sense.

Isn't it ironic? Dontcha think? That may account for some of it, but my nights working at Scalici's taught me a lot about how you can have good gear and good ears, and still get really bad sound for reasons that are beyond your control. Blasting backlines, drummers with jackhammers for hands, and the "excitable singing room" make for an unbeatable combination, as in the sound guy gets beat up by it. The good nights were when I could make the words of the songs understandable.

[Bill Park]

I hated to give up club work because I love working with excited young performers who think that they are re-inventing the world. But what has happened? Bands used to understand that they were in a partnership with the venue, that if each partner did their job everyone would be happy. Now bands come in thinking that they are the only important thing going on, and that what the venue needs is unimportant. And they've decided that louder equals better.

The upshot has been an over-all loss of interest in live music in all but the college towns, and the increase in sports bars and DJs, where the volume level still allows you to converse and meet people, and where you can order a drink and the bartender can hear you.

The live music clubs used to be the 'big deal', but now they struggle, unless they are hiring cover bands that play at dining levels. Those rooms usually cater to diners, who don't care what band is playing, the band is a substitute juke box.

[Dave Labrecque]

That may account for some of it, but my nights working at Scalici's taught me a lot about how you can have good gear and good ears, and still get really bad sound for reasons that are beyond your control. Blasting backlines, drummers with jackhammers for hands, and the "excitable singing room" make for an unbeatable combination, as in the sound guy gets beat up by it. The good nights were when I could make the words of the songs understandable.

BTW -- didn't mean to imply that you were responsible for some bad sound. Sorry if it came across that way.

Thanks for the reminder on the restrictions within which the sound guy has to work oftentimes. I've done a bit of live mixing myself, and I've faced those very issues; you'd think it'd be more front-of-mind for me. :o Live sound is usually a whole different beast than getting a studio mix. It's more like triage. "How can I minimize this disaster?"

[Cary B. Cornett]

BTW -- didn't mean to imply that you were responsible for some bad sound. Sorry if it came across that way.
I didn't think that your comment about "half deaf" engineers was aimed at me specifically, so I took no personal offense. I was just making an observation about what I had learned.

Thanks for the reminder on the restrictions within which the sound guy has to work oftentimes. I've done a bit of live mixing myself, and I've faced those very issues; you'd think it'd be more front-of-mind for me. :o Live sound is usually a whole different beast than getting a studio mix. It's more like triage. "How can I minimize this disaster?"
Yeah. Every time we do a live gig (I say "we" because lately my wife has been dragged into this), we start with the hope that this time we can get closer to making things sound the way they should. At least now we can't blame the mix rig (SAC), although we do wish for better amps and speakers. We haven't been doing rock bands (our rig is way underpowered for that), so we haven't had to fight backlines and drummers. Mostly we're working on getting better gain before feedback without getting the time to properly ring out the system first.

Particularly when it comes to having to set up and tear down my own rig (at Scalici's I was working with an installed system that was already adjusted as to feedback EQ), I am still more of a studio guy than a live sound guy, and my long-suffering wife is having to learn our version of combat audio in the trenches. Oh well, at least neither of us has trenchfoot yet. :):rolleyes:

[Dave Labrecque]

I didn't think that your comment about "half deaf" engineers was aimed at me specifically, so I took no personal offense. I was just making an observation about what I had learned.
Yeah. Every time we do a live gig (I say "we" because lately my wife has been dragged into this), we start with the hope that this time we can get closer to making things sound the way they should. At least now we can't blame the mix rig (SAC), although we do wish for better amps and speakers. We haven't been doing rock bands (our rig is way underpowered for that), so we haven't had to fight backlines and drummers. Mostly we're working on getting better gain before feedback without getting the time to properly ring out the system first.

Particularly when it comes to having to set up and tear down my own rig (at Scalici's I was working with an installed system that was already adjusted as to feedback EQ), I am still more of a studio guy than a live sound guy, and my long-suffering wife is having to learn our version of combat audio in the trenches. Oh well, at least neither of us has trenchfoot yet. :):rolleyes:

OK, now I'm feeling like I was pretty insensitive about your tinnitus. Sorry, man. :o