SAC + SAW For Click Track Playback

[Moderato Maestoso]

Hi guys,

I am looking at an SAC + SAW rig to trigger click tracks and submix the band for a Christmas show.

My main question is: Is it possible to use SAC to trigger tracks in SAW (with the link activated), and can it automatially cue up the next track to be triggered by SAC (via MIDI note or MIDI Show Control)?

For example, I could have the (multi)tracks:

- Overture
- Underscore A
- Opening Number
- Underscore B
- Baddie Entrance Music
- Baddie Song
- Underscore C

Etc. etc....

Can these be cued up automatically by SAC, so that as soon as one finishes playing, the next is ready to go on a cue from SAC (MIDI or MSC)?

Many thanks,

Martin

[Butch Bos]

The short answer is YES saw can do that

Butch

[Moderato Maestoso]

Thanks Butch :)

[Bob L]

You would actually create your show control in SAWStudio and use it to cue from track to track. It can also send commands thru the link to SAC to change scenes for each different section of the show.

It can also send lighting commands or generate SMPTE for a lighting board to follow.

Bob L

[Moderato Maestoso]

Thanks Bob.

My plan is to use the SAC+SAWStudio system to submix various elements of the band and click tracks, submix various Sound FX sources, provide band monitoring, and trigger the media servers, LX desk, and digital scenery system via MIDI.

A picture is worth a thousand words, so:

http://www.moderatomaestoso.com/overview.jpg

Cheers!

Martin

[JLepore]

You have inputs coming from both the SAC rig and the M7 directly. They will be out of time with each other. How are you going to compensate for this (both ways since you seem to be feeding back to SAC for some monitor inputs).

[RBIngraham]

Thanks for the reply Bud.

SAC doesn't use a timeline, but SAW does, right? Is it possible to cue up in SAW a playlist of multitrack sessions which can then be triggered sequentially by SAC (so the first "Go" command from SAC plays the first session, the second "Go" plays the second session in the playlist, the third "Go" plays the third session etc etc.)?

All the website says is:



Which is great, but I need to trigger multitracks sequentially at many different points in the show.

Cheers!

Martin


It's actually the other way around. SAW can trigger Scenes in SAC, but there is nothing in SAC that can control SAW. You will need to keep the Show Control window from SAW visible on your display somewhere and that can be your cue list.

Actually since it looks like you have a SCS system, I would just have it trigger SAW via MIDI and maybe keep the Show Control window of SAW visible just so you can monitor what it going on.

Also a side note, I find triggering of SAW via MIDI (either with a MIDI GO button of some kind or from some other software, like SFX or SCS, etc...) is the best way to run a show with SAW. I had some crash issues when we tried to keep the show control window floating over the SAC window and just use the mouse or keyboard to run SAW. By using MIDI to trigger SAW, which in turn can fire off scenes in SAC, that is the best and most reliable way to work and no crash issues.

[Moderato Maestoso]

You have inputs coming from both the SAC rig and the M7 directly. They will be out of time with each other. How are you going to compensate for this (both ways since you seem to be feeding back to SAC for some monitor inputs).

Out of time in terms of latency? Is there no kind of latency compensation in SAC?

Yes, the only reason I'm having the M7 feedback to SAC is for (band) monitoring purposes.

The inputs to SAC are:
- Internally from SAWStudio
- 2x Media Servers
- Digital Scenery
- Keyboard Submixes
- From the M7 (for Band Monitoring)

The alternative would be to get another RayDAT / ADA8000s so I could run EVERYTHING through SAC and send to the M7 from there. I would like to have the vocal processing on the vox returns though.

[Moderato Maestoso]

It's actually the other way around. SAW can trigger Scenes in SAC, but there is nothing in SAC that can control SAW. You will need to keep the Show Control window from SAW visible on your display somewhere and that can be your cue list.

Ah ok, thanks!


Actually since it looks like you have a SCS system, I would just have it trigger SAW via MIDI and maybe keep the Show Control window of SAW visible just so you can monitor what it going on.

Yes, I was planning to use SCS as the "main" trigger for everything, and have the SCS laptop on the MD stand with me.

Cheers!

Martin

[RBIngraham]

Out of time in terms of latency? Is there no kind of latency compensation in SAC?

Yes, the only reason I'm having the M7 feedback to SAC is for (band) monitoring purposes.

The inputs to SAC are:
- Internally from SAWStudio
- 2x Media Servers
- Digital Scenery
- Keyboard Submixes
- From the M7 (for Band Monitoring)

The alternative would be to get another RayDAT / ADA8000s so I could run EVERYTHING through SAC and send to the M7 from there. I would like to have the vocal processing on the vox returns though.


What Joe means is that some inputs will have more latency than others and it could lead to comb filtering, especially if any of the channels are mixed together. For example, an instrument mic that doesn't go through SAC picking up an instrument that does, well now not only do you have the bleed from one mic into another (which also results in comb filters of course) but now those two channels get mixed together and sent to the main speaker arrays and one has more latency than the other.

From your set up, the only thing I would really worry about is those keyboards. If they are playing with other instruments in an orch pit situation, that could become an issue. And also having some audio make two trips through SAC and a trip through the M7 could add a lot of latency.

Depending on your SAC system is will probably have something akin to 5ms or so of latency input to output. The M7 is around 3.5 or so if memory serves. So now you're looking at 13 to 15 or more ms of latency round trip for some audio paths, that can verge on the threshold of being too much. But it will all depend on what those audio signals are and what the monitors will be (ears or a wedge or a hotspot?) and probably a lot of other variables that are hard to account for only with the information that we know so far.

Ideally, I try to keep all my audio paths with the same amount of latency. So that no audio is coming out of any speaker or monitor system with any more or less latency than some other system. That way I can be sure when I add some time alignment delay or the like, that I am not fighting something else.

[JLepore]

Yes .. what richard said - only it also effects his guitars and bass as well as the keys (and hopefully some of those inputs are not tracks to play with. The round trip latency will probably be enough of a difference to throw people off timing wise.

No, there is no latency compensation in SAC - it just doesn't allow anything that could cause internal latency, but there will always be I/O and engine latency of a fixed amount based on your system and settings.

[RBIngraham]

Just to be clear, all digital gear will introduce some latency. This is not unique to SAC. All digital mixers, DSP units, etc..... How much depends on the make and model and what sample rate you're using on your system and in the case of SAC, what sound cards you're using and what ASIO buffer size you run your system at and maybe some other variables as well.

I don't think there are any digital consoles out there that do automatic latency compensation, like you might be used to seeing on a DAW, where some are able to compensate automatically for latency when you send audio out of the DAW for processing and return it on other tracks.

Live mixers and similar devices just don't do that.

In fact some consoles do not even have consistent through put latency from input to output. Some will have more or less latency based on how many virtual busses or other processing you do internally on the console. The M7 is an example of one of those desks.

SAC is actually better than most since it will at least maintain a consistent amount of latency from any input to any output, unless you use the Aux Send - Returns to go out to septate hardware and back in again.

But if you start making multiple trips in and out of SAC along with the M7, that latency can build up to an unusable amount. I would try to minimize that as much as possible.

[Moderato Maestoso]

Thanks for the replies guys! After talking to a couple of the production team as well, and taking what you said into account, I think we're actually going to do away with monitor mixes from SAC, and use Behringer PM-16 modules instead. SAC will essentially end up being a very flexible submixer/router, as well as the click track playback system!

Cheers,

Martin