Can't play soundfile view

[Ian Alexander]

Anybody seen this?

I'm working with 48k, 24-bit files in a 44k, 24-bit session. The files were originally recorded for a video, but the client wants a CD. When I double-click a file in the MT to jump to the soundfile view, I can't play the sound file. If I right click or press the spacebar, I get a very brief message that says, ASIO Driver Reset in Progress, then SS jumps back to the MT and starts to play it, instead.

I'm on Win 7 Home Premium with SS Full using ASIO and a Lynx L22.

Thanks.

[905shmick]

I'm more of a SAC guy than a SAW guy, but I seem to recall something similar to this being discussed with SAW and it was related to the master clock device. Making sure the sound card was the master clock device, not a preamp or other device.

[Arco]

I believe if your Clock Source is Internal (SAW is in charge) the change from playing 48k to 44.1k will be less bumpy. I have mine synched to an RME ADi-8 sometimes and when I do, I have to reach down and change the Clock to 44.1 or 48 depending on what I playing.

I think if you change your Clock Source on your sound card to "internal" SAW will make the change automatically.

[Naturally Digital]

Yes Ian, let us know if you're clocked internally. I remember having this a long time ago with Lynx cards but don't remember the circumstances. If it's a problem with SAW's communication with the Lynx ASIO driver, it would be nice to push for a fix.

[Ian Alexander]

The Lynx is definitely clocked internally. The only external devices are the ADA8000 used for headphone feeds, talkback, etc., and the DAT deck in the booth used as a remote meter. Doesn't matter if they are powered up or not. The soundfile view still won't play.

[Bob L]

Try setting the MT to 48k and see if it will play... if not... then there is something going on with the driver and 48k rates... make sure the Lynx is the master clock and your converters are clocked to the adat optical for sync.

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

Try setting the MT to 48k and see if it will play... if not... then there is something going on with the driver and 48k rates... make sure the Lynx is the master clock and your converters are clocked to the adat optical for sync.

Bob L
With MT set to 48k, I can double-click to the SFV and play the 48k sound file. With the MT set to 44k, I can't. The Lynx is set to Internal and the ADA8000 is slaved to the incoming optical signal. The ADA maintains sync while changing sample rates and playing back. Thanks.

[Naturally Digital]

I've had this same problem. I'll check and see if it still happens.

Note it is with the L22/LynxTwo/AES16 generation of cards. I don't think this happens with the LynxOne (which uses a different, much older driver).

[Ian Alexander]

I've had this same problem. I'll check and see if it still happens.

Note it is with the L22/LynxTwo/AES16 generation of cards. I don't think this happens with the LynxOne (which uses a different, much older driver).
I never had this issue using MME, but I don't think that's an option under Win 7.

I have a Lynx ONE in another computer, but it's an XP machine, so I can't test it under the same conditions without opening cases, etc. Not worth it yet.

[Ian Alexander]

More info.

If I start SS, open a session with 48k files on a 44k MT, and double click a region in the MT before playing anything, I can play the 48k file in the soundfile view. Once I have played the 44k MT, the SFV will not play the 48k file. The MT will always play.

It appears that once the MT has set the ASIO driver to 44k, the SFV cannot change it. But if the SFV plays first at 48k, the MT can change it back to 44k.

With a 44-16 file on the MT, I can double click it and play it in the SFV, even if the MT is set to 44-24, so the bit resolution doesn't seem to suffer from the same issue.

[Ian Alexander]

I've had this same problem. I'll check and see if it still happens.

Note it is with the L22/LynxTwo/AES16 generation of cards. I don't think this happens with the LynxOne (which uses a different, much older driver).
I have posted this question in the Lynx forum, too. I'll let you know if they have any ideas. Lynx is another company with very responsive support.

[Naturally Digital]

I never had this issue using MME, but I don't think that's an option under Win 7.I was having the issue under XP using ASIO.

[Carl G.]

With MT set to 48k, I can double-click to the SFV and play the 48k sound file. With the MT set to 44k, I can't. The Lynx is set to Internal and the ADA8000 is slaved to the incoming optical signal. The ADA maintains sync while changing sample rates and playing back. Thanks.

Ian, near same situation and solution here.

Postive side: Gentle reminder to keep a lid on an excessive amount of sample rate conversions happening live time in the MT (which it does excellently - and has for over a decade now! - I'm still amazed at how far ahead Bob was in his programming abilities with SawStudio).

[Dave Labrecque]

Gentle reminder to keep a lid on an excessive amount of sample rate conversions happening live time in the MT...

Why, Carl?

[Ian Alexander]

Ian, near same situation and solution here.

Postive side: Gentle reminder to keep a lid on an excessive amount of sample rate conversions happening live time in the MT (which it does excellently - and has for over a decade now! - I'm still amazed at how far ahead Bob was in his programming abilities with SawStudio).

While I often do SRC just for kicks:rolleyes:, in this case I needed to make a CD from 48k files. I could have done all the editing at 48 I suppose and then changed to 44, but watching everything shift makes me nervous. Also, CSG requires a 44k session.

[Dave Labrecque]

While I often do SRC just for kicks:rolleyes:, in this case I needed to make a CD from 48k files. I could have done all the editing at 48 I suppose and then changed to 44, but watching everything shift makes me nervous. Also, CSG requires a 44k session.

You could do all the editing at 48, then render an output file and put it in a new 44.1 session with CSG.

I tend to prefer doing as much MT processing as possible at native sample rates, then doing the SRC at the render phase or later, my thinking being that all those individual region SRC's mixing together can't be as good as one final SRC on the whole mix. This is strictly an intuitive thing, though. Someone else with more technical knowledge will have to chime in and tell me how silly I'm being.

[Bob L]

Dave is correct... keep the MT at the native rate and do the conversion with the Process/Mixdown Highest Quality SRC setting... this involves only one level of SRC... if you change the MT rate... every track does SRC first and then mixes together... so you will multiple the artifacts by the number of tracks.

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

Dave is correct... keep the MT at the native rate and do the conversion with the Process/Mixdown Highest Quality SRC setting... this involves only one level of SRC... if you change the MT rate... every track does SRC first and then mixes together... so you will multiple the artifacts by the number of tracks.

Bob L

Good to know. In this session, though, no mixing. Just editing and making 44k files. And again, CSG requires a 44k session.

[UpTilDawn]

I have to agree with both Bob and Dave for the reasons they both sited.
One rate conversion, new session to use with CSG and you have the best of both worlds.

I'm actually in the process of doing the same thing with a current session where the files were recorded at 48k and will end up on an audio CD.

[Ian Alexander]

I have to agree with both Bob and Dave for the reasons they both sited.
One rate conversion, new session to use with CSG and you have the best of both worlds.

I'm actually in the process of doing the same thing with a current session where the files were recorded at 48k and will end up on an audio CD.

Only one track in the session. I think that means only one rate conversion. And even if my approach was a bad practice, shouldn't the file play?

[UpTilDawn]

Only one track in the session. I think that means only one rate conversion. And even if my approach was a bad practice, shouldn't the file play?

Good point.
I'd forgotten what your original post was about there. :rolleyes:

I hadn't given it a second though in the session I'm currently working on..... even though I normally run SAW at 24 bit/44.1k and this one is at 48k. Soundfile view has given me no issues, but then again, I'm using RME and not Lynx. Sorry...

[Ian Alexander]

Good point.
I'd forgotten what your original post was about there. :rolleyes:

I hadn't given it a second though in the session I'm currently working on..... even though I normally run SAW at 24 bit/44.1k and this one is at 48k. Soundfile view has given me no issues, but then again, I'm using RME and not Lynx. Sorry...

Thanks. :)

It may be a Lynx issue. I've asked about it in their forum, too. But I don't know how a driver issue could make the MT play when I press the spacebar or right click in the SF view.

[UpTilDawn]

While I often do SRC just for kicks:rolleyes:, in this case I needed to make a CD from 48k files. I could have done all the editing at 48 I suppose and then changed to 44, but watching everything shift makes me nervous. Also, CSG requires a 44k session.

I used to wonder about the shift, too, especially after I'd just created a marked area and then would see the regions change position relative to it. :confused: Now, I just take it in stride if I happen to do something in that kind of order.

CSG will readily insert into a session that's been changed from 48k to 44.1k, but you do need to be concerned about Locate marker positions and marked area when you go to build the tracks..... Personally, I think that any marker references already created at one sample rate should move relative to their original reference points if the sample rate of the session is changed. It's a shock to be sure! :eek:

Myself, I'd do all my editing, mixing, etc., then change the sample rate of the session and set the conversion quality to highest (just to be sure it's been taken care of).... then create any Locator reference points (if that's how you work), insert CSG and make all the CD markers based on my Locator positions in your situation, Ian.

You CAN, however, use the Control track to make your CSG track reference makrs at anytime during the session editing (marked with the Q key) and those positions will move relative to the changing regions when you set the session sample rate from 48k to 44.1k.

I guess I should be using the Control track to do all my markers from now on as well, but that's one more track I always end up needing to move into the common view position in the MT if I want to make frequent, or quick references to it throughout the session work, including to make the CSG track markers. Moving the track up to the front of the MT, or setting up an F-key or two with it in view and saving as a new default view isn't so painful and I could do it if I must, but those options also take up valuable MT viewspace that I'd rather devote to my multi-track needs most of the time.

I still feel the locator positions one places throughout work at one sample rate should without question, or concern, move relative to the session sample rate change just as everything in the MT does. It sure would make using Locators much more useful and quick... as they are meant to be quick reference markers in the first place...... (rant to Bob for a feature update request...... hint, hint. :) ).

Anyway, maybe the Control Track view is what you need to consider using on a regular basis in this kind of project, so that your concerns about the moving regions when sample rate changes are made are aleviated, Ian.

[Dave Labrecque]

Ian,

I had the same thing happen to me yesterday. (playback in multi track, but not in sound file view) I think this started happening to me when I switched over to MME in an effort to have the ability to get the sound file view assignable to my system's integrated audio driver independent from the multitrack output assignment to my Digiface, so that I could have instant playback of sound files that were of a different sample rate than the multitrack's setting.

Maybe not the same thing that you're experiencing, but if it helps to shed any light at all...

[Ian Alexander]

I used to wonder about the shift, too, especially after I'd just created a marked area and then would see the regions change position relative to it. :confused: Now, I just take it in stride if I happen to do something in that kind of order.

CSG will readily insert into a session that's been changed from 48k to 44.1k, but you do need to be concerned about Locate marker positions and marked area when you go to build the tracks..... Personally, I think that any marker references already created at one sample rate should move relative to their original reference points if the sample rate of the session is changed. It's a shock to be sure! :eek:

Myself, I'd do all my editing, mixing, etc., then change the sample rate of the session and set the conversion quality to highest (just to be sure it's been taken care of).... then create any Locator reference points (if that's how you work), insert CSG and make all the CD markers based on my Locator positions in your situation, Ian.

You CAN, however, use the Control track to make your CSG track reference makrs at anytime during the session editing (marked with the Q key) and those positions will move relative to the changing regions when you set the session sample rate from 48k to 44.1k.

I guess I should be using the Control track to do all my markers from now on as well, but that's one more track I always end up needing to move into the common view position in the MT if I want to make frequent, or quick references to it throughout the session work, including to make the CSG track markers. Moving the track up to the front of the MT, or setting up an F-key or two with it in view and saving as a new default view isn't so painful and I could do it if I must, but those options also take up valuable MT viewspace that I'd rather devote to my multi-track needs most of the time.

I still feel the locator positions one places throughout work at one sample rate should without question, or concern, move relative to the session sample rate change just as everything in the MT does. It sure would make using Locators much more useful and quick... as they are meant to be quick reference markers in the first place...... (rant to Bob for a feature update request...... hint, hint. :) ).

Anyway, maybe the Control Track view is what you need to consider using on a regular basis in this kind of project, so that your concerns about the moving regions when sample rate changes are made are aleviated, Ian.
Thanks UTD. All good ideas that may need to be incorporated in a workaround. And certainly good engineering practice if I'm mixing two or more tracks.

I have noticed marked areas are connected to something other than time when changing sample rates, but Location points seem to stick to the same time here. As marked areas are temporary, that's not a big deal, but the Location points seem to work as I think they should.

As for marking the beginning of CD tracks, I very strongly prefer to do it once, in CSG. I can't see the benefit of setting a Location point and then coming back later in CSG to make a new CD track. I think one step is better than two, especially if the cursor is already there. I know I'm channeling Dave LaB a bit here, but I'm comfortable with that. :)

[Ian Alexander]

I got a response from Tech Support on the Lynx forum.

Seems like the sound file playback uses WDM instead of ASIO. There's not likely going to be anything you can do about that. You might just check what the sample rate is that Windows is set to in the Sound Section of Control Panel, and make sure its the same rate as your project rate. You also might see if there's a way the sound file play can occur through a different device (onboard audio) rather then the same card that SAW uses via ASIO.

Any reactions?

I can choose WDM in SS, but it sounds garbled and slow.

[Dave Labrecque]

I got a response from Tech Support on the Lynx forum.

Seems like the sound file playback uses WDM instead of ASIO. There's not likely going to be anything you can do about that. You might just check what the sample rate is that Windows is set to in the Sound Section of Control Panel, and make sure its the same rate as your project rate. You also might see if there's a way the sound file play can occur through a different device (onboard audio) rather then the same card that SAW uses via ASIO.

Any reactions?

I can choose WDM in SS, but it sounds garbled and slow.

So far as I know, the sound file view should be fully capable of playing through an ASIO output. In fact, when that's the driver model selected in Options, you should have no choice but to do it that way. But, I imagine you know this.

Actually, I would find it useful if we could select a different driver model for the sound file view. That way I could have ASIO in the multitrack, and be able to select my on-board sound for the sound file view, enabling me to play oddball sample rates without having to reset the driver or having to settle for no playback at all. But maybe this is been brought up before...

[Bob L]

The ASIO driver works properly in SF view also... the driver has to be set as the master clock and be capable of switching rates when commanded by SAW (since the SF view always plays back at the wav file rate, while the MT can do SRC live on the fly to any rate)... the RME drivers work as expected... some of the older soundcard drivers did not switch rates on the fly... perhaps the Lynx is one of those.

Make sure the Lynx is the master clock and try again.

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

On the Lynx mixer applet, the Preferred Clock Source is Internal.

When I start SS and open a sound file with the same sample rate as last used in SS, it will play. If I open a sound file with a different sample rate and try to play it, I get the warning: No Active Track is assigned to a Valid Output. If I try a second time to play the file, it plays. Why not the first time?

Once I have played anything in the MT, sound files at sample rates different from the MT rate will not play in the SFV. When I try to play the SFV, the MT view begins to play. I don't understand how a problem with the Lynx driver could make a different part of SS begin to play...

Can anyone duplicate this? Or is it just my machine? Or my sound card?

I sure don't know what's under the hood, but it feels like the MT is telling the driver to change sample rate but the SFV is not, or is doing so differently. :confused:

[Bob L]

When you open a soundfile into the SF view and try to play, SS asks the driver to play at the wav file rate... this is the original wav file recorded rate...

The driver will have to be able to switch rates on the fly if the last rate it was playing is different. It seems that the Lynx ASIO driver is not handling that on the first try... therefore the warning message.

Not sure what is happening to force the playback back to the MT, unless you are not noticing that after the message, the active view may become the MT by default... in other words... the SF is disabled after the error.

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

I think I see where you're coming from Bob, but I still don't understand this:

If I open a session set to 44k and play the MT, the MT will play.
If I open a session set to 48k and play the MT, the MT will hesitate for a moment, then play.
If I change the MT sample rate and then play, the MT will hesitate, then play.

So the MT is able to get the Lynx sample rate to change, on the first try.

But the SFV is not, ever.

Is there a difference in how those messages are sent to the driver from the two different windows?

[Bob L]

I thought you just posted in a previous message that the MT would not change rate on the first try...

I'm not sure what might be going on with the Lynx driver.

Testing it here with an RME card works fine.

Bob L

[UpTilDawn]

...I have noticed marked areas are connected to something other than time when changing sample rates, but Location points seem to stick to the same time here. As marked areas are temporary, that's not a big deal, but the Location points seem to work as I think they should...

You are correct for sure....
I thought this as well, but changed my mind :confused: when posting my earlier reply... The reason being that I was testing it quickly on a previous session at a different pc, when I was also in a hurry..... Shouldn't do that and hope for accuracy, I suppose. :rolleyes:

I set the locate points, changed sample rates, saw the cut mark of the region change relative to the cursor and then didn't take the time to check if the locator mark I set actually moved to the cut position again... which I see it does now. What can I say?..... rant to Bob cancelled. :D I see he ignored it anyway. :rolleyes:

[Naturally Digital]

I'm not sure what might be going on with the Lynx driver.

Testing it here with an RME card works fine.Bob, I could ship you an L22 card if you were willing to test this in one of your machines. Or, perhaps the fine folks at Lynx would consider lending you one to avoid the cross-border shipping.

Let me know if you're interested and I'll box one up and send it.

[Bob L]

I may try to get one from Lynx... let me check.

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

I may try to get one from Lynx... let me check.

Bob L

That would be terrific! Let me know if I should second the suggestion. I asked about it on their forum, too, so Paul is aware of the issue. Thanks!