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jfalkner
05-25-2012, 04:46 PM
Hey SAC enthusiasts! I'm looking to build a SAC machine (assuming I can persuade the rest of the team it's the right choice), and I'm looking for input from the SAC forum on my planned system.

The goal: a 32 channel system with 4 main outs (mains, entry way video/audio, "mother's" room video/audio feed, Media Booth audio feed), 5 monitor mixes (going into wedges now, eventually may want to create "aviom-like" setup with windows tablets), and no real worry about recording the audio. Eventually want it upgradable to more channels, so the motherboard was chosen due to being able to accept 3 RayDats based on the layout of the PCIe slots.

The setup is to have this be a "snake-less" setup, with a core SAC "headless" system in the back where our stage cables all come in to the current snake, and to output directly to the monitor and mains ports hardwired back in the same room. The FOH will be a wirelessly connected 32" touchscreen system with a CD player connected wirelessly to the SAC system in back. Here's the specs:

(please give insight on the plan - cost is of great importance, so my specs kept the price under $10,000 and I'd like to try to stay around there)



1 SAC Software License
980W Rackmount UPS
Dedicated Windows XP specialized computer, modified for SAC:

Pentium Core2Duo E8500 with Gigabyte EP45-UD31 motherboard, 4GB of RAM, 30GB ultra fast SSD (2.5Gb/s read/write), XP Pro (modified with SAC recommendations).

4U Rackmount Server Case w/ mini-redundant PSU
1 RME RayDat 32 Channel In / 32 Channel Out ADAT PCIe Controller
TCO Expansion for RayDat to enable WorldClock devices to connect
4 DigiMax FS A/D converters (worldclock sync) for a total of 32 channels of inputs
Aphex 141 ADAT to 8 channel analog output (for monitor mixes, mains, etc.)
20U rack with plexi window
Sennheiser RS210 wireless headphones (connected to SAC in back to allow for FOH headphone mix / solo feature wirelessly)
3M 27” 40 finger multi-touch display (M2767PW)
basic laptop with HDMI out and native HDMI 1920x1080 resolution support (specs really don't matter here, any new laptop and even old ones should be able to run a remote control surface)
custom made roller cart to easily roll sound "control surface" out of the room (touchscreen computer, dedicated separate CD player, wireless RCA transmitter, all on some type of wheeled platform) - this is important because we often use the room for weddings, etc., and they want the sound board out of the middle of the room for their event - it has been one of the biggest complaints of us having the sound technicians in the correct position in the room to mix sound.
wireless RCA unit to connect the CD player in the sound "booth" to the SAC in back.
wireless tablet PC - alternate console for weddings & so the sound tech can mix the monitor mixes on-stage during practice


So, thoughts, everyone?

Brent Evans
05-25-2012, 04:57 PM
That's a nice setup.

You might want to consider different preamps... the M-Audio Profire 2626 sounds very nice and has analog outs, which would save you a bit of money.

jfalkner
05-25-2012, 05:00 PM
Oh, and I'm starting to wonder if the computer will be strong enough to handle adding a few VST plugins for effects on possibly 1/3 of the channels, compressor/limiter on kick, snare, bass, and maybe another 3 or 4 channels, adding noise gates to numerous channels (possibly 2/3rds of the channels), etc.

Also, I've noticed that people are talking about Valhalla DSP, etc., for reverb. What effects/gates/limiters, etc., does SAC come with natively, and what should I be looking to get as "essential" VST plugins for setting up a quality mix (I'm used to having, at a minimum, a reverb effect and a delay effect, and would like quality versions of both at a minimum).

Any insight is greatly appreciated!

jfalkner
05-25-2012, 05:03 PM
That's a nice setup.

You might want to consider different preamps... the M-Audio Profire 2626 sounds very nice and has analog outs, which would save you a bit of money.

Pardon my lack of knowledge in this area, but external pre-amps are not my area of expertise. Are these compatible with the RayDat cards (lightpipe)?

AntonZ
05-25-2012, 05:39 PM
Oh, and I'm starting to wonder if the computer will be strong enough to handle adding a few VST plugins for effects on possibly 1/3 of the channels, compressor/limiter on kick, snare, bass, and maybe another 3 or 4 channels, adding noise gates to numerous channels (possibly 2/3rds of the channels), etc.

Also, I've noticed that people are talking about Valhalla DSP, etc., for reverb. What effects/gates/limiters, etc., does SAC come with natively, and what should I be looking to get as "essential" VST plugins for setting up a quality mix (I'm used to having, at a minimum, a reverb effect and a delay effect, and would like quality versions of both at a minimum).

SAC comes with 5 band full parametric EQ, gate and compressor on every channel strip. So there's no need for additional plugins for that on the inputs. Two excellent plugins come with SAC: a 7ch full parametric EQ and a delay. The build-in "effects" on the channel strips as well as the plugins from RML sound very good and are extremely CPU friendly.

I would recommend getting the additional RML plugins right away:
RML Studio Levelizer is a very transparent yet effective compressor/limiter.
RML Studio Reverb is a CPU friendly verb.
RML Frequency Analyzer is an RTA plugin.

The RML plugins have the additional benefit of being remotable (except for the reverb).

A well configured system with Core2Duo E8500 processor will easily do 32ch, several monitor mixes and your intended plugins.

You may want to download the demos and give it a go, if only just to get a feel for what's available on the console and through the RML plug-ins.

Brent Evans
05-25-2012, 05:47 PM
Pardon my lack of knowledge in this area, but external pre-amps are not my area of expertise. Are these compatible with the RayDat cards (lightpipe)?

Yes. They are technically firewire interfaces, but you can make them run as ADAT I/O preamps connected to your ADAT interface (mine are connected to a MOTU card). All you have to do is plug them into a firewire port and use the M-Audio control software to put them in that mode, and set them to slave clocking.

Using preamps like this one will allow you to go without wordclock cables also, as there is a digital path in and out of each box through the ADAT connection. Dropping the WC cable is a benefit both in cost and system complexity... it's one of the more aggravating parts of digital audio.

jfalkner
05-25-2012, 06:24 PM
Yes. They are technically firewire interfaces, but you can make them run as ADAT I/O preamps connected to your ADAT interface (mine are connected to a MOTU card). All you have to do is plug them into a firewire port and use the M-Audio control software to put them in that mode, and set them to slave clocking.

Using preamps like this one will allow you to go without wordclock cables also, as there is a digital path in and out of each box through the ADAT connection. Dropping the WC cable is a benefit both in cost and system complexity... it's one of the more aggravating parts of digital audio.

So if I went with these interfaces, how would I hook them up to the RayDats then? This also necessitates getting a firewire card for the computer - I don't think the motherboards that support the older E8500 CPU that have enough PCIe slots for expansion that I've seen had built in firewire.

Haven't some people had latency issues with firewire controlled units? Also, if I go this route, will I run into issues when I want to increase to 64 channels, or will I still be able to just slap another RayDat (or similar) into the PC, add some new preamps, and be good to go?

Paul Henry
05-25-2012, 06:37 PM
The Profires will connect to the Raydat optically, and will run fine as 8 channel optical i/o. The catch is that they don't have physical controls for all the functions, many of the settings are done in software, over firewire. So all though you don't need them to be connected to firewire all the time, you will need to use it to set them up initially, and if you ever want to change settings.

A good compromise is to get a firewire equipped laptop to use as a SAC remote, and just use that if you need to tweak any settings. As a bonus you can also run a smaller more portable SAC backup system with the laptop and 24 channels of i/o over firewire.

gdougherty
05-26-2012, 08:41 PM
On a Profire, FireWire is a one time connection to set the standalone options and then you never have to plug it back in. It runs as a standalone Adat i/o unit from then on.
Skip the e8500. It's outdated and there's no good reason to spec a new sac rig with one. The i3 or i5 are generally cheaper these days and are faster clock for clock compared to the core2duo. Get a motherboard with 3-4 pcie slots so you've got room to move them around in case one doesn't play well with other system components.

The other good option would be to go with MOTU interfaces and build your inputs in blocks of 24. You'd need two to get 32 channels, but then you just add more preamps to grow to 48 channels until you'd need to add a third. Bonus is that the same pcie card will support 4 rackmount interfaces and a second pcie card could go in a backup computer allowing for quick replacement of a problematic host.

RBIngraham
05-27-2012, 11:31 PM
Keep in mind that the Digimax FS is no longer made. So if you wanted to go that route it would have to be on eBay, buying used or some clearance stock if there is any left.

Mattseymour
05-28-2012, 04:10 AM
I'd go for a Core i3 or i5 CPU. Much more powerful. The most modest i3 is faster (and cheaper to buy new) than the core2, but everything else on the system is quicker too, plus the integrated graphics work just fine with SAC in my experience.

Your UPS seems very big. You could save some money there. I presume you're only really interested in this supporting the the SAC host and converters.

I've got two fairly basic UPS units, one for the host end and one for the converters, both will run for at least 20 minutes. If you lose power for longer than that, SAC going down is the least of your worries ;)

Mattseymour
05-28-2012, 04:13 AM
On the subject of wireless tablets... I've owned one, sold it. Hopeless.

SAC is not sufficiently touch friendly. Touch on windows is hopelessly inaccurate.

You have already have one, and be happy with it. But I'd steer well clear to be honest.

Many folks here, myself included, are wanting the ability to control SAC from iPad/Android (personally Android as it's cheaper) and there's good reason for that, both are systems designed for touch, unlike windows which just seems to turn the precise reported touch point into mouse movements, with no intelligence. It's just hopeless.

RBIngraham
05-28-2012, 05:48 AM
On the subject of wireless tablets... I've owned one, sold it. Hopeless.

SAC is not sufficiently touch friendly. Touch on windows is hopelessly inaccurate.

You have already have one, and be happy with it. But I'd steer well clear to be honest.

Many folks here, myself included, are wanting the ability to control SAC from iPad/Android (personally Android as it's cheaper) and there's good reason for that, both are systems designed for touch, unlike windows which just seems to turn the precise reported touch point into mouse movements, with no intelligence. It's just hopeless.

And it probably doesn't help any that SAC is not really designed for touch operation. Yeah it's got it's little add ons that let you use touch screens and the like, but when you shrink it down to a tablet sized device the UI really needs to be designed specifically for that ala the apps from Yamaha, Presonus, etc... which make them easy to manipulate and jump around from section to section and such.

jfalkner
05-28-2012, 08:50 AM
On the subject of wireless tablets... I've owned one, sold it. Hopeless.

SAC is not sufficiently touch friendly. Touch on windows is hopelessly inaccurate.

You have already have one, and be happy with it. But I'd steer well clear to be honest.

Many folks here, myself included, are wanting the ability to control SAC from iPad/Android (personally Android as it's cheaper) and there's good reason for that, both are systems designed for touch, unlike windows which just seems to turn the precise reported touch point into mouse movements, with no intelligence. It's just hopeless.


What would you think of using a touchscreen laptop for "gross" control (selecting a channel, for example) and then use one of these for more fine-control stuff like controlling the fader levels, etc.:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=audio+control+surface&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=zI3&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&biw=1366&bih=668&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=7329944344560183100&sa=X&ei=i53DT-GQAoLf0QHCy8WmCg&ved=0COABEPMCMAY4Cg

I could mount this all in a single hand-held "slate" so to speak, and it might give enough control overall. Just looking for thoughts, because remotely controlling the mix is of great importance to me (to help get the wedge monitor mixes crystal clear and well balanced for the musicians).

jfalkner
05-28-2012, 08:52 AM
And it probably doesn't help any that SAC is not really designed for touch operation. Yeah it's got it's little add ons that let you use touch screens and the like, but when you shrink it down to a tablet sized device the UI really needs to be designed specifically for that ala the apps from Yamaha, Presonus, etc... which make them easy to manipulate and jump around from section to section and such.

Is it "designed" for the 3M touchscreens? Does it work well if your touchscreen is multitouch and 27" or larger? It seemed pretty responsive on the 22" 3M in their youtube demo video, but seemed slightly cramped. I expected a 27" would reduce or eliminate the cramped issue and the system would be really usable with only a touchscreen.

jfalkner
05-28-2012, 08:57 AM
I'd go for a Core i3 or i5 CPU. Much more powerful. The most modest i3 is faster (and cheaper to buy new) than the core2, but everything else on the system is quicker too, plus the integrated graphics work just fine with SAC in my experience.

Your UPS seems very big. You could save some money there. I presume you're only really interested in this supporting the the SAC host and converters.

I've got two fairly basic UPS units, one for the host end and one for the converters, both will run for at least 20 minutes. If you lose power for longer than that, SAC going down is the least of your worries ;)

I had trouble figuring out how much power I needed to support a 5-10 minute power outage with a mini-redundant 680w rack mount power supply, 4 ADAT controllers, a wireless headphone system, and a wireless RCA receiver (our CD audio will be wirelessly transmitted from the FOH control surface - wireless because the #1 feature request for any new system was the ability for a lay person to be able to remove the sound booth from the main room when the room is used for weddings, receptions, etc, and they don't want to use our sound system).

I assumed with a 680w power supply and the other items I mentioned, I'd need an 800w - 1000w UPS minimum, and at that level, I couldn't find anything smaller that was reasonably priced.

So what UPS would you recommend for powering 750-800w (~110v) of equipment for 10-15 minutes?

jfalkner
05-28-2012, 09:23 AM
Keep in mind that the Digimax FS is no longer made. So if you wanted to go that route it would have to be on eBay, buying used or some clearance stock if there is any left.

Thanks, I think I'll look into the OctoPre Mk II's based on everyone's comments. Having all of the ADAT units running both in and out sounds nice, and I've seen good reviews on them, and they're only about $550-$650 (vs. my current $400 per unit expectation). Anyone have opinions on these vs. Profire vs MOTU?

I've heard a lot of synching issues can happen with the MOTUs with firewire, and I really want PCIe due to the lower latency I've read about using PCIe vs firewire. The MOTUs seem reasonably priced (32 channels with my current plan using a RayDat and 4 Digimax FS units was $2600, MOTU PCIe = $1400 for a 24 I/O core with 424 card and another $1200 for the second 24 I/O unit, so I get more bang for the same buck), but the systems seem to have 1/4" in/outs so I'd need a hefty amount of converters to get my XLRs on the stage converted to 1/4", right?

jfalkner
05-28-2012, 09:47 AM
So after much research and reading through everyone's suggestions, I think I'm tentatively changing my setup to the following:



1 SAC Software License
980W Rackmount UPS (some say this is too powerful... would love suggestions, considering my 680W rackmount redundant PSU)
Dedicated Windows 7 32 bit Pro specialized computer, modified for SAC:

i3 (due to cost constraints - will upgrade to i5 or i7 when budget allows) with P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3 motherboard, 4GB of RAM, 30GB ultra fast SSD (2.5Gb/s read/write), Win 7 32 bit Pro (modified with SAC recommendations).


4U Rackmount Server Case w/ mini-redundant 680W PSU
MOTU 24I/O w/424 card + MOTU 24I/O expansion unit for 48 channels in and out
20U rack with plexi window
Sennheiser RS210 wireless headphones (connected to SAC in back to allow for FOH headphone mix / solo feature wirelessly)
3M 27***8221; 40 finger multi-touch display (M2767PW)
basic laptop with HDMI out and native HDMI 1920x1080 resolution support (specs really don't matter here, any new laptop and even old ones should be able to run a remote control surface)
custom made roller cart to easily roll sound "control surface" (the basic laptop with 27" 3M touchscreen attached, a dedicated separate CD player, wireless RCA transmitter for the CD player, all on some type of wheeled platform, probably a standard rackmount with castor wheels) - this is important because we often use the room for weddings, etc., and they want the sound board out of the middle of the room for their event - it has been one of the biggest complaints of us having the sound technicians in the correct position in the room to mix sound.
wireless RCA unit to connect the CD player in the sound "booth" to the SAC in back.
wireless tablet/laptop PC - alternate console for weddings & so the sound tech can mix the monitor mixes on-stage during practice



Some had encouraged 120GB SSD, but I don't see the value of the extra space since Windows7 only needs 16GB of space for the 32 bit version, and we don't intend to ever record to this machine, leaving us 14GB of space for SAC and plugins (since I will be turning off SWAP, no need for SWAP space) - if I find the price to be the same, I'll probably get the extra space just because, but if the 30GB SSD with the high read/write can't be roughly matched in price by the larger ones, then to me it says don't waste money on the unneeded upgrade.


Also, some encouraged older touchscreen laptops - when I said "wireless tablet PC" I meant a laptop that has a screen that can fold down to be a tablet, so I get best of both worlds. I am also (As I mentioned in another post) considering getting a Korg Nanokontrol2 Slim-Line USB Control Surface to attach to the laptop/tablet for finer control (I'd custom build a case for holding it all for easy mobility, would love thoughts on that).




So, guys, thoughts on the updated system specs? The price is still roughly the same, a few hundred more at most, so I'm happy with that, and the core computer has room to be upgraded (more powerful processors are available) so I'm happy with that too. My only concern is I've not included anything cost wise for handling the MOTUs 1/4" only inputs to enable XLR inputs easily, so I'd like thoughts on that... do I just get 48 "1/4" to XLR" cables for ~$250 and a 48 channels in XLR patchbay(s) ($~350?) to enable rackmounting and easy swapping of channels without wearing out the MOTU 1/4" jacks?

I'm about to pitch this to our church elders, so the price needs to be semi-accurate, and I don't want to miss an important piece of the puzzle.





Thank you, everyone, for your extremely valuable input! :D

Paul Henry
05-28-2012, 10:45 AM
A UPS is a good idea for short duration black/brownouts, it will give you time to make sure everything is saved and prevent accidental "kicked out the plug" shutdowns. But for longer blackouts will the amps, speakers, and stage gear have backup power too? Because even if the host is up and running, no power to the speakers and stage = no show.

RBIngraham
05-28-2012, 01:11 PM
The MOTU 24I/O is line level only. It has no mic preamps. Either you need preamps with line outputs to use this unit, or you get a pair of 2408 MK3 units to use with mic preamps with ADAT A-D. You can use the analog outputs on the 2408 for your outputs if you like. And save some money. I use them with the Presonus D8 (which is still in production) These are inputs only units. They are mic preamps to an ADAT output. Or you just get one D to A unit for some additional outputs.

The 2408s with a 424 card are about the most economical way to get large channel counts for SAC.

Mattseymour
05-28-2012, 02:46 PM
As Richard has said, you need preamps. I've got an older 24i interface and bought three of the el cheapo sm audio pr8e. What's nice about the MOTU system is the ability to mix and match the interfaces with no driver worries.

Regarding the ups, the wattage of your computer PSU is largely irrelevant; that's how much power it can supply (theoretically) and at that demand would draw much more at the socket. My clarkdale i3 take about 56watts at the socket idle and maxes out around 110w when it's flat out. Your entire sac rack won't draw more than about 200w at full CPU load, which you shouldn't ever see, in which case you could get away with a very compact 500va ups. Here in the UK that's the difference between ***163;75ish vs well over***163;380 for the 1440va you're proposing.

Bottom line is overspeccing is fine, but it's bigger, heavier and has greater battery replacement service cost, and you don't need it.

Best to buy the ups last, spec a unit to provide the power your finished rack actually need, plus a healthy margin.

Also a redundant server style PSU is a nice idea for reliability; you don't need more than 350w for your proposed system. You may not get a redundant supplythats smaller but do look. Big PSUs are not necessarily better. Usually theyre much less efficient well outside optimum loading.

Mattseymour
05-28-2012, 02:53 PM
What would you think of using a touchscreen laptop for "gross" control (selecting a channel, for example) and then use one of these for more fine-control stuff like controlling the fader levels, etc.:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=audio+control+surface&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=zI3&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&biw=1366&bih=668&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=7329944344560183100&sa=X&ei=i53DT-GQAoLf0QHCy8WmCg&ved=0COABEPMCMAY4Cg

I could mount this all in a single hand-held "slate" so to speak, and it might give enough control overall. Just looking for thoughts, because remotely controlling the mix is of great importance to me (to help get the wedge monitor mixes crystal clear and well balanced for the musicians).

It might work. I wanted to do just that with my setup and bought a quality capacitance touchscreen. Unfortunately it's got a 3m controller which sac recognises and tries to address with the multitouch driver. However mine isn't multitouch so it doesn't work at all. I'm hopeful Bob's going to put a micro touch toggle on the next version so I can actually try it out.

I'm increasingly convinced that touch and the sac interface are not happy partners, but I might be convinced otherwise by a physically large enough screen at sufficiently low res for accurate control.

Paul Henry
05-28-2012, 03:51 PM
.... Just looking for thoughts, because remotely controlling the mix is of great importance to me (to help get the wedge monitor mixes crystal clear and well balanced for the musicians).

A lot of guys just use a Windows 10" Netbook for wireless remote stage tweaking duty.

gdougherty
05-28-2012, 05:48 PM
I have a 15" widescreen laptop that does 1920x1080 as my remote and love it. At FOH I want the largest on screen channel count I can manage. Touchscreen isn't worth it to me. I'd put the money toward some physical faders. I tend to tweak initially and pull my eq and dynamics settings together then use the fader pack to mix once I've got that set. I've tried sac on a modern 23" 1920x1080 touch unit and didn't find it usable for fine control beyond the channel fader on the z mixer.

I have a 1500va ups in my rack and it saved my bacon on a generator that was supplying too low a voltage. Ups kept kicking over to battery but never died. I'm an Overspec'ing type of guy though for that reason. I run a high quality non-redundant 750W power supply and carry a spare. I'd rather have a redundant supply but they aren't cheap. If I were building one for a church install though, I'd go redundant. Go ahead and buy a spare module now though since you. Ever know if they'll still be available when you lose one.

I'll second the 2408, you can find them used for very reasonable prices. Pick up how many ever Profires or Octopre's as you need to fit your channel count. Only advantage to a 24 I/o would be the potential for 96K operation if you wanted to go there.

Mattseymour
05-29-2012, 12:50 AM
I have a 1500va ups in my rack and it saved my bacon on a generator that was supplying too low a voltage. Ups kept kicking over to battery but never died. I'm an Overspec'ing type of guy though for that reason.

I think if you're running on generators that's very wise. But this is for a mains powered static install that I would presume isn't generator backed up. You only need something that can help with brownouts and a short blackout from a mains trip or very short building supply interruption. Supporting SAC for 30 mins is pretty pointless if the lights have gone out, and the amps are dead.

If you want to over spec, then rather than a UPS with big batteries and long runtime, which is a waste of money imho, consider an online UPS. These usually have true sinewave inverters, rather than the 'modified sine wave' or square wave of most others (which can cause problems with some linear power supplies) and run through the inverter at all times. Even the best line-interactive UPS will take some time to put the inverter in circuit and fully stabilise. An online UPS protects you from every mains spike and flutter and presents a beautiful sinewave mains voltage to your kit.

Probably still overkill unless you've got a dodgy mains supply.

My point about the computer power supply still stands. The big wattage PSUs are a total waste of money. They're for gamers with graphics cards that could heat your house, or servers with 30 hard drives. The idea that reserve capacity is a good thing does hold water, but a PSU designed to provide 700w, on a system that draws about 60w will be quite inefficient. Also, buying a quality PSU is far more important than capacity. A quality unit, correctly specified is far far better than a big number mega gamer PSU.

stoven
05-29-2012, 06:58 AM
Another recommendation here for the M-Audio Profire 2626 units. They work well as a 26 channel bi-directional firewire interface (good for smaller rigs up to 24 channels) OR as standalone converters connected via lightpipe to something like the RME RAYDAT cards. I haven't gone to the RAYDAT yet but will soon.

At the moment I'm running three of the Profire 2626 units (1x connected to the PC via firewire, 2x connected via lightpipe to the first unit). Seems to work well so far.

I was kind of on the fence about these units but so far have not been disappointed. My only complaints would be no real "metering" on inputs and no individually switchable phantom power. Also (could be good or bad depending on how you look at it) line inputs bypass the gain and preamp section entirely. I do like the fact that each input has a physical 20 dB pad and up to 70 dB of gain. There are lots of good choices out there but this one seems to be the best "bang for the buck" as far as I have found. MOTU also has some very good options but you'll pay more for them in order to get the same number of A/D and D/A channels in the same converter.

If you don't think you'll ever use the firewire interface (handy for emergencies or smaller rigs) then go with something like the ART Tubeopto 8 or Focusrite Octopre MKii converters coupled to the RME RAYDAT cards.

--
Shane Toven
Lead Sound Tech
Harvest Christian Center
Laramie, Wyoming

gdougherty
05-29-2012, 07:58 AM
I think if you're running on generators that's very wise. But this is for a mains powered static install that I would presume isn't generator backed up. You only need something that can help with brownouts and a short blackout from a mains trip or very short building supply interruption. Supporting SAC for 30 mins is pretty pointless if the lights have gone out, and the amps are dead.

If you want to over spec, then rather than a UPS with big batteries and long runtime, which is a waste of money imho, consider an online UPS. These usually have true sinewave inverters, rather than the 'modified sine wave' or square wave of most others (which can cause problems with some linear power supplies) and run through the inverter at all times. Even the best line-interactive UPS will take some time to put the inverter in circuit and fully stabilise. An online UPS protects you from every mains spike and flutter and presents a beautiful sinewave mains voltage to your kit.

Probably still overkill unless you've got a dodgy mains supply.

My point about the computer power supply still stands. The big wattage PSUs are a total waste of money. They're for gamers with graphics cards that could heat your house, or servers with 30 hard drives. The idea that reserve capacity is a good thing does hold water, but a PSU designed to provide 700w, on a system that draws about 60w will be quite inefficient. Also, buying a quality PSU is far more important than capacity. A quality unit, correctly specified is far far better than a big number mega gamer PSU.

All the online UPS's I've seen are in the 1000VA range or larger and decent ones start about $600US. Just as a side note.

Agree on the quality of a system PS. Being oversized just gives more headroom on top of quality. On my home rig, I've been running the same PS for about 8 years now 24/7 with periodic cleanings when I upgrade other system components. It's gone from a 2ghz p4 to a 3.1ghz i5 2400 in a few iterations. Constant usage does help prolong life vs on and off heat fluctuations, but anecdotally its been good for me. My home rig is only a 550W.

ssrsound
05-29-2012, 08:08 AM
http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-OR1500LCDRM2U-Smart-Intelligent-Green/dp/B000XJNOXI/ref=sr_1_28?ie=UTF8&qid=1338303855&sr=8-28

$323 for a 1500va rackmount unit.

The Cyberpower ones have done fantastically for me -- they generate a good sine wave at 120 all the time, and there is no interruption at all when a generator dips below or when the power cuts out -- just a beep.

I've got a 1U unit. But they're heavy enough, 1U vs 2U doesn't make much difference.. it's going to be a heavy box.

gdougherty
05-29-2012, 08:09 AM
Quick note on profire 2626's toggling between FireWire and standalone usage.

The standalone settings do not get read off the unit if you connect it to a new machine. Instead they default to M-audio's driver default which is to pass analog inputs to analog outs instead of operating as DA/AD for ADAT i/o. If you're using them for ADAT i/o in standalone mode, you'll want to double check them after connecting via FireWire. Once you set it on a computer, the M-audio drivers do seem to save your preferences and you don't need to worry about it again. I don't know that they save individual preferences for units, so if for some reason you have a mix of operating modes it may require more attention to detail.

jfalkner
05-29-2012, 08:46 AM
Thanks everyone for the input.

I thought I was missing something with the MOTUs - it just seemed too good to be true ;-)

So, budget brings me back to the single RayDat with ADAT pres of some kind for AD/DA conversion.

Most likely I will get the Focusrite Octopre MKii units. I want to stay away from the ADA8000 units - Behringer are known for their low price, but I rate their gear as a C+, good for low budget items, but I'd not want it for an expensive system like this. Also, this is a completely fixed installation with rack mounted to the wall in the back, so I won't need the firewire feature of the 2626 units. If I want a portable system, we'll buy separate hardware and a separate SAC license for that system.


In response to the comments about mini-redundant power supply, I had found that my home power supplies seem to last longer when they aren't required to run at full load all the time (e.g. if 150w in equipment under the hood, 300w power supply lasts longer than a 180w). Equipment dying quickly is exactly what I don't want on this system.

That being said, I could get one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Dynapower-TC-300R8-Single-Redundant-Supply/dp/B007WLR6FM/ref=sr_1_51?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1338305595&sr=1-51
and this case:
http://www.amazon.com/Norco-RPC-430-Rackmount-Server-External/dp/B0080REI5I/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1338305710&sr=1-7

for far less than price I was going to pay for the 680w... I'm just concerned a 300w isn't powerful enough, and I can't find anyone who sells replacement swap supplies for this unit (or any of the other units I've looked at) so I'd have to buy a second whole unit to get replacement parts... seems odd you can't buy just the swap part on these (as far as I can find).



As to the UPS, live and learn... had no idea a 680w power supply doesn't actually pull 680w at the wall (never have run a test on actual power consumption, never really cared before this project). Also, though you are correct that it's nearly "pointless" to keep SAC on when everything else dies because you lose sound regardless, the thing is, our building gets brownouts all the time, and when we have blackouts, they are often 5-10 minutes in length (the power in our church's neighborhood is really unreliable), so it would be nice to not have to shut down the system until 10 minutes have passed just in case the power comes on in that window. Being up immediately would be yet another "wow" moment for the elders and staff, encouraging them to allow other improvements I've been suggesting and they've been hesitant to implement due to worries the equipment won't remain stable over the long term.

jfalkner
05-29-2012, 10:55 AM
http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-OR1500LCDRM2U-Smart-Intelligent-Green/dp/B000XJNOXI/ref=sr_1_28?ie=UTF8&qid=1338303855&sr=8-28

$323 for a 1500va rackmount unit.

The Cyberpower ones have done fantastically for me -- they generate a good sine wave at 120 all the time, and there is no interruption at all when a generator dips below or when the power cuts out -- just a beep.

I've got a 1U unit. But they're heavy enough, 1U vs 2U doesn't make much difference.. it's going to be a heavy box.

Thanks! This is 65***37; cheaper than the one I was looking at, same basic specs, and good reviews, so much appreciated.

jlklein
05-29-2012, 11:55 AM
Thanks! This is 65% cheaper than the one I was looking at, same basic specs, and good reviews, so much appreciated.

Biggest thing to remember with UPS units is get one with a pure sine wave output, not a stepped sine wave. The Cyberpower units are probably your best bang/buck in a pure sine wave output box and have gotten good reviews from the various SAC users who have them.

Jeff

jfalkner
05-29-2012, 01:36 PM
Anyone have a preference between the Focusrite Octopre MKii vs Focusrite Octopre MKii Dynamic? Is it worth the extra $100 per unit to have built in compression on the input, or is it better to just save the money and keep the pre-amps set to a lower level to avoid peaks?

jfalkner
05-29-2012, 01:41 PM
Biggest thing to remember with UPS units is get one with a pure sine wave output, not a stepped sine wave. The Cyberpower units are probably your best bang/buck in a pure sine wave output box and have gotten good reviews from the various SAC users who have them.

Jeff

The recommended rackmount unit didn't explicitly state it was sine wave or not. I see identical specs for a non-rackmount version for $100 cheaper than that and it explicitly states it's pure sinewave.... any reason not to go with this one (besides it not being rack-mountable)?

http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP1500PFCLCD-Compatible-1500VA-Tower/dp/B00429N19W/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t

ssrsound
05-29-2012, 01:55 PM
On Cyberpower, "AVR" is what you're looking for. That's their name for
Active Voltage Regulation, where its generating a sine wave at 120 no matter what voltage comes in... and that's the feature that all the other brands charge a whole bunch more for.

the one you're looking at is fine. I suspect the price difference is because its not rackmount.


As to...

Also, though you are correct that it's nearly "pointless" to keep SAC on when everything else dies because you lose sound regardless

When your speakers and amp brown out, they come back very fast. A computer takes a while to boot... then you have to load SAC... then you have to set it all up again. That's a lot of time -- you really don't want your computer to crash. So I consider a UPS almost essential for SAC. I've had it happen before, and I was really happy that we only had 2 minutes without music (how long it took the speakers to come back up) rather than 15 minutes of me frantically trying to get the mix back up again.

Brent Evans
05-29-2012, 03:20 PM
Anyone have a preference between the Focusrite Octopre MKii vs Focusrite Octopre MKii Dynamic? Is it worth the extra $100 per unit to have built in compression on the input, or is it better to just save the money and keep the pre-amps set to a lower level to avoid peaks?

That's not the only difference. the mkII doesn't have DA converters, so no outputs from SAC. The mkII Dynamic is suitable. The compressors might be OK if implemented very gently to reduce clipping, but you have all the compression you need in SAC otherwise.

jlklein
05-29-2012, 04:39 PM
On Cyberpower, "AVR" is what you're looking for. That's their name for Active Voltage Regulation, where its generating a sine wave at 120 no matter what voltage comes in... and that's the feature that all the other brands charge a whole bunch more for.

the one you're looking at is fine. I suspect the price difference is because its not rackmount.

I'm pretty sure the AVR, while a desirable feature, doesn't have anything to do with whether it's a pure sine wave or not. The "pure sinewave" feature is what you need to look for to avoid the "stepped sinewave" that computers and sensitive electronics don't like.

The SmartApp Online and Sinewave models and the PFC models are the pure sine wave featured models from Cyberpower, and all include AVR as well. The SmartApp Online system in particular is "always on", i.e. even when plugged in you're running off the UPS-produced AVR-adjusted pure sine-wave, so there's no switching required if you lose power.

The "tower" models are all cheaper than their rack mount counterparts, as they don't have the size restrictions, metal casing and more rugged construction typical of a rack mounted device over one that sits in your living room. Nothing wrong with them, though.


When your speakers and amp brown out, they come back very fast. A computer takes a while to boot... then you have to load SAC... then you have to set it all up again. That's a lot of time -- you really don't want your computer to crash. So I consider a UPS almost essential for SAC.

As would most, as this is an excellent point. We had a DJ at our local CF fundraising walk running off a borrowed generator that started stalling every so often but immediately starting up again. The DJ system went out each time, but he was on a laptop and analog DJ mixer (pretty much a UPS scenario), so since his laptop kept running on battery like a PC would in a UPS scenario, he was only down for the 10-15 seconds the QSC K12's took to start up again each time. That would have been painful had it been much longer.

Jeff

gdougherty
05-29-2012, 07:55 PM
Price and feature-wise I'd go with Profire's over Focusrites for a church install. There aren't any buttons to accidentally change the function of the analog outputs and there aren't any compressor knobs in addition to gain that might confuse people. If you buy a batch the Profires can easily be had for $550 or less.
I also wouldn't be afraid of used MOTU gear instead of the RayDAT. The only times I wouldn't are if rack space is at a premium and if you don't expect to be pushing more than 32 channels anytime soon. For our church install the RayDAT was and is the best option. For my rig, 40-48 channels would be really nice and 24 channels would frequently suffice. I went with a RayDAT initially and now I'd rather have 24 channels in the host rack and a 24 channel expansion block for when I need it. Cost-wise for a 48 channel system the MOTU is in-line or less expensive than the RayDAT option. Above that, the RayDAT would gain an advantage again though it loses out in flexible modularity.

AntonZ
05-30-2012, 12:41 PM
For power supplies: don't trust any brand name. Instead, look for user experiences for the specific model you are interested in. I have had big name power supplies go bad, taking the whole system with it (yes, main board, cpu, memory all giving the once in a system lifetime magic smoke). At first I was somewhat surprised. Searching the web I learned many people shared similar experiences with that specific model. Many people only look at power rating (watts) and a big name. You don't need big power for a SAC/SAW machine as others said. You do want the power to be clean and reliable.

Take the cover off at least once a year and vacuum out all the accumulated dust from power supply, processor cooler and the various heat sinks on the main board. More often when the system runs long hours, 24/7 or in dusty environments. Don't put the pc in the bottom position in your rack. That's where the dust sits on the floor, it would get sucked right in.

jfalkner
05-30-2012, 05:36 PM
For power supplies: don't trust any brand name. Instead, look for user experiences for the specific model you are interested in. I have had big name power supplies go bad, taking the whole system with it (yes, main board, cpu, memory all giving the once in a system lifetime magic smoke).

Thank you for the advice. I found it interesting that I saw hundreds of options for power supplies, but only 3 had reviews out of the 100+ I looked at, and of those, two units were utter crap according to the reviews. I've settled on this power supply:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338047&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Server+-+Power+Supplies-_-Athena+Power-_-17338047

500w is still more power than I need, but since it's the ONLY mini-redundant supply I've found that had positive reviews (and they were 90% positive), I don't feel safe going with anything else.

AntonZ
05-30-2012, 11:42 PM
That looks like a solid ps to me. Do keep in mind where you will be using/installing the rig, as one of the reviews says it is rather noisy:


"It sounds like it belongs in a server room(hi-speed fans). Something to keep in mind depending on where you are going to place this."

Goforth_Audio
05-31-2012, 12:41 AM
I fell in love with my MOTU gear. Regarding your build- 2408mk1 can easily be found on ebay for 150-300 easily. So estimate 72 channels of 24bit 48kHz audio at $600. The pcie 424 card is I think $250 new and you can often find older pci 424 cards under $80 but only if you use XP. Read the MOTU 424 compatibility pages to understand the different cards. It is easy to confuse pcie, pci, and pcix. So read before you buy. So we are at $850. Then you need pre-amps with ADAT because the 2408mk1's have three adat ports and only 8 phono i/o's (which is nice for consumer gear.) Only 24 i/o's at one time though. The focusrite octopre mkII can be found around $400-500 I think. But it lacks DA converters. Behringer's ADA800 around $200. For 64 channels $1600. SO that is about $2500 for 68 I/O's to SAC. ART optube interfaces are about $400 so then you have about $5000 for 68 I/O's. But you have a gain and a saturation knob to fret over.
If you use the MOTU 24IO they are about $1000 each and $3000 would get you 72 I/O's. The outputs are BALANCED 1/4" so you do NOT need a transformer just an adapter for xlr's or a patch panel could be wired for that. SMpro Audio's pr8e is around $200, Octopre mkII $500 and they come with 1/4 outs so you just need some balanced patch cables and only use adapters for the 24io's outputs. But with the 24io you have the flexibility to use any pre-amp. So you might consider a few premium channels for key performers. SO $2000 to $6000 in this scenario for pre-amps. So a simple plan would be $5000-$10,000. For all the channels you want.
You could start with 2 2408 mkI's and 4 Behringer AD8000's for under $1500. Or a 2408 MkI and a 24IO with 2 ADA8000's and 2 Octopre's for $2800. With a set up like this you would have room for 16 more channels of pre-amps. So upgrades are easy. But I recommend the 2408 mkII because it has balanced I/O's.
Or If you like ADAT at 24/48 get the 2408 mkI's and a pcie card for about $1000-1500 and then get any ADAT pre-amps you like. And still have room for one more MOTU interface!
I am giving this advice because MOTU can get confusing. For the record I still have two original RME digi9652 cards w/wordclock. They were rock solid interfaces but I have switched to MOTU and have a 2408mkIII, a 24io w/black lion mod and a 1296. I plan to get Octopre mkII's and the Appsys remote gain controller ($400.) I just want to control my pre-amp gain from my PC without needing a monitor tech to help me. I have an Octpre Platinum with dynamics and I agree it would probably just confuse people with too many knobs. And the stupid thing does not recall it bit rate settings on power up. It sounds better than my ADA8000 especially when you need to turn up the gain. And the dynamics are easy to adjust musically. Just not in your situation. It is too easy to squash the life out of a signal by a newbie, try mixing that. The SAC compressors are so easy to grab I don't really see the point in adding to confusion.
One big advantage the 9652 cards has is that they power up with the computer. With MOTU if you don't power up an interface your computer can't see it until you turn it on and refresh your asio driver. So keep your MOTU and your PC on the same switch. Problem solved.
Well my rant is over. Good luck and keep us updated.
P.S. do your own research to verify my figures.
P.P.S. I wish I had your budget, or any budget at all.
P.P.P.S. I don't think my core2duo could handle 60 inputs with FX well. Get a core i3-2130(or whatever the core i3 fastest chip is called) as a minimum. It's worth it.

RBIngraham
05-31-2012, 07:46 AM
P.P.P.S. I don't think my core2duo could handle 60 inputs with FX well. Get a core i3-2130(or whatever the core i3 fastest chip is called) as a minimum. It's worth it.

I do 50+ inputs, plus effects, plus a handful of monitor mixers all the time on my Core 2 Duo with no problems. Sometimes the SAC load will be 50% or more, but I don't see that as an issue. Works fine.

The key is to use things efficiently. (true with just about any CPU frankly) Don't have separate EQ and Dynamics on every monitor console, don't replicated reverbs across numerous monitor consoles, etc...

gdougherty
05-31-2012, 08:00 AM
I fell in love with my MOTU gear. Regarding your build- 2408mk1 can easily be found on ebay for 150-300 easily. So estimate 72 channels of 24bit 48kHz audio at $600. The pcie 424 card is I think $250 new and you can often find older pci 424 cards under $80 but only if you use XP. Read the MOTU 424 compatibility pages to understand the different cards. It is easy to confuse pcie, pci, and pcix. So read before you buy. So we are at $850. Then you need pre-amps with ADAT because the 2408mk1's have three adat ports and only 8 phono i/o's (which is nice for consumer gear.) Only 24 i/o's at one time though. The focusrite octopre mkII can be found around $400-500 I think. But it lacks DA converters. Behringer's ADA800 around $200. For 64 channels $1600. SO that is about $2500 for 68 I/O's to SAC. ART optube interfaces are about $400 so then you have about $5000 for 68 I/O's. But you have a gain and a saturation knob to fret over.
If you use the MOTU 24IO they are about $1000 each and $3000 would get you 72 I/O's. The outputs are BALANCED 1/4" so you do NOT need a transformer just an adapter for xlr's or a patch panel could be wired for that. SMpro Audio's pr8e is around $200, Octopre mkII $500 and they come with 1/4 outs so you just need some balanced patch cables and only use adapters for the 24io's outputs. But with the 24io you have the flexibility to use any pre-amp. So you might consider a few premium channels for key performers. SO $2000 to $6000 in this scenario for pre-amps. So a simple plan would be $5000-$10,000. For all the channels you want.
You could start with 2 2408 mkI's and 4 Behringer AD8000's for under $1500. Or a 2408 MkI and a 24IO with 2 ADA8000's and 2 Octopre's for $2800. With a set up like this you would have room for 16 more channels of pre-amps. So upgrades are easy. But I recommend the 2408 mkII because it has balanced I/O's.
Or If you like ADAT at 24/48 get the 2408 mkI's and a pcie card for about $1000-1500 and then get any ADAT pre-amps you like. And still have room for one more MOTU interface!
I am giving this advice because MOTU can get confusing. For the record I still have two original RME digi9652 cards w/wordclock. They were rock solid interfaces but I have switched to MOTU and have a 2408mkIII, a 24io w/black lion mod and a 1296. I plan to get Octopre mkII's and the Appsys remote gain controller ($400.) I just want to control my pre-amp gain from my PC without needing a monitor tech to help me. I have an Octpre Platinum with dynamics and I agree it would probably just confuse people with too many knobs. And the stupid thing does not recall it bit rate settings on power up. It sounds better than my ADA8000 especially when you need to turn up the gain. And the dynamics are easy to adjust musically. Just not in your situation. It is too easy to squash the life out of a signal by a newbie, try mixing that. The SAC compressors are so easy to grab I don't really see the point in adding to confusion.
One big advantage the 9652 cards has is that they power up with the computer. With MOTU if you don't power up an interface your computer can't see it until you turn it on and refresh your asio driver. So keep your MOTU and your PC on the same switch. Problem solved.
Well my rant is over. Good luck and keep us updated.
P.S. do your own research to verify my figures.
P.P.S. I wish I had your budget, or any budget at all.
P.P.P.S. I don't think my core2duo could handle 60 inputs with FX well. Get a core i3-2130(or whatever the core i3 fastest chip is called) as a minimum. It's worth it.

Most of what GoForth mentioned about preamps here is why I prefer the ProFire2626 as a preamp into SAC if you need line outputs on them as well.

RBIngraham
05-31-2012, 08:40 AM
Thanks everyone for the input.

I thought I was missing something with the MOTUs - it just seemed too good to be true ;-)




The MOTU systems will still be more economical for larger channel counts. You don't get 24 I/O units. Get the cheaper 2408 units. Even with 2408 MK3 units they will still be cheaper and you'll only need one card slot, which I see as their biggest bonus to me. Plus I like having meters and the like on the front panel for troubleshooting. It makes finding a problem a lot easier to see if you made a mistake in your patching or routing in SAC or if something is just physically patched wrong.

If you go with Presonus D8s they sound decent and work well (at least for me so far). Hook them up to as many 2408s as you need. Then you just use the analog outputs on the 2408 to feed your system. Or you can do what I do which is to pick up an old 1224 and I use that just for it's analog outputs.

Here is some example paperwork:

http://www.rbicompaudio.20m.com/Ave%20Q.html

Mattseymour
06-01-2012, 12:37 AM
I've built an install system using the Motu 24i (not the 24io), 3 x smpr8e preamps and a motu 2408 for the additional 8 channels analogue io. It's working very well, and I'm happy with the smpr8e/24i combo.

It was chosen simply because I got a good deal on a motu system which included the 24i. It was cheaper to add the preamps to the 24i than buy units with adat outputs, but I've got plenty of scope for upgrades later.