Led Zeppagain Last Weekend

[RandyHyde]

Did the Led Zeppagain show yesterday (pix here:http://www.plantation-productions.com/gigpix/LedZeppagain8-11-2012.html). Damn fine tribute band.

The day started out badly; it was about 104 degrees during setup. Then, the instant we had all the gear setup and operating, clouds moved in and we had a brief rain. Raced to cover gear, move it back into trucks, put it under canopies, etc. Can't remember the last time it rained in SoCal in August (lived here most of my life). Guess I need to make a trip to Harbor Freight and get a bunch of cheap tarps to keep in a box for situations like this. Fortunately, other than some lights on the back truss, nothing got wet to the point of damage (the lights on the back got sprinkled on; I removed them and didn't use them for the show because of safety fears).

Between the 104-degree temperature in the early afternoon and the downpour in the middle afternoon, I was expecting the attendance to drop way down. We still got a crowd of 2,000-3,000 people.

It was a *loud* show. Normally, I stick my SRX 725 cabinets about 5' off the ground. Last week, while walking the venue during the show, I scrunched down to the level of the typical listener (sitting in a lawn chair). I noticed that the high frequencies were going over everyone's head near the front of the venue (given the SRX 725's vertical coverage angle). This week I lowered the cabinets about a foot on the scaffolding. Got about a dozen complaints from people about it being too loud! We sold a lot of ear plugs this last week (we sell ear plugs for $0.25 a pair, free for pre-teens, to avoid liability for hearing damage).
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Donnie Frank]

Did the Led Zeppagain show yesterday (pix here:http://www.plantation-productions.com/gigpix/LedZeppagain8-11-2012.html). Damn fine tribute band.

The day started out badly; it was about 104 degrees during setup. Then, the instant we had all the gear setup and operating, clouds moved in and we had a brief rain. Raced to cover gear, move it back into trucks, put it under canopies, etc. Can't remember the last time it rained in SoCal in August (lived here most of my life). Guess I need to make a trip to Harbor Freight and get a bunch of cheap tarps to keep in a box for situations like this. Fortunately, other than some lights on the back truss, nothing got wet to the point of damage (the lights on the back got sprinkled on; I removed them and didn't use them for the show because of safety fears).

Between the 104-degree temperature in the early afternoon and the downpour in the middle afternoon, I was expecting the attendance to drop way down. We still got a crowd of 2,000-3,000 people.

It was a *loud* show. Normally, I stick my SRX 725 cabinets about 5' off the ground. Last week, while walking the venue during the show, I scrunched down to the level of the typical listener (sitting in a lawn chair). I noticed that the high frequencies were going over everyone's head near the front of the venue (given the SRX 725's vertical coverage angle). This week I lowered the cabinets about a foot on the scaffolding. Got about a dozen complaints from people about it being too loud! We sold a lot of ear plugs this last week (we sell ear plugs for $0.25 a pair, free for pre-teens, to avoid liability for hearing damage).
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

I LOVE those 728s's. I stacked a pair at an outdoor show @3600 watts each and coverage was amazing. I see three in one of your pictures. I know you usually use 4, but 3 would easily work for the crowd you had in the picture. I still think you would like 12" mains over the 15"'s. QSC's new mini line array (KLA12) is looking really good. I performed at a festival and of the sound companies here in town had a pair per side up on poles and it sounded phenomenal. And they only draw 2.01 amps per speaker.


http://www.qscaudio.com/images/products/KLA/KLA_2boxes_over_sub_lo.jpg

I wasn't impressed with the subs. I have a pair of K12's that I've yet to use as mains for any of my rock bands. I've been using them for my acoustic acts and they sound great, but this is at pretty low SPL. I picked up a K8 and use it as a side fill instead of floor wedges. It sounds great, too. It's making rethink my entire equipment strategy.

I see you have the SRX712m's. If you cross-fired a pair per side like you do the 15's @ 1800 watts per cabinet, you would probably be blown away how loud and clear they are without that annoying 250Hz hump 15's give you. The vocal clarity is amazing and bass guitar and snare drums just pop out at you without over-bearing the mix. For grins you should just try it out. You'd probably be blown away what those little babies can do - not to mention it would cut your mains weight down from 400 lbs. to only 132 lbs.!

[Donnie Frank]

Speak of the Devil...

I was looking for videos of the K12 as main speakers for rock bands and stumbled across a video of some chick using it as a bass cabinet (which I have actually had one of my bass players do). Are those SRX712m's they're using as mains????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0ndA0_gh0A

NOT a great example of what the 712m's can do, but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one using them as mains. Indoors I never use more than one per side no matter HOW loud the band. Here's the loudest band ever in the worst room ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXZimq0Njx8

The little speaker that could!...LOL....

[RandyHyde]

I LOVE those 728s's. I stacked a pair at an outdoor show @3600 watts each and coverage was amazing. I see three in one of your pictures. I know you usually use 4, but 3 would easily work for the crowd you had in the picture.

Actually, we're running six. The three you saw in the pix and three in front of those in a cardiod subwoofer array arrangement.

I understand the math and physics, but it's still magic to me when we set up those cardiod subs and I walk from in front of the speakers and get my chest kicked in, then walk behind them and hear the sound drop to almost nothing.



I still think you would like 12" mains over the 15"'s. QSC's new mini line array (KLA12) is looking really good. I performed at a festival and of the sound companies here in town had a pair per side up on poles and it sounded phenomenal. And they only draw 2.01 amps per speaker.

I am not a big fan of line arrays to begin with, and constant curvature line arrays even less so.

I am, however, switching my loyalties from JBL/Crown on MI gear towards QSC. I just bought four PRX 625 cabinets and over the space of two shows (less than 8 hours of use) I've blown up 3 out of 4 PRX 625 amps. I was planning on replacing my old MPro-based "B" rig with PRX gear, but no more. I'll be buying the QSC KW 181 subs and KW122 traps (for monitors). Once the PRX cabinets come back, I'll try them out a couple of more times. If they last, okay. If not, I'll sell them and get QSC KW 153 cabinets.

Never again will I buy JBL MI gear.

The 90 degree coverage pattern of the PRX 625 cabinets is a problem for me, too. For a small garage band, this is perfect -- get a wide coverage angle with just two speakers. I have four, however, and have to run them in a "wall of sound" configuration (backline through one speaker on each side and vocals through the other) to avoid major comb filtering problems. I'd prefer 70- to 75 degree patterns so I can cross-fire or splay the speakers and get 120-150 degree coverage.




I see you have the SRX712m's. If you cross-fired a pair per side like you do the 15's @ 1800 watts per cabinet, you would probably be blown away how loud and clear they are without that annoying 250Hz hump 15's give you. The vocal clarity is amazing and bass guitar and snare drums just pop out at you without over-bearing the mix. For grins you should just try it out. You'd probably be blown away what those little babies can do - not to mention it would cut your mains weight down from 400 lbs. to only 132 lbs.!

Big problem with the 712m cabinets is the 95 dB @ 1w/1m sensitivity (compared with 99 dB for the 725 cabinets). I run the 725 cabinets at about 4,000 watts (one side of an ITech 8000). I'd have to put almost 10,000 watts into the 712m to produce the same SPL (of course, they wouldn't handle that, but you get my point).

To be truthful, I'm real happy with my SRX "A" rig right now. It's *just* big enough to do shows with 3,000-3,500 people outdoors (well, when I include the delay stacks). Next time around, I'm going with three Danley SH46 cabinets per side (106 dB @1w/1m). Louder, better sounding, but heavier (150 pounds/cabinet). Will probably have to fly those, but we'll see. I'm still $30,000 away from buying six of those guys, so it's not happening for a couple of years (and then there will be new subs to get, too).
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Sound Machine Inc]

Randy I know you hate line arrays, but have you looked at the VTC stuff?? 89lbs per cabinet and very high spl..., ground stackable as well as flyable.. I can attest to how great they sound.. I am also a dealer and can make you a good deal :) Whole VTC line is Danley designed around the same Synergy Horn concept


http://www.vtcproaudio.com/el210.html

[Donnie Frank]

Actually, we're running six. The three you saw in the pix and three in front of those in a cardiod subwoofer array arrangement.

I understand the math and physics, but it's still magic to me when we set up those cardiod subs and I walk from in front of the speakers and get my chest kicked in, then walk behind them and hear the sound drop to almost nothing.



Pretty kewl. I have read much regarding cardiod subs but have yet to implement such a beast. Honestly, the guys like feeling the low end on stage, especially the drummer.

Have sub frequencies really been an issue on your stages?





I am, however, switching my loyalties from JBL/Crown on MI gear towards QSC. I just bought four PRX 625 cabinets and over the space of two shows (less than 8 hours of use) I've blown up 3 out of 4 PRX 625 amps.



OUCH. I LOVE the SRX stuff. I read bad things regarding the PRX stuff. I really like the QSC stuff so far. I've yet to use them as mains for a rock-n-roll show. We'll see....

[Soundguy]

I am, however, switching my loyalties from JBL/Crown on MI gear towards QSC. I just bought four PRX 625 cabinets and over the space of two shows (less than 8 hours of use) I've blown up 3 out of 4 PRX 625 amps. I was planning on replacing my old MPro-based "B" rig with PRX gear, but no more. I'll be buying the QSC KW 181 subs and KW122 traps (for monitors). Once the PRX cabinets come back, I'll try them out a couple of more times. If they last, okay. If not, I'll sell them and get QSC KW 153 cabinets.

Never again will I buy JBL MI gear.



If you are used to using SRX 725s, it comes as no surprise that the PRX series did not pass muster.

It's not mentioned in the specs, but the 15" woofer in the PRX 625 is a 2 ohm speaker used in other JBL (self powered only) products with much lower power handling capacity, so if you are driving that amp hard (and you probably are, if using them in conjunction with SRX), it's running at maximum output, maximum load every moment, and that is not good operating conditions for any amplifier.

It's really not a suitable box used in the way you have implemented it. I think if you were running them solo in a lower stress situation, they would provide more than adequate bang for the much-lesser-buck than you pay for the SRX series.

As a JBL dealer, just defending my products.:) I am also a QSC dealer and am quite pleased with the new K series lines for smaller applications.

Soundguy

[Donnie Frank]

As a JBL dealer, just defending my products.:) I am also a QSC dealer and am quite pleased with the new K series lines for smaller applications.

Soundguy

I have been a loyal QSC customer since 1999, when I took a PowerLight 2.0 all over the freakin' world. Despite being in somewhat of a "lightweight" case, it performed flawlessly through 3 or 4 tours spanning over a year of actual road time. I now own roughly 17 QSC products and love every one of them. Though I haven't used my K12's for a rock band yet, my hopes are that they will perform as well as the SRX712m's I use as mains (powered with my PLX3602's in bridge mode). We'll see. I may just use them to augment the JBL's or use them as monitors. The possibilities are limitless.

Regarding the 712m's, I never fail to get the reaction, "THOSE are your MAINS?" Everything changes once they hear them.

The most recent addition to my arsenal are a pair of K8's (the second one is on its way). I've been using one as a side fill with spectacular results. The 6-year warranty nets real piece-of-mind, too. I've had to collect on the warranty twice for amps I purchased as "broken." Just registered the warranty and sent them in. QSC did the repairs free-of-charge. What a great company.

My only complaint would be their website. It's hard to believe that in today's age of information and databasing, I can't access a single page that shows all my warranty items in a spreadsheet format. I literally had to call QSC and have one of the representatives do a search, who then compiled a list and e'mailed it to me. Even then the list was incomplete with no serial numbers, which made it almost useless. Odd.

Other than that, I have to say that QSC and JBL are my favorite audio companies. They comprise my entire audio arsenal.

Here's a picture of one of my racks:

http://www.drummerdonnie.com/sound/EquipmentPics/RedRack_FrontSmall.jpg


http://www.drummerdonnie.com/sound/EquipmentPics/RedRack_BackSmall.jpg

As you can see this rack ties into a standard 100 amp twist lock (I know, not code. Not protected are the 6, 12" long Edison cables. I can live with that).

The patch bay facilitates the use of any amp in the rack in bridge mode without having to make a special cable. This has worked out incredibly well.

Kudos to you for choosing 2 of the best audio companies around. I push my stuff to the bejesus and it never fails to amaze.

[Andy Hamm]

JBL has cleaned up its act quite a bit lately. It wasn't that long ago that we refered to it as "Junk But Loud"

[Soundguy]

Yep. A few years ago they brought in Paul Bauman formally of L'Acoustics and the bar was raised quite high in the pro division. His first order of business was to create the V4 processor presets for the Vertec line arrays ... sounding leaps and bounds superior to the earlier presets ... and in line with the competition. The engineering team has expanded to allow Harman to focus on sound quality and not just marketing the brand name.

Soundguy

[RandyHyde]

Randy I know you hate line arrays, but have you looked at the VTC stuff?? 89lbs per cabinet and very high spl..., ground stackable as well as flyable.. I can attest to how great they sound.. I am also a dealer and can make you a good deal :) Whole VTC line is Danley designed around the same Synergy Horn concept


http://www.vtcproaudio.com/el210.html

Saving up my bucks for a Danley rig :)
My next "A" rig is probably going to be in the $150K-200K range. So it will be a while.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[RandyHyde]

Have sub frequencies really been an issue on your stages?

Definitely stage volume has come down a notch since going with the cardiod subs. I am surprised that no one has yet complained about a lack of lows on the stage since I've gone that route.

The main reason, however, for going with cardiod subs was to avoid a twelve-18"-speaker array of subs straight across the front of the stage which would really cut out the LF materials to the sides of the stage. By going cardiod, I've reduced it to a six-18"-speaker-wide array which gives me more coverage on the sides. My venues tend to be very wide.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde