Behringer ADA8200

[Wurst Werner]

Me gusta!

http://soundforums.net/varsity/4299-uli-behringer-music-group-q-10.html#post34533

[Mattseymour]

You beat me ;) interesting indeed.

[Wurst Werner]

You beat me ;) interesting indeed.

I was up early..lot of work here. :-)
It seems, that all the major problems of the ADA8000 have been adressed. I only wished, that Behringer would have build in some sort of remote gain...

[RBIngraham]

Interesting, but I wish Bob had also told him to make the thing 2u tall, put all the connections on the back, put all the buttons and controls on the front and make the phantom switchable per channel or at least in pairs rather than all on or off.

[brent]

Our you could just buy the Behringer S16, which has the Midas pres, 16ins, 8 outs, individual phantom per channel, with headphone soloing feature, in a 2U box, which will save rack space (if you currently gap between each ADA8000, and the ability to remote control the preamps and control the SAC with 8 faders via an X32.

[derek_vw]

Hopefully it's the same price!

[erlohr]

Our you could just buy the Behringer S16, which has the Midas pres, 16ins, 8 outs, individual phantom per channel, with headphone soloing feature, in a 2U box, which will save rack space (if you currently gap between each ADA8000, and the ability to remote control the preamps and control the SAC with 8 faders via an X32.


Who makes an affordable AES50 PC card that will work with this? And how would the remote pres be controlled?

[Mattseymour]

Lynx makes a card. Take a look at another thread here though where someone has had a nightmare getting the lynx card to pay nice with theists units on which the S16 is based.

Currently no preamp control.

[brent]

The AES50 incident is one guys problem, and is not the norm.

You do not need the AES50 interface to pass audio. You could use the ADAT outs, into a RayDat card. You would need an X32 to remote control the preamps and store the gain, phantom power, etc informations in scenes. You could use the X32 to control SAC faders. There will not be any other way to control the gain remotely aside from the X32.

[RBIngraham]

The AES50 incident is one guys problem, and is not the norm.

You do not need the AES50 interface to pass audio. You could use the ADAT outs, into a RayDat card. You would need an X32 to remote control the preamps and store the gain, phantom power, etc informations in scenes. You could use the X32 to control SAC faders. There will not be any other way to control the gain remotely aside from the X32.

If I'm going to buy and more important lug around and find a place to put an X32 on shows I might as well just mix the show on them and forget SAC. Although for me it would take at least 2 of them to accomplish most of my shows.

Whomever thought only allowing 8 faders to work as remote surface for other products should have their head examined. Very bad choice in my no so humble opinion.

Anyway, all this new B stuff, I would wait till the jury is out before I spent any of my money on it. Make sure it all works as advertised and doesn't die in the first 12 to 18 months of use.

As the saying goes fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. :)

One of the theatres I work at has teh Lynx AES cards, I should test them with SAC some day and see how well it works. Of course theirs are hooked up to benchmark D to A units, so plugging in a Behringer would be a step backward for them.

[ssrsound]

The AES50 incident is one guys problem, and is not the norm.

You do not need the AES50 interface to pass audio. You could use the ADAT outs, into a RayDat card. You would need an X32 to remote control the preamps and store the gain, phantom power, etc informations in scenes. You could use the X32 to control SAC faders. There will not be any other way to control the gain remotely aside from the X32.

The S16 only has ADAT out, not out/in. So as it stands it doesn't work for SAC use without an AES50 card or a converter. I wish it did have both out/in... 2x S16 at the FOH side to make a digital snake would only cost a tiny bit more than a single Lynx AES50 card... and then you'd have pre-amp control at FOH.

[brent]

Well, you are correct about no ADAT ins. Until I get the AES50 thing working...I will have the X32. Since the X32 would be at FOH controlling the S16s and storing scenes, why not send the SAC outputs through the X32, and back out to the S16s, assuming the PC lives at FOH...

[RBIngraham]

Well, you are correct about no ADAT ins. Until I get the AES50 thing working...I will have the X32. Since the X32 would be at FOH controlling the S16s and storing scenes, why not send the SAC outputs through the X32, and back out to the S16s, assuming the PC lives at FOH...


No offense, if it works for you then go for it, but it sounds rather convoluted to me and a lot more complex than it needs to be. Better to just spend money on better preamps that are fully remoteable without having to buy an entire console and you won't be stuck with some Behringer thing you're beta testing for them.

If I was going to go with such a package I would just use SAC and buy aphex preamps and be done with it.

[brent]

No offense, if it works for you then go for it, but it sounds rather convoluted to me and a lot more complex than it needs to be. Better to just spend money on better preamps that are fully remoteable without having to buy an entire console and you won't be stuck with some Behringer thing you're beta testing for them.

If I was going to go with such a package I would just use SAC and buy aphex preamps and be done with it.

It might, but I can rent the X32 out when between gigs.

[RBIngraham]

It might, but I can rent the X32 out when between gigs.


Good point! I don't rent my gear out for the most part. Only occasionally to friends and technically to the shows I work on. But that's about it.

[Donnie Frank]

Wow...that's awesome. Way to go, Bob.

[glass50]

Glad to hear Bob & Uli are talking. I would also appreciate connectors on back side. Not XLR but Dsub25 for in and out. I would cable three 8 channel stage boxes directly to back side and nevr have to reach through wire and connector to adjust trim, 1U format works fine for me.

[solarex]

Awesome news! Uli Behringer shouts out to Bob :-)
I hope the price isn't high.

[Wurst Werner]

Beside the ADA8200, wich seems to be a nice improvement, I would like to see, that Rolf from Appsys would build an AES50 to ADAT/Madi convertor! So that we could use the S-16 (got one here with me - really nice box!) for our SAC rigs.

Honk - if you like the idea:)

http://s14.directupload.net/images/120815/6ar9hkcq.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)

[Mattseymour]

I'm sure I saw a post somewhere that it's something Rolf's working on. Still stuck with the mic pre control issue though.

[TomyN]

S-16 Preamps can be controlled via Midi (says Behringer).

I'll gonna adapt my SCA-Gain-Midi Controller as soon as specs are available.

S-16 has to be clock-source when the ADAT outs are used. You can link units by cat-cable to clock more than one unit.

Tomy

[brent]

Beside the ADA8200, wich seems to be a nice improvement, I would like to see, that Rolf from Appsys would build an AES50 to ADAT/Madi convertor! So that we could use the S-16 (got one here with me - really nice box!) for our SAC rigs.

Honk - if you like the idea:)

http://s14.directupload.net/images/120815/6ar9hkcq.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)

Hey brother, I hope that isn't an Audi 5000. Remember what happened to those? They started up and took off through garage walls...:) Quick! Move the gear! Ahhhhhhhhh!

[brent]

S-16 Preamps can be controlled via Midi (says Behringer)

Yeah...I asked about that at the roll-out. They said no, which did not make sense to me. They said the MIDI IN/THRU was for controlling external MIDI devices, or external MIDI devices controlling the S16. Now, if the external MIDI devices can control the S16, how can they not control the preamps? Of course, they must have been mistaken.

[Wurst Werner]

Hey brother, I hope that isn't an Audi 5000. Remember what happened to those? They started up and took off through garage walls...:) Quick! Move the gear! Ahhhhhhhhh!

The funny thing is, my workroom (where I shot this picture) was actually a garage before:eek:
Now I wear a crash helmet for a reason:cool:

[William Bushnell]

It seems, that all the major problems of the ADA8000 have been adressed.

Does that also include the auto mute "feature" that was added on the later ADA8000 units? A real pain when using SAW Studio. I haven't purchased any ADA8000 converters for some time but if I remember correctly, it was mentioned there was a fix for the auto mute "feature" on later units.
_____________
William Bushnell

[martiaudio]

I am glad that Berhinger is coming up with a better version ADA. lets hope that it works in time.
I was just about to start all my modifications standardised for the ADA8000. My problem was reliability, time and budget, especially with transformer on every inputs and a much more direct TRS input for studio use with Hi-end preamps.
I will just modify a faulty ADA8000 into a 8ch MIcPre input completely modified for my RME fireface 400..

That way I have 3 possible systems SAC/SAW...to come
Macbookpro + RME Fireface 400 2MicPre 6i/8o mainly for live processing on analog system for example.. or just a hostile venue speech press conference gig..you get the idea.

MacBookPro + RME Fireface 400, ADA8000 mod and 8ch MicPre...16i/16o average gigs...16ch if fine!!

HP E8400 + Control surface custom unit + up to 2x RME RayDAT, up to 8x ADA8200 for up to 64i/64o.. serious system..

I appreciate that some of you hate Berhinger. Those of you should leave the thread for people truly interested and enthusiastic and even more objective about the subject..

Bottom line is this: If you are on serious budget limitations like me, You want to use SAC/SAW like me, ADA8200 will still be the cheapest and simple solution assuming that Berhinger price it well of course..

Any other approach make the sac solution too complicated redundant at times, open to fault and expensive.. therefore it is way more interesting to invest in an ALLEN & HEATH ILIVE because you get a more AllinOne solution with quality i/o.. and it is a mixing desk after all..My best choice at the moment.. forget Yamaha, x32, Midas, Avid, digico .. the A&H is really good.

Now if you keep SAC simple as it was intended I believe, ADA8200 will probably be the only solution worth considering.
and besides that allow people to invest gradually 8ch at the time again..
and again.. ADAT is still the cheapest solution and 48KHz if fine !:)

[RandyHyde]

Bottom line is this: If you are on serious budget limitations like me, You want to use SAC/SAW like me, ADA8200 will still be the cheapest and simple solution assuming that Berhinger price it well of course..

This, of course, is the main argument for going with Berhinger....



Any other approach make the sac solution too complicated redundant at times, open to fault and expensive..
This doesn't follow at all.

Except for control surface support, my SAC rig does most of what I'd want an iLive setup to do. The difference is that I've got $15k to $20K into my "A" SAC rig (the range depends upon whether you count control surfaces I've purchased in anticipation of using them with SAC someday, which may have been a big mistake). A comparable iLive rig would cost $50K-$75K. Granted, for that extra money I'd have good control surface support, remoteable preamps, and a few other features that SAC doesn't support, but the reverse is true, too.

I'm on a budget too. I cannot currently afford $75K for a dream iLive system. I was able to put together $20K. Just because you can build a SAC system for around $2K doesn't mean this is the proper approach for everyone. Quite frankly, if I were willing to live with ADA8200 boxes, I'd probably be willing to go with the Behringer X32 and avoid many of SAC's problems (not that the X32 won't have its own problems, particularly being Behringer).

Yes, it's nice that SAC can be configured into a real low-end system for people on a tight budget. But to claim that SAC shouldn't be used outside that application area is pushing it a bit. I'm sure it would be safe to claim that SAC doesn't really replace $300K consoles out there, but I do believe it's safe to say that SAC is pretty good at replacing decent-quality digital consoles that cost 3x as much as SAC. The X32 is a game-changer; I think that people trying to put together dirt-cheap SAC systems will tend to gravitate more towards the low-end digital boards like the X32 and StudioLive. As a result, I think that we'll find SAC's place is among the mid-range low-cost digital consoles (e.g., the A&H GLD, Yamaha's LS9, and the like).
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[UpTilDawn]

I think it'd also be fair to point out that SAC includes a whole bunch of virtual monitor consoles for that very low cost of the software, no matter how little or much you spend on the total system.

[martiaudio]

I am hovering through your post Randy, and again perhaps one could misunderstand the point here with respect:
The forum started again.. and it is the same old opinionated people with complete subjective point of views.. Some people should read Bob's terms again BTW.
As far as I am concern I do not care about brands.

My analogy to A&H ilive from small to bigger rig is that it is possible to get a nice rig at budget. Better that than SAC with a complicated rig.

However SAC and ADA8200s seems to me the best price/Quality but lets wait..

There is a reason why Bob choose this set up for a long time with Ray DAT and ADAT.. by far the cheapest option. yet up to 64ch.
That is all.

[905shmick]

The dispute has never been about the interface, nobody is going to argue against using a RayDAT. It's not even about SAC, it's about comparing a system using cheapest of the cheap B* preamps, which have been found to be a bit of a weak link in the chain. Saying the currently non-existent ADA8200 fixes this is a little far fetched right now.

Only time will tell.

[brent]

I am glad that Berhinger is coming up with a better version ADA. lets hope that it works in time.
I was just about to start all my modifications standardised for the ADA8000. My problem was reliability, time and budget, especially with transformer on every inputs and a much more direct TRS input for studio use with Hi-end preamps.
I will just modify a faulty ADA8000 into a 8ch MIcPre input completely modified for my RME fireface 400..

That way I have 3 possible systems SAC/SAW...to come
Macbookpro + RME Fireface 400 2MicPre 6i/8o mainly for live processing on analog system for example.. or just a hostile venue speech press conference gig..you get the idea.

MacBookPro + RME Fireface 400, ADA8000 mod and 8ch MicPre...16i/16o average gigs...16ch if fine!!

HP E8400 + Control surface custom unit + up to 2x RME RayDAT, up to 8x ADA8200 for up to 64i/64o.. serious system..

I appreciate that some of you hate Berhinger. Those of you should leave the thread for people truly interested and enthusiastic and even more objective about the subject..

Bottom line is this: If you are on serious budget limitations like me, You want to use SAC/SAW like me, ADA8200 will still be the cheapest and simple solution assuming that Berhinger price it well of course..

Any other approach make the sac solution too complicated redundant at times, open to fault and expensive.. therefore it is way more interesting to invest in an ALLEN & HEATH ILIVE because you get a more AllinOne solution with quality i/o.. and it is a mixing desk after all..My best choice at the moment.. forget Yamaha, x32, Midas, Avid, digico .. the A&H is really good.

Now if you keep SAC simple as it was intended I believe, ADA8200 will probably be the only solution worth considering.
and besides that allow people to invest gradually 8ch at the time again..
and again.. ADAT is still the cheapest solution and 48KHz if fine !:)

You could buy an iLive system without the control surface, using the computer/GUI to control it. It would be an expensive front end, but you could use it as the front end for a SAC system, and then have something to rent out to other local, regional or national SR companies.

[gdougherty]

Profires dropped to $400 and are a far better budget SAC option than the ADA8000 or probably even the ADA8200. Biggest problem is that the price drop is likely due to a pending discontinuation now that M-Audio was sold off so they may not be available forever. I'm doing okay though since I now have 5 in two racks waiting for a second RayDAT in the big rig to allow use in 3 different scenarios.

[brent]

Yeah, people thought MAudio wasn't supported well before. The worst is yet to come for legacy product owners. We all know what a joy it has been getting service and support for Alesis products under the same ownership.

Manufacturers from all over the spectrum tell us that the max life span for a product now is about three years on the low to mid level gear. It comes down to this folks. If you want to have some good product and support, you have to spend a little. If you are buying price point products, you will find yourself replacing them in a few years.

[Donnie Frank]

Yeah, people thought MAudio wasn't supported well before. The worst is yet to come for legacy product owners. We all know what a joy it has been getting service and support for Alesis products under the same ownership.

Manufacturers from all over the spectrum tell us that the max life span for a product now is about three years on the low to mid level gear. It comes down to this folks. If you want to have some good product and support, you have to spend a little. If you are buying price point products, you will find yourself replacing them in a few years.

Exactly. At $175.00 per for brand new ADA8K's, I needed 3 so I purchased 5. A spare stays in my UPS rack pre-wired and ready to go with the 5th at home standing by. I purchased 3 new (to get the warranty) and the 2 spares used (because I knew they'd be sitting around for a long time). To date I've been lucky enough to not have any ADA8K issues <knock on wood>. But based on the reports in this forum, you can bet that I'm ready for a failure.

I just picked up a 6th ADA8K for 50 bucks from a local studio that just went out of business. So now I have 3 spares. Total ADA8K investment is < 800 bucks.

[ssrsound]

See.. that's the thing. I always go out with more channels than I need. They're already wired in. So for me, if a unit fails, I just shift the inputs to the remaining working units. This also solves the problems that happen when a customer suddenly wants a bunch more stuff than they originally asked for.

...and even planning for that, I've never had an ADA8000 fail. I've had them give fuzz when I turn them on, but power cycling always fixes it, so I include checking for that in my line-check procedure these days.

The reason I want to replace my ADA8ks isn't because of reliability -- they've been fine. Its because now that I've used a few other units I find the sound on the ADA8ks to be crispier than I'd like. I didn't notice it until I got them side-by-side with an M-audio Profire. That, and I'd really not like to have the "oh, you're using Behringer?" conversation with a customer ever. Gear snobs are idiots, but they're sometimes also the people who cut me checks.

[Donnie Frank]

See.. that's the thing. I always go out with more channels than I need. They're already wired in. So for me, if a unit fails, I just shift the inputs to the remaining working units. This also solves the problems that happen when a customer suddenly wants a bunch more stuff than they originally asked for.

...and even planning for that, I've never had an ADA8000 fail. I've had them give fuzz when I turn them on, but power cycling always fixes it, so I include checking for that in my line-check procedure these days.

The reason I want to replace my ADA8ks isn't because of reliability -- they've been fine. Its because now that I've used a few other units I find the sound on the ADA8ks to be crispier than I'd like. I didn't notice it until I got them side-by-side with an M-audio Profire. That, and I'd really not like to have the "oh, you're using Behringer?" conversation with a customer ever. Gear snobs are idiots, but they're sometimes also the people who cut me checks.

Very nicely put...especially the last line.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on perspective), I don't have comprehensive contract riders to deal with. And the reason I keep the ADA8K as a spare and not already in my SAC system is because I've already reached my 24 x 24 channel count limit with my RME card. So for now I have to keep the spare ADA8K in a "stand by" mode. So far I haven't had a want or need for more than 24 channels <knock on wood>. If the need ever arises, I will have to upgrade my SAC rig. I have a spare RME card standing by at the ready.

[brent]

Now wait. You can't say gear snobs are idiots. If they have a standard, and they know that certain gear is reliable, has a good support network globally, nationally, regionally, etc, they know the issues because the user base is larger and deeper across multiple sects of the industry, that is not a bad thing. They do not want to roll the dice. Heck, anything can fail. So you want to go out knowing that you are only as good as your last gig, and bad news travels fast. Do you want to go out spending your time convincing you can do the same thing with an entry level MI piece, or so you want to take a booking, do the job, make contacts and get the repeat gig?

Some people accuse others of being snobs. I think some of those people are trying to make themselves feel better about their inability to play in the big pool with the big kids.

This all comes down to using your gear in context, and not shooting off your mount, but demonstrating your chops proficiently. Having all the right tools doesn't make you great. But, it sure gets you in the door at least once if your price is right and you know somebody.

People have been anti Behringer for darn good reason. You can't get support and you can't get parts. This may change now, but crap-a-moly, the junk has been on the market with sub-par service since it came out in the laste 80s. So, anyone that says Behringer shouldn't be snobbed against is just a fool. Behringer, Mackie, Peavey, etc have been banned on riders for good reason. They just weren't banned for the heck of it.

[airickess]

...and even planning for that, I've never had an ADA8000 fail. I've had them give fuzz when I turn them on, but power cycling always fixes it, so I include checking for that in my line-check procedure these days.

The reason I want to replace my ADA8ks isn't because of reliability -- they've been fine.In my opinion having to power-cycle a piece of gear because of an output noise issue doesn't make it "fine" for me. It makes it unreliable.

[JLepore]

Now wait. You can't say gear snobs are idiots. If they have a standard, and they know that certain gear is reliable, has a good support network globally, nationally, regionally, etc, they know the issues because the user base is larger and deeper across multiple sects of the industry, that is not a bad thing. They do not want to roll the dice. Heck, anything can fail. So you want to go out knowing that you are only as good as your last gig, and bad news travels fast. Do you want to go out spending your time convincing you can do the same thing with an entry level MI piece, or so you want to take a booking, do the job, make contacts and get the repeat gig?

Some people accuse others of being snobs. I think some of those people are trying to make themselves feel better about their inability to play in the big pool with the big kids.

This all comes down to using your gear in context, and not shooting off your mount, but demonstrating your chops proficiently. Having all the right tools doesn't make you great. But, it sure gets you in the door at least once if your price is right and you know somebody.

People have been anti Behringer for darn good reason. You can't get support and you can't get parts. This may change now, but crap-a-moly, the junk has been on the market with sub-par service since it came out in the laste 80s. So, anyone that says Behringer shouldn't be snobbed against is just a fool. Behringer, Mackie, Peavey, etc have been banned on riders for good reason. They just weren't banned for the heck of it.


AMEN!

[ssrsound]

See Brent -- you're talking about several different people there. There's the guy who has a certain standard and knows what he wants. That person puts on their rider "I want PM5D or a Venue". If they're willing to pay for it, they get it. They know enough to know what they want. I completely respect that.

But (to use an extreme example) what about the guy who puts "No Carvin!" on his rider because so many Carvin MI speakers are crap... that would also exclude a lot of Clair Brothers equipment that uses specialized Carvin amps. The generalized statement is dumb. If it's in their rider not to use it, it won't be in my rack at the gig. But that doesn't make it a smart statement on their part. That same person usually won't complain about unknown Chinese gear, so long as it has a pretty logo or looks sufficiently industrial. That's the gear snob. And like most snobbery, its not based on knowledge -- its based on a feeling of superiority that comes from having a common thing to look down on.

As a regional provider, I provide Venues, PM5ds, M7CLs, H3000s, and whatever else anyone is willing to pay for. But SAC with a bunch of ADA8ks has allowed me to provide much better quality of service for customers who would NOT have been wiling to pay for those above boards. If you're going to reject that because there's a Behringer piece of equipment in there, tha't's fine. Then you can have the Mackie SR or the Yamaha MG with a rack of Klark EQs, DBX compressors, Apex gates and Yamaha effects that you can afford instead. Your choice. Lotsa good brand names in there. But I can guarantee you that my SAC system with a bunch of ADA8ks will sound better and will make your show run better... and probably cost less to rent. The gear snob (who doesn't actually know anything) would probably prefer the Yamaha MG with the rack.

[Carey Langille]

See Brent -- you're talking about several different people there. There's the guy who has a certain standard and knows what he wants. That person puts on their rider "I want PM5D or a Venue". If they're willing to pay for it, they get it. They know enough to know what they want. I completely respect that.

But (to use an extreme example) what about the guy who puts "No Carvin!" on his rider because so many Carvin MI speakers are crap... that would also exclude a lot of Clair Brothers equipment that uses specialized Carvin amps. The generalized statement is dumb. If it's in their rider not to use it, it won't be in my rack at the gig. But that doesn't make it a smart statement on their part. That same person usually won't complain about unknown Chinese gear, so long as it has a pretty logo or looks sufficiently industrial. That's the gear snob. And like most snobbery, its not based on knowledge -- its based on a feeling of superiority that comes from having a common thing to look down on.

As a regional provider, I provide Venues, PM5ds, M7CLs, H3000s, and whatever else anyone is willing to pay for. But SAC with a bunch of ADA8ks has allowed me to provide much better quality of service for customers who would NOT have been wiling to pay for those above boards. If you're going to reject that because there's a Behringer piece of equipment in there, tha't's fine. Then you can have the Mackie SR or the Yamaha MG with a rack of Klark EQs, DBX compressors, Apex gates and Yamaha effects that you can afford instead. Your choice. Lotsa good brand names in there. But I can guarantee you that my SAC system with a bunch of ADA8ks will sound better and will make your show run better... and probably cost less to rent. The gear snob (who doesn't actually know anything) would probably prefer the Yamaha MG with the rack.

AMEN!

[brent]

Let me clarify something for ya.

Carvin is an MI company, that uses inexpensive Eminence drivers. Their speakers sound terrible most of the time.

Carver was an amplifier company started by audio designer/engineer Bob Carver. Carver sold it off, and the pro division was birthed and operated as a separate entity. Clair USED to implement heavily modified Carver amps in the old days, because of their weight. Clair speakers used JBL drivers almost exclusively back then, some of them were custom.

You are basing your argument on a false premise. But, I understand why you could have made it, confusing the two companies. That said, people in the industry are not stupid. We all know that no company has a permanent staff of engineers, designers and product line managers. These guys rotate jobs like we change underwear. So, there is not one brand that makes everything well all of the time. So, it is entirely possible for people to be accepting of a particular line under a company moniker, and not the others. I would never accept JBL SRX for an outdoor venue that called for a line array, but it would pass for a smaller, indoor venue. In either case, I would not accept JBL amplifiers, as their amps were never built large enough for either speaker system. It is a matter of proper matching comparable quality and components.

I don't like people charging less for SAC rentals. You diminish it's value. Just because it is cheaper to assemble does not mean that the performance dictates a lesser rate.

[Soundguy]

So, anyone that says Behringer shouldn't be snobbed against is just a fool. Behringer, Mackie, Peavey, etc have been banned on riders for good reason. They just weren't banned for the heck of it.

I just took a peek at a couple of riders I had on my laptop for upcoming shows, and neither of them ban anything. Instead, they give brand names for consoles, speakers and amps and such as as minimum "guidelines". They don't list every single piece of gear that is acceptable, although the list includes Midas, Digico, Yamaha and Soundcraft. In fact, the rider appears to be old enough that the current breed of digital desks aren't even listed. No snobbery here, just a statement of what is considered acceptable.

The riders also state that ALL audio gear must have final approval by artist's representatives, and no, Behringer, Peavy and Mackie will not be approved. Could I mix a good show on some of this stuff? I like to think I have those skills, but why bother when much better pro gear is readily available anywhere at a fair price? The gear used is also a reflection of the professionalism of the crew and service that will be provided.

Soundguy

[gdougherty]

Yeah, people thought MAudio wasn't supported well before. The worst is yet to come for legacy product owners. We all know what a joy it has been getting service and support for Alesis products under the same ownership.

Manufacturers from all over the spectrum tell us that the max life span for a product now is about three years on the low to mid level gear. It comes down to this folks. If you want to have some good product and support, you have to spend a little. If you are buying price point products, you will find yourself replacing them in a few years.

I'm not as worried about the Profires because the first one I bought 4-5 years ago is still working beautifully fine. Their component and build quality is on a whole different level from the ADA's. The power supply is external and the unit doesn't run hot to the touch. By the time they'll probably give me issues they'll be long out of warranty and the drivers are actually at a very solid and stable point when I use them as an interface.

[brent]

I just wouldn't expect much legacy support from the Numark guys. They haven't been willing to invest in the past of their previously purchased companies.

[Andy Hamm]

Interesting, but I wish Bob had also told him to make the thing 2u tall, put all the connections on the back, put all the buttons and controls on the front and make the phantom switchable per channel or at least in pairs rather than all on or off.

Yes, I. Hate having cables plugged into units on the front side of the rack - very messy.

[soundchicken]

Now wait. You can't say gear snobs are idiots. If they have a standard, and they know that certain gear is reliable, has a good support network globally, nationally, regionally, etc, they know the issues because the user base is larger and deeper across multiple sects of the industry, that is not a bad thing. They do not want to roll the dice. Heck, anything can fail. So you want to go out knowing that you are only as good as your last gig, and bad news travels fast. Do you want to go out spending your time convincing you can do the same thing with an entry level MI piece, or so you want to take a booking, do the job, make contacts and get the repeat gig?

Some people accuse others of being snobs. I think some of those people are trying to make themselves feel better about their inability to play in the big pool with the big kids.

This all comes down to using your gear in context, and not shooting off your mount, but demonstrating your chops proficiently. Having all the right tools doesn't make you great. But, it sure gets you in the door at least once if your price is right and you know somebody.

People have been anti Behringer for darn good reason. You can't get support and you can't get parts. This may change now, but crap-a-moly, the junk has been on the market with sub-par service since it came out in the laste 80s. So, anyone that says Behringer shouldn't be snobbed against is just a fool. Behringer, Mackie, Peavey, etc have been banned on riders for good reason. They just weren't banned for the heck of it.


++1

I'm not a big gear snob, that's just the market I deal with, but I do completely agree with brent. If you absolutely positively have to put on a show with no hiccups you pick the gear you know will perform or that has a good enough history that you will bet your ass will perform, then you get the gear that your budgeting method can supply. I tend to pick up gear that:


passes my ear test. not by specs, not by recommendation (but that will get the gear to the top of the "gotta check out" list.)
passes the history look-up test. I am interested in how the gear is going to continue performing as well as the manufacturers ability to support it.
passes the value quotient. Should I really buy that $1900.00 preamp to make semi-pro/mostly amateur musicians sound better in a club that will have maybe 3db of headroom over stage volume?

I don't rent anything out besides myself and my SAC, and we always work as a pair. I'll admit that I have 2 ada8ks, but they sit in waiting as back up gear if my "good stuff" fails on me.

[RBIngraham]

Yes, I. Hate having cables plugged into units on the front side of the rack - very messy.

That is the best part about going with Presonus D8s for inputs and using the line outputs on my MOTU units for system outputs. Nothing sticking out the front, except maybe when I use the headphone jack.

[RBIngraham]

I don't rent anything out besides myself and my SAC, and we always work as a pair.

Hmmmmmmm? I would hope you always work as a pair.... actually trio no? :rolleyes:

[RBIngraham]

So, there is not one brand that makes everything well all of the time.

Now that is something everyone should agree with. The whole gear snob thing really depends. Some brands have a huge range of gear of all sorts of quality and costs. Think JBL, Yamaha, Shure, etc... They all make some stuff that I think is really great gear and some real **** as well. And even the more narrowly focused brands F things up once in a while. Other brands cater only to the low budget user.

In the end it really doesn't matter. Those that can afford to be picky and wish to do so, can and they will get what they want. If it makes them happy, why the hell should I care?

I use all grades of gear all the time and I am neither embarrassed or proud. (OK, I do really enjoy when I get to use d&b speakers, I'll admit it!) But I even in places that have the money, I don't have them spend a lot of money for a preamp that has a pair or room mics feeding a bunch of tiny 6" 70v speakers backstage in dressing rooms so the actors can hear the show. No point in spending more money than a cheap Mackie for that.

[Butch Bos]

I love it when I do a show that has the usual NO behringer , Peavey ,mackie stuff in the rider
Then
The guitar player has a Peavey amp
The keyboard player has a Behringer mini mixer
The drummer has a Mackie mixer for Ears and click track

Butch

[Mattseymour]

Just a query... People keep talking about MI gear. I understand the concept but would does it actually stand for?

[Soundguy]

Musical Instrument, like the stuff they might sell at Guitar Center as opposed to a pro audio dealer.

Recently had to ask the same question.

Soundguy

[RandyHyde]

I love it when I do a show that has the usual NO behringer , Peavey ,mackie stuff in the rider
Then
The guitar player has a Peavey amp
The keyboard player has a Behringer mini mixer
The drummer has a Mackie mixer for Ears and click track

Butch

Happens to me all the time.

Bottom line is this:
"When someone else is paying for it (the promoter) I want caviar; when I'm paying for it, I'll settle for sardines."

On the other hand, I've just finished a six-week concert series in Corona, Ca. Without fail every act finished the night telling us how professional we were. Normally, I'd let that pass as the band being nice to us. However, they've all gone on to talk about the junky systems they've had to work on in the past month and the "B-word" has come up a couple of times. It's not like they won't work on MI gear, but they're a lot happier when they don't have to. This year (for the first time) I snagged two really big jobs because the bands recommended us. The profit on those two jobs paid for my Focusrite preamps (over Behringer). Not a bad idea to put a good face on things.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[RBIngraham]

Happens to me all the time.

Bottom line is this:
"When someone else is paying for it (the promoter) I want caviar; when I'm paying for it, I'll settle for sardines."

On the other hand, I've just finished a six-week concert series in Corona, Ca. Without fail every act finished the night telling us how professional we were. Normally, I'd let that pass as the band being nice to us. However, they've all gone on to talk about the junky systems they've had to work on in the past month and the "B-word" has come up a couple of times. It's not like they won't work on MI gear, but they're a lot happier when they don't have to. This year (for the first time) I snagged two really big jobs because the bands recommended us. The profit on those two jobs paid for my Focusrite preamps (over Behringer). Not a bad idea to put a good face on things.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde


So not working on these types of shows, I'm just curious....

How much attention do the bands really pay to what console or preamps or other gear is at FOH. Obviously they can see the monitor speakers and maybe the amps that are right in front of them. And they probably have to walk past monitor land to get to the stage so it's not hard to see what's in the racks there. But do they take the time to look at what is happening at FOH?

I guess I'm just used to my world where no one would really pay any attention to what gear I'm using as long as there are not large logos showing on the speakers (which we cover with gaff tape or paint over). As long as things sound good no one would ask questions or care with the exception of the occasional cast member who is the want to be sound person or produces music in their basement on a mbox, because Pro Tools is what all the "Pros" use.

Not being a smart ass at all, just curious how many really pay attention. I have done concerts obviously. Mostly events that have taken place in theatres or venues I work in. But most of the riders I have seen were mostly specific or fussy about their backline and the PA requirements were very simple with crap about being able to reach SPL requirements and the number of monitors and monitor mixes they required. I've never run into any that mentioned any brands by name or at least not to say you couldn't use them.

[erlohr]

From what I understand, you can get an iLive iDR-32 mixrack and use a laptop with the iLive Editor to run a show very similar to a SAC setup. Don't necessarily need the control surface. I've seen the iDR-32 for around $7000.

[TomyN]

Definitely not similar.

SAC is much better to operate.


Tomy

[erlohr]

Definitely not similar.

SAC is much better to operate.


Tomy


Agreed...SAC is much more flexible. Just wanted to point out that a control surface wasn't needed to run the iLive system.

[RBIngraham]

From what I understand, you can get an iLive iDR-32 mixrack and use a laptop with the iLive Editor to run a show very similar to a SAC setup. Don't necessarily need the control surface. I've seen the iDR-32 for around $7000.

There was an article in Live Sound or one of the trade rags about someone doing that, so it can be done. But I'm not sure it's all that great of a solution. I use remote software for various digital consoles all the time and since I'm mostly a designer these days many times I am faster on the remote software than I am on the actual surface. But I would never want to mix a show with them.

I guess the nice thing about that approach is you could start out that way and eventually get some of the iLive surfaces and slowly expand. Hopefully they wouldn't discontinue the product line before you got all the parts you wanted.

[TomyN]

Well,

I like the iLive very much, but the editor is just ... an editor.

You can prepare your show but it is not designed to be used as a mixer under normal circumstances.

Tomy

[Soundguy]

I own a Peavey vintage bass guitar and it sounds great. I have a couple of Mackie 1202 VLZ mixers I user for various routing of DAW channels to monitor speakers and headphones, etc. in my personal studio. Even used one on my rehearsal PA in the garage for a while. Last month I played a gig on a borrowed P-Bass and a Peavey bass amp. Sounded fine except for a bad resonance on one note.

I know these items to be adequate in those situations. I also know that Peavey, Mackie and Behringer items will not be permitted on any professional paying gig that I am hired to work as Soundguy or production manager. It is WAY too easy to get better quality for my clients.

Soundguy

[Butch Bos]

So not working on these types of shows, I'm just curious....

How much attention do the bands really pay to what console or preamps or other gear is at FOH. Obviously they can see the monitor speakers and maybe the amps that are right in front of them. And they probably have to walk past monitor land to get to the stage so it's not hard to see what's in the racks there. But do they take the time to look at what is happening at FOH?

I guess I'm just used to my world where no one would really pay any attention to what gear I'm using as long as there are not large logos showing on the speakers (which we cover with gaff tape or paint over). As long as things sound good no one would ask questions or care with the exception of the occasional cast member who is the want to be sound person or produces music in their basement on a mbox, because Pro Tools is what all the "Pros" use.

Not being a smart ass at all, just curious how many really pay attention. I have done concerts obviously. Mostly events that have taken place in theatres or venues I work in. But most of the riders I have seen were mostly specific or fussy about their backline and the PA requirements were very simple with crap about being able to reach SPL requirements and the number of monitors and monitor mixes they required. I've never run into any that mentioned any brands by name or at least not to say you couldn't use them.

For me it is only a problem if the band has their own Soundguy
If not then as long as monitors and FOH sound good no problem

Butch

[RandyHyde]

So not working on these types of shows, I'm just curious....

How much attention do the bands really pay to what console or preamps or other gear is at FOH.

In my case, everything is at monitor world (except SAC Remote and a Mackie MCU), but most of them head out there anyway and check things out once they discover it's a computer-based system.




Obviously they can see the monitor speakers and maybe the amps that are right in front of them. And they probably have to walk past monitor land to get to the stage so it's not hard to see what's in the racks there. But do they take the time to look at what is happening at FOH?

To be honest, the average band member could care less. No Behringer/No Mackie doesn't mean *exactly* that; what it means is they want a high-quality PA system. Racks of Behringer gear doesn't inspire confidence.

That said, I still pull out some old Behringer DIs when no one is looking (or if I need more DIs than I have Radial units). Only one complaint so far on that (and to be honest, I've never heard a difference between Radial and Behringer in my rig though, surprise, surprise, the Behringer boxes are (mechanically) falling apart).



I guess I'm just used to my world where no one would really pay any attention to what gear I'm using as long as there are not large logos showing on the speakers (which we cover with gaff tape or paint over). As long as things sound good no one would ask questions or care with the exception of the occasional cast member who is the want to be sound person or produces music in their basement on a mbox, because Pro Tools is what all the "Pros" use.

Not being a smart ass at all, just curious how many really pay attention. I have done concerts obviously. Mostly events that have taken place in theatres or venues I work in. But most of the riders I have seen were mostly specific or fussy about their backline and the PA requirements were very simple with crap about being able to reach SPL requirements and the number of monitors and monitor mixes they required. I've never run into any that mentioned any brands by name or at least not to say you couldn't use them.
You've got a captive audience. I don't. I have to compete with other sound providers in the area. When a rider says "no Behringer/no Mackie/etc" I don't want to have to call the TM and argue that an ADA8K is okay. Bad enough that I use a Mackie MCU (which I explain is unneeded and not in the audio chain).

When the band members show up with Behringer mixers, that's when I pull out my Behringer DI boxes :)
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Donnie Frank]

So not working on these types of shows, I'm just curious....

How much attention do the bands really pay to what console or preamps or other gear is at FOH. Obviously they can see the monitor speakers and maybe the amps that are right in front of them. And they probably have to walk past monitor land to get to the stage so it's not hard to see what's in the racks there. But do they take the time to look at what is happening at FOH?

I guess I'm just used to my world where no one would really pay any attention to what gear I'm using as long as there are not large logos showing on the speakers (which we cover with gaff tape or paint over). As long as things sound good no one would ask questions or care with the exception of the occasional cast member who is the want to be sound person or produces music in their basement on a mbox, because Pro Tools is what all the "Pros" use.

Not being a smart ass at all, just curious how many really pay attention. I have done concerts obviously. Mostly events that have taken place in theatres or venues I work in. But most of the riders I have seen were mostly specific or fussy about their backline and the PA requirements were very simple with crap about being able to reach SPL requirements and the number of monitors and monitor mixes they required. I've never run into any that mentioned any brands by name or at least not to say you couldn't use them.

I know you weren't addressing me and my small sound company, but just a quick note to say that when selling my sound company, the "name tossing" I do is JBL, QSC, Radial, L.R. Baggs, T.C. Electronics (which I actually own, but don't use), and even my Allen and Heath analog console (MixWizard). I certainly don't mention Behringer. Even at the local level there are gear snobs out there and wanna-be "Pro Tools" weekend warrior audio engineers. Fortunately I buy my sound gear like I buy any other tool. Get the best and you'll only buy it once.

When I first put my SAC rig together, I saw the Michel Legrand video and thought, "Okay...I gotta have those." I still think the ADA's sound good and are cost-effective. Nobody ever sees the Behringer name on those anyway, as once the levels are set, the Furman light gets turned off and the ADA rack becomes almost pitch black.

[martiaudio]

I know you weren't addressing me and my small sound company, but just a quick note to say that when selling my sound company, the "name tossing" I do is JBL, QSC, Radial, L.R. Baggs, T.C. Electronics (which I actually own, but don't use), and even my Allen and Heath analog console (MixWizard). I certainly don't mention Behringer. Even at the local level there are gear snobs out there and wanna-be "Pro Tools" weekend warrior audio engineers. Fortunately I buy my sound gear like I buy any other tool. Get the best and you'll only buy it once.

When I first put my SAC rig together, I saw the Michel Legrand video and thought, "Okay...I gotta have those." I still think the ADA's sound good and are cost-effective. Nobody ever sees the Behringer name on those anyway, as once the levels are set, the Furman light gets turned off and the ADA rack becomes almost pitch black.
:) I like that: That is exactly how I approach it. the i/o's are just like any other i/o's visually. Who cares.. I like that a lot. and it doesn't diminish the end result at all.

it is after all remarkable how a good guitar player uses good and bad equipment to achieve its great tones.. the PA world need to actually work every time but there is so much snobbism around it and big money: One would think that nowadays there is no need for all that fuss if it isn't a requirement!! besides I'd say that over and over again: If one knows actually what is under the hood of expensive equipment of trend perhaps its marketing would dissolve! it is like anything else a market of greed to forfil unnecessary specifications at best! actually the marketing is based on IS IT COMPATIBLE WITH A FANCY IPAD APP!!
I have been out of the business for 15 years and when I compare 20 years ago and worked with 16 channel FOH mixer and often monitors on auxes at best and on little budget and the last 5 years with the talk of 32, 48, 64channels and 2 desks to forfil the request.. to achieve what
average sound!
I paid for a couple of courses recently. I ended up with kids and the teacher himself was a toy maniac. it is arbitrary but none of them can achieve a mix on a analog desk and that is a problem I think..

I just hope that the ADA8200 is a little more reliable in absolute.. that is all

[martiaudio]

just for fun!!

[soundchicken]

lol, I've heard that those ampeg tweaters are extremely expressive.

[JLepore]

Actually, the fan noise from that head can be quite impressive ... maybe someone needed a quick white noise generator!

[Andy Hamm]

just for fun!!

This must be one of those bass players that insisted that the soundman use a DI AND a mic.

[Soundguy]

Actually, the fan noise from that head can be quite impressive ... maybe someone needed a quick white noise generator!

They could turn up a Behringer pre without a mic plugged in for that!

[AntonZ]

It is near the end of the year, about the time the ADA8200 should become available according to Uli. I haven't seen any mention of it anymore since late summer. This may be going the same way as several other B products that have been "coming soon" for a very long time. Curious to see when this will actually hit the shelves.

[Carey Langille]

I think i know what the delay is... I asked that they re-design it with 16 channels in a 2 rack space enclosure with all ins and outs on the back and meters. beefy power supply and make it for $200... Im SURE they are doing this!! :p

[AntonZ]

:D

Don't hold your breath ;)

[Mattseymour]

The delay is a problem with supply of the Adat chip. They've been found to be bad, failing with sensitivity to vibration and generally being crap. Actually not behringer's fault this one I don't know if anyone other than wavefront makes a compatible chip.

[Frank Albert]

I reported this problem in Januar 2012 to Wavefront. The affected chips are AL1401 with DateCode 1038A or later. Wavefront is the only manufacturer for these chips.

[Mattseymour]

It ended up effecting the most recently manufactured ADA8000. I bought three and all were bad with the same weird clocking problems. I'm not sure why they haven't recalled what they know is bad stock... but I guess that isn't Uli's style.

[AntonZ]

That is also good to know. Thanks for sharing.

[damongold]

OK, I'll Buy a few and get back to you on how they stand up. More on this after NAMM.

[AntonZ]

Of the ADA8200? They are not shipping yet, as far as I know.

[brent]

The price list for 2013 does not include it.

Starin knows nothing about it. Maybe they will have it under glass at NAMM like they did the X32 for two years. :)