Any way to "create" extra Aux Sends?

[Jeff Scott]

Our Classic Rock Trio played a gig last Saturday at a private function. We're fortunate in that our bass player' wife was a sound Tech out on the road with various bands back in the day and really knows her stuff. Old school analog mixer but weaning her slowly into the SAC way of doing things.

We were setting up the board and she contemplated being able to run a few more Aux sends than the 6 available. Back in the day you'd return back with an unused channel strip.

I can think of a few ways to accomplish this in SAC.....anyone care to comment on their preferences?

[KUI]

Use one of the 24 mixers tapped post fader.

KUI

[cgrafx]

Don't know if this works in SAC or not.. but there is a free "Bus Extension" plug-in that adds 8 additional aux send/returns in the 3rd party plug-ins page on the SAW studio website.

http://www.sawstudio.com/links_plug_ins.htm

On the other hand, I'm guessing that whatever was being considered for the extra Aux sends has more to do with thinking about the mixing console as a traditional single entity analog board rather than a digital one with the flexibility of 25 fully integrated consoles.

[Jeff Scott]

Use one of the 24 mixers tapped post fader.

KUI

Was hoping to be able to access the faders from the Main FOH mixer...but yea...I see that that will work.


Don't know if this works in SAC or not.. but there is a free "Bus Extension" plug-in that adds 8 additional aux send/returns in the 3rd party plug-ins page on the SAW studio website.

http://www.sawstudio.com/links_plug_ins.htm

On the other hand, I'm guessing that whatever was being considered for the extra Aux sends has more to do with thinking about the mixing console as a traditional single entity analog board rather than a digital one with the flexibility of 25 fully integrated consoles.

I think the Buss extension is for SAWStudio only.....and your right....the request was coming from the Sound Tech's analog approach.

[Bob L]

Why the need for more auxes... are you trying to do monitor mixes on the auxes as you would be used to on other consoles... Use the Monitor mixers for that and save the 6 stereo auxes for effects... hard to imagine a real need for more than 6 stereo aux effects sends... thats like 12 normal console auxes.

But... a monitor mixer can be used as an amazingly powerful aux bus... tap it post fader... use the main faders on the moniotr mixer as sends... take the master out 1 and assign it back to the same device outs as the main FOH out... now you have aux sends with eq and dynamics... pretty powerful... and accessing the sends is a mouse click or few keystrokes away... like flipping the page on a typical digital console.

Bob L

[Jeff Scott]

No.....the tech was not trying to do monitor mixes from the FOH. She liked the idea of having the FX return faders available from the FOH mixer. With Vocal and guitar reverbs and delays, along with several different snare and Tom reverbs....it could go over the 6 Returns. I realize that a lot of that could be put on the individual channel.... the tech just liked the control available from a dedicated return. If it arises again...I'll just grab a few unused FOH input channels, duplicate the signal, add FX and chop out the "Dry" / source signal.

[Brent Evans]

Jeff...

For individual channel reverbs you could also use submaster outputs, providing you don't need to group the channels and reverbs in question into submasters.

[RBIngraham]

If you have any unused ADAT I/O ports you could also just use an output as an aux send, albeit with just an on/off switch rather than a variable control. Then hook up a short ADAT cable to loop it back into SAC on an input with the effect. Yeah, that means extra latency on those effects, but most effects are going to have some sort of pre delay or the like anyway, so a few extra ms of delay right off the bat shouldn't be all that big of a deal, especially for stuff like a reverb, etc..

But personally I would just use (and have done this in the past with heavy effect shows) a dedicated monitor console for extra sends and returns. Just set up an F-Key and it's really fast to get there, tweak and get back. Set up scene recalls to turn things on and off, set levels, etc...

I typically use Monitor Mixer 1 for that task when I need to do so. That way on all the other monitor consoles (2-24), I can tap their returns either from FOH or Monitor Mixer 1.

[ssrsound]

Generally when I want to do that, I use the AUXs re-order the channels so that the AUX is wherever it is convenient to use it. That turns out to be almost exactly the same thing as returning to a channel.

But I've never wanted to use more than six different effects at once in a show. I'll use 3 at most... a vocal effect, a snare/percussion effect, and maybe something different for the lead singer. In general I want my whole group to sound like they're in the same room, so having drastically different effects on each instrument gets weird.

splitting the signal and putting the effect directly on the 2nd channel works well, though. I used to do that a lot on analog boards when I wanted a short delay on the lead vocalist... split the signal, and put the delay on the 2nd channel's insert. Using submixes for this works too.

[Soundguy]

hard to imagine a real need for more than 6 stereo aux effects sends... thats like 12 normal console auxes.


No, it isn't. In live sound mixing, 12 "normal console aux sends" are far superior to 6 "stereo" aux send, which are typically just a distraction from the music, or a just a big PITA to figure out unnecessary and unintuitive Left and Right panning when the heat is on and a performance is going on the stage.

Soundguy

[JLepore]

The only time I usually use stereo INPUTS to effects are when coming from subgroups (which you don't support anyway). I can easily use up more than 6 effects sends on larger shows. I never mix instruments types in my reverbs. Horns, keys, drums, perc, etc. all get their own. Most consoles have 8, 16, or 24 sends these days.

[gdougherty]

In those cases I'd tend to subgroup and insert the effect on that where static effects make sense. I'd use the auxes then for vocal effects or things I want to continuously vary through the show.

[JLepore]

In those cases I'd tend to subgroup and insert the effect on that where static effects make sense. I'd use the auxes then for vocal effects or things I want to continuously vary through the show.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work when you want the levels to be different between instruments going to the group. Different horns will get different amounts of verb, just as different drums would get different amounds of verb.

I do insert other things, such as comps, etc. directly on the groups.

[RBIngraham]

I guess I don't see this as a huge deal. Yes, it would be nice to have more than 6 aux send/returns. And the fact that they are stereo while useless most days can be useful once in a while. I make use of the stereo aspect anyway, although not for a send to an effect.

In the end you can use multiple monitor consoles worth of aux sends and returns and have A LOT (I am not actually going to pull a Donnie and start counting 6 aux sends x 25 mixers, because that would be ridiculous first of all and your CPU would probably crap out with that many verb or delay plugs running anyway...) effects you could control.

For now if you need to control those feeds from the FOH mixer you can just double the input to an unused channel and have one be the dry and the other be the wet.

If the Latch Outputs across multiple consoles feature is released then you could also Latch a FOH Output to an Output in a monitor console and you could use that similar to a return control level without ever having to leave the FOH mixer.

Or you if comfortable with F Keys (as I usually am) you just hit and F-Key, got to the monitor console and set your verb levels. If you have a control surface they can be used similar to a sends on fader type feature.

Basically the way I see it is... yes there are things I'd love to see improved in SAC, although there are several others I think are far more important than this, obviously it's personal what would be a priority. But there are plenty of limiting factors in every console I've used just about. It's rare that I don't have to think of some work around at some point in just about every show I design. So sure maybe I would have more aux sends and some consoles even allow for user assignable numbers of sends depending on DSP, but there are usually other things missing in those products as well. Just different things.

[gdougherty]

Unfortunately, that doesn't work when you want the levels to be different between instruments going to the group. Different horns will get different amounts of verb, just as different drums would get different amounds of verb.

I do insert other things, such as comps, etc. directly on the groups.

I guess I just don't go to quite as much effort. I've got 6 effects on my Beach Boys gig and 5 of those are for vocals (I keep 3 different verbs on hand for easy switching between songs without worrying about scenes.) The remaining one is for drums and they all get the same space. My standard layout is vox verb, vox delay, a generic instrument verb and a drum verb. I could do more, but I'm usually worried about other aspects of the mix. Most of what I do doesn't warrant more effort though.

[dbarrow]

I guess I just don't go to quite as much effort. I've got 6 effects on my Beach Boys gig and 5 of those are for vocals (I keep 3 different verbs on hand for easy switching between songs without worrying about scenes.) The remaining one is for drums and they all get the same space. My standard layout is vox verb, vox delay, a generic instrument verb and a drum verb. I could do more, but I'm usually worried about other aspects of the mix. Most of what I do doesn't warrant more effort though.
I concur. Anything beyond the six auxes, I would "solve" with the additional mixers, having copied channels going to a sub with the extra effect, or putting individual effects on channels. I would like to hear a mix that had tons of extra effects, just to hear what I am missing. Beyond a certain level of complexity, it seems like you would have to manage all this with scenes vs. dynamically tweaking so many parameters on multiple channels during a song.

There was a guy in the SAW forum that wanted 500+ stereo track, etc. I would also like to hear one of those mixes. I am not discounting the possibilities. I would just like to hear examples that are so far outside my current experience. If it is a huge improvement, I want to try it myself...

[JLepore]

Here's one with 7. Bonus points to anyone that can figure out all 7.

Since it's from camera audio, it might be a heck of a trick, though I have to say, I was impressed when I heard it. Realized the guy must have been standing 20 feet away from me - Wished I threw him a line from the board, but it was a really good reality check!

http://youtu.be/AVP2WyCI-P8

An alternate from the same show: http://youtu.be/ub7QCxWYKmg

[Larry Burger]

Jeff,
CGRAFX has the link to the Buss extender.
You are correct it is for S.A.W. but it will work in S.A.C..
Everyone seems to direct you to good solutions but if your sound person feels she wants more that would provide 8 more.
There is a little work to make it...
If you install and change the name to sac from sawstudio there will be a message stating the native data file is not there.
It will place the bussfader.dll in the SAC native directory.
You will need to open SAC_FX_Native file in notepad and place bussfader.dll on its own line.
You MUST hit return before you save.
And you can place the plugin on a channel pre or post but on the channel you return to must be set FX Src on the input at the top.
So a little work for what the other options are...

Hope it helps...

[Donnie Frank]

Here's one with 7. Bonus points to anyone that can figure out all 7.

Since it's from camera audio, it might be a heck of a trick, though I have to say, I was impressed when I heard it. Realized the guy must have been standing 20 feet away from me - Wished I threw him a line from the board, but it was a really good reality check!

http://youtu.be/AVP2WyCI-P8

An alternate from the same show: http://youtu.be/ub7QCxWYKmg

I love these guys...good music...great gimmick. By all logic, the drummer should be playing keyboards with his feet...just sayin'...<;^)

Edit: I realize the 4 kick drums is just a gimmick. But I see that they're all mic'ed up. Did you just take the best of the 4? Or maybe biased the best of the 4? Or bias the drummer's kick? Seems having all 4 open and equal might be a recipe for disaster. If I were in a band like that, I would have all the peripheral "bass drummers" queue off the "lead kick," which would naturally be the drummer. Is this what they did?

[Donnie Frank]

In a pinch I bag the Aux send and plug the effect directly into the channel that needs it. Naturally there are many caveats to this method. But in some instances it works...like static reverb on acoustic guitar or saxophone or a dedicated harmonica mic, for instance. This would free up Aux sends for other things. Other than the obvious caveats, is there a reason this wouldn't work?

[Jeff Scott]

Jeff,
CGRAFX has the link to the Buss extender.
You are correct it is for S.A.W. but it will work in S.A.C..
Everyone seems to direct you to good solutions but if your sound person feels she wants more that would provide 8 more.
There is a little work to make it...
If you install and change the name to sac from sawstudio there will be a message stating the native data file is not there.
It will place the bussfader.dll in the SAC native directory.
You will need to open SAC_FX_Native file in notepad and place bussfader.dll on its own line.
You MUST hit return before you save.
And you can place the plugin on a channel pre or post but on the channel you return to must be set FX Src on the input at the top.
So a little work for what the other options are...

Hope it helps...

That's great Larry...I gave up after I got the error message.

[JLepore]

All 4 kicks are mic'd because all 4 are used. The main drummer (BD2) is always playing. The others come and go based on dynamics of the song, and what else they are trying to play at the same time. Each is tuned slightly differently and blend together really nicely. You will note, the don't have holes in them either ... and are being fed back to them in their wedges. It's called having a great monitor guy on the gig. I love mixing these guys.

1 of the verbs is on all the kicks but the main one. 6 more to go....

These guys are the real deal. Takes talent to make 4 kicks line up while playing with that intensity. No problem getting a good vocal level off Gabe.

[Donnie Frank]

All 4 kicks are mic'd because all 4 are used. The main drummer (BD2) is always playing. The others come and go based on dynamics of the song, and what else they are trying to play at the same time. Each is tuned slightly differently and blend together really nicely. You will note, the don't have holes in them either ...



That's what made me wonder. I sometimes mic kicks with no hole from the batter side. I thought the mic's might be props or "placating the artist" (as we sometimes do). Obviously not.




and are being fed back to them in their wedges. It's called having a great monitor guy on the gig. I love mixing these guys.



When I said "queue off the drummer," I was thinking that BD2 was in all the wedges and then each guy queued off BD2. Just thinking out loud here - please correct me if I'm wrong - but it would seem useless and confusing to have all 4 kicks in all 4 wedges. The only reason I ask is on the way off chance that I ever run into this type of situation, it would be nice to have a heads up of what you guys did for them.




1 of the verbs is on all the kicks but the main one. 6 more to go....

These guys are the real deal. Takes talent to make 4 kicks line up while playing with that intensity. No problem getting a good vocal level off Gabe.

Yeah...they look like they were an easy band to mix...and outdoors...that's like a wet dream in my world. Great job. The sound is pristine. Thanx for answering my questions.

[JLepore]

What you don't see is the enourmous church (concrete) wall 50 feet from my house left array which acts as a mirror back to the stage. Not quite as easy as you think it is.