saw studio cd different than recording

[Steven Hayes]

Everything sounds great on the studio monitors mix is perfect after i run peak limiter and normalizer on the mix and when i put it on a cd it sounds like junk is there any tips on what for me to try different.

[Brent Evans]

Are you normalizing to at least -1db? Some CD players can't handle signals that are excessively loud (approaching 0db). After you render, try the master WAV file in another player program to verify the file. Try a different burning program, try a different CD player... eliminate one piece of the puzzle at a time.

[Bob L]

If you have built the final mix as a finished wave file... and you play that and it sounds perfect... and then transfer that to CD and it sounds bad... it would seem something is going wrong with the software burning the cd, or there is a possible clocking issue with the cd which may be causing a large amount of tracking errors on the cd playback itself... or some other possible hardware issue with the cd itself causing errors during playback... have you tried playing back the cd on different players?

Bob L

[Soundguy]

Everything sounds great on the studio monitors mix is perfect after i run peak limiter and normalizer on the mix and when i put it on a cd it sounds like junk is there any tips on what for me to try different.

There should not be any big difference in the sound when the 16 bit mixed file is played back out of your computer sound card or a CD running through the same audio path. (amps, speakers, etc,)

Sounds like there is an error in your mastering process, or a flaw in your playback path. It could be many things. Be specific on how you are "building the mix" to a master file (where limiter is patched, etc) , and how you are creating the CD and I'm sure someone can help.

Soundguy

[Steven Hayes]

I mix everything and then select the loudest part of mix and then run the peak limiter and normalize to 96% then unselect and build mix file totally and then burn to cd

[Bob L]

But... does the finished buildmix file sound perfect... or are you possibly causing artifacts with the limiter settings.

Listen to the buildmix file before burning to cd... is it ok?

Bob L

[Steven Hayes]

It sounds good on the studio monitors.. and sounds good on a bose radio but sounds bad in cars and headphones

[Steven Hayes]

In the studio monitors and wave radio it has a great sound buyt in the car and headphones its tinny sounding and has no body to the sound

[Steven Hayes]

There the m-audio bx8 studio monitors.. what do i need to do to my control room as far as accoustically.. its an office in our house and it has a hardwood floor.

[Steven Hayes]

Im think there could be a frequency buildup in my control room

[Bob L]

Try playing a few commercial cds that you feel are good recordings... make sure that on the studio monitors it is not overly bass heavy... if so... you have to adjust the eq in the monitors to a more flat response... so when you mix, you actually put more low end in the mix... then when you take the mix out of the control room, it will be more balanced on other systems.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Are your monitors at or near walls/floor/corners in the room? That will exaggerate the bass. Some monitors (like my HR824's) have frequency response contour switches as an attempt to address such situations. Always better to get the speakers away from such surfaces, though, if possible.

Some info (http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neumann-kh/glossary.nsf/root/AE6CD58C54C9ACA2C12578B2005AB11E?Open&term=loading).

[Carl G.]

Im think there could be a frequency buildup in my control room

For starters, try buying some area throw rugs... and hanging some drapes on the walls. Keep speakers off the floor and away from wall...
Make sure you have a flat monitor amp (if powered that way)...
and (as Bob mentioned) put an EQ in the monitoring path to 'carefully' adjust as needed (with a known 'sound' you trust). That will help you get near the ballpark.
You might also consider real small nearfield monitors as a 'check mix' alternate.

A pair of Sony MDR-V6 headphones will also put you in the ball park (though their known to sometimes distort the bass when cranked)...that's an inexpensive way to get a fair idea of a decent speaker mix.

[Dave Labrecque]

For starters, try buying some area throw rugs... and hanging some drapes on the walls. Keep speakers off the floor and away from wall...
Make sure you have a flat monitor amp (if powered that way)...
and (as Bob mentioned) put an EQ in the monitoring path to 'carefully' adjust as needed (with a known 'sound' you trust). That will help you get near the ballpark.
You might also consider real small nearfield monitors as a 'check mix' alternate.

A pair of Sony MDR-V6 headphones will also put you in the ball park (though their known to sometimes distort the bass when cranked)...that's an inexpensive way to get a fair idea of a decent speaker mix.

I would only say that rugs and drapes won't do much at all for bass. And that I'd avoid putting anything like an EQ in line (unless it's a really, really good one) unless there were no other options.

[Ian Alexander]

I'm no acoustician, but it seems that once you accept the concept of standing waves, you start to understand that "response curves" are different every time you move your head a bit. In other words, you'd need a different EQ for each different place your ears, or your client, might be. If that's so, then EQ isn't the answer. Room treatment might be it.

[Bob L]

Listen on the MDR-V6 headphones (~$79)... this removes the room... if the mix sounds good there, it will work everywhere... compare with the sound of some of your favorite cds... ones that you would like your mixes to match... easy.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

I'm no acoustician, but it seems that once you accept the concept of standing waves, you start to understand that "response curves" are different every time you move your head a bit. In other words, you'd need a different EQ for each different place your ears, or your client, might be. If that's so, then EQ isn't the answer. Room treatment might be it.

As I understand it, if you do have standing waves, then you need treatment. The treatment soaks up the energy, rather than reflecting it back, which is what causes the buildup when the waves reinforce each other. So, if you can cut down on the standing waves via treatment and room dimensions/geometry, you can move your head around and not have to worry about variations in the response. Of course, it's pretty much always a 'do the best you can' situation where you end up striking a balance between budget, the room you have, treatment and actual know-how (which is pretty fleeting with this kind of thing -- at least in my case). :)

[Jeff Scott]

Check out this article from Ethan Winer's Acoustics Forum. It explains what's happening in a given acoustic space and what you need to do about it. Probably answer most of your questions. I'm in the process of building a number of Bass traps, Mid Hi diffusors and Broadband absorbers for my studio space, based on Ethan's designs and recommendations.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

[CurtZHP]

What are the dimensions of the room?

[Ian Alexander]

As I understand it, if you do have standing waves, then you need treatment. The treatment soaks up the energy, rather than reflecting it back, which is what causes the buildup when the waves reinforce each other. So, if you can cut down on the standing waves via treatment and room dimensions/geometry, you can move your head around and not have to worry about variations in the response. Of course, it's pretty much always a 'do the best you can' situation where you end up striking a balance between budget, the room you have, treatment and actual know-how (which is pretty fleeting with this kind of thing -- at least in my case). :)

Exactly.

[Steven Hayes]

Its a 12x14 square room with a 10 ft celling

[Soundguy]

So it's obviously the mix processing plug-ins, the mastering process, the speakers, the position of the speakers, the room EQ or lack thereof, the heaphones, the CD player tracking, the room acoustics, the dimensions of the room, some standing waves, and/or the throw rugs, drapes or all of the above or various combinations.

What is the latitude and longitude of your location, and the temperature and humidity at the time you burned the CD? Check for low and high tides.:)

Soundguy

[Steven Hayes]

Does the last two things take into play on the final outcome

[Jeff Scott]

Seriously Steven....spend some time over at Ethan Winer's Forum and read the article I posted. It'll answer about 90% of your questions and provide the solutions.:)

[UpTilDawn]

Originally Posted by Dave Labrecque
...Of course, ... actual know-how (which is pretty fleeting with this kind of thing -- at least in my case). :)



Exactly.

Oooo! That's harsh, Ian! :p :D

I'll stick up for ya, Dave! ;)

[RobertV]

Spend some time reading the "acoustic faq" to start understanding the issues in the studiotips forum site.
Also be aware that Ethan Winers "solutions" cause quite a bit of controversy, best to have a look at both to get a balanced view.

http://forum.studiotips.com/index.php

All in all, getting a pair if MDR-V6 phones is a good (and cheap) short term solution.

Good luck
Robert V

[Dave Labrecque]

Oooo! That's harsh, Ian! :p :D

I'll stick up for ya, Dave! ;)

Yeah. I wasn't going to say anything. ;)

[Ian Alexander]

Oooo! That's harsh, Ian! :p :D

I'll stick up for ya, Dave! ;)
:mad: ;)

[Carl G.]

I'm no acoustician, but it seems that once you accept the concept of standing waves, you start to understand that "response curves" are different every time you move your head a bit. In other words, you'd need a different EQ for each different place your ears, or your client, might be. If that's so, then EQ isn't the answer. Room treatment might be it.

Good point... I just checked out the idea by trying a subwoofer placed under a desk to create some real standing waves .. Bass response totally changes within a foot or two!

[Carl G.]

Does the last two things take into play on the final outcome ... (low and high tides)

Yes... if your studio can't keep its head above water :)

[MikeDee]

Although a number of users might dismiss the Focusrite VRM Box as nothing more than a set of hyped-EQ'd presets, I've gotten very góòd results with it. The headphone amp is high quality as well...I get a nice, hot signal with no noise or distortion.

Ok, I'm sure the V6's I use help as well. :rolleyes:

Best regards...glad to be back! :)

[Steven Hayes]

Although a number of users might dismiss the Focusrite VRM Box as nothing more than a set of hyped-EQ'd presets, I've gotten very góòd results with it. The headphone amp is high quality as well...I get a nice, hot signal with no noise or distortion.

Ok, I'm sure the V6's I use help as well.


What do you use the focusrite box for. I cant help think we are missing something the music is blended great in studio monitors but when you play back the cd in the car theres to much bass and everything is muddy sounding. we have even tried running an offboard eq to flatten the studio monitors and emulate what you hear on a regular radio by using a commercially mixed cd. Any tips?

[Soundguy]

I cant help think we are missing something the music is blended great in studio monitors but when you play back the cd in the car theres to much bass and everything is muddy sounding. we have even tried running an offboard eq to flatten the studio monitors and emulate what you hear on a regular radio by using a commercially mixed cd. Any tips?

Yeah, here's a tip. Take the EQ off of your monitors. Trying to emulate what you hear on the radio is an absolutely horrible idea. Even trying to emulate what you hear on a CD is missing the mastering process that is used to make everything sound the same .... excessively loud and bright ... and not necessarily what it sounded like in the artist's studio at all.

Other than that, you are very vague in describing your work environment, so you are only getting very general advice.

What kind of monitors and amps are you using in your mixing room? Are you mixing in the box or do you have an outboard mixing console?

And when you play back your burned CD in the same audio path that you mixed on ... does it sound the same? It should. If it doesn't, start there to solve the first of your problems.

Soundguy

[Steven Hayes]

im in a home office environment. im using m-audio bx8 reference monitors and using a behringer bcf200 control surface. ill describe the steps i use

1.Record
2.Mix
3.Run levelizer on post output 1
4. Run Peak Limiter
5. normalize to 96%
6. build mix
7. burn cd in eac

then in a car radio or any radio there are excessive low frequencies. boomy muddy sounding.. I haven even tried running my audio through adobe audition to master my cd before burning with the same final outcome

[Grekim]

Using the Levelizer and mixing in the computer has nothing to do with the low frequency problems. As mentioned it's most likely bad speaker placement and insufficient room treatment, and possibly the monitors themselves and what you expect to hear out of them. If you have a laptop running SAW, an interesting thing to try would be to do a build mix in the studio without the Levelizer and keep the mix 24 bit. Then bring your speakers into another room, maybe a bigger one, and listen to the mix. How does the low end sound now? If it's heavy then patch an EQ before the Levelizer. Levelize as before, burn a CD and compare to your previous tries of mastering in your studio room.

[Dave Labrecque]

im in a home office environment. im using m-audio bx8 reference monitors and using a behringer bcf200 control surface. ill describe the steps i use

1.Record
2.Mix
3.Run levelizer on post output 1
4. Run Peak Limiter
5. normalize to 96%
6. build mix
7. burn cd in eac

then in a car radio or any radio there are excessive low frequencies. boomy muddy sounding.. I haven even tried running my audio through adobe audition to master my cd before burning with the same final outcome

Steven -- if you play a commercial CD in your studio (the system/room you mix on/in), what does the bottom end sound like? My guess is that is sounds pretty thin. And that would be a clear indication that the monitors and/or room need some work to give you an accurate (relatively flat) response in which to create mixes that will translate well everywhere else in the world.

[Soundguy]

Steven -- if you play a commercial CD in your studio (the system/room you mix on/in), what does the bottom end sound like? My guess is that is sounds pretty thin. And that would be a clear indication that the monitors and/or room need some work to give you an accurate (relatively flat) response in which to create mixes that will translate well everywhere else in the world.

I agree that playing back a CD in the "studio" or whatever environment is used for mixing is the place to start. However chasing a mix of a mastered CD for tone , with an unmastered "mix" is not the solution either.

The OP has not yet answered the basic question:

When you burn a CD of your mix, does the CD sound like the mix WHEN PLAYED BACK IN THE SAME SYSTEM?

Trying to adjust EQ and/or compression or your mix so it sounds totally different in your car than in your mix room is a horrible approach that will never solve anything.

Soundguy

[Dave Labrecque]

However chasing a mix of a mastered CD for tone , with an unmastered "mix" is not the solution either.

Sorry, not following you. What does this mean?

[Soundguy]

Sorry, not following you. What does this mean?

I meant to say that a popular commercial CD has likely been through a "mastering" process beyond the final mix ... usually consisting of heavy compression and EQ to sound louder and brighter than everything else.:)

... so your final mix as you listen in your studio is unlikely to be as loud and as bright when comparing to CDs. The inexperienced trying to obtain that sound will probably be unsuccessful, or just make a bigger mess of things.

Soundguy

[UpTilDawn]

I meant to say that a popular commercial CD has likely been through a "mastering" process beyond the final mix ... usually consisting of heavy compression and EQ to sound louder and brighter than everything else.:)

... so your final mix as you listen in your studio is unlikely to be as loud and as bright when comparing to CDs. The inexperienced trying to obtain that sound will probably be unsuccessful, or just make a bigger mess of things.

Soundguy

Novice status aside, I'm not sure I agree with this point of view, since we often reference our desired mix sounds based on commercially produced CD's as a way of "learning" how our monitoring environment translates those product and then make adjustments to our mixes to "match". I recall it being recommended to me often in the past and, in fact, having used this method quite successfully to gain a more detailed knowledge of how to get the sound/mix I was after.

Being "unsuccessful" in the attempt can only lead to eventual success in the right hands, with the right mindset, afterall.

Or did I misread your comments?

[Soundguy]

Novice status aside, I'm not sure I agree with this point of view, since we often reference our desired mix sounds based on commercially produced CD's as a way of "learning" how our monitoring environment translates those product and then make adjustments to our mixes to "match".

Maybe you do, but "WE" don't reference our mixes to commercial CDs for final comparison. At least I don't, nor do most other engineers involved with popular commercial releases ... at least not the ones I know.

Sure, I/we listen to CDs in the studio to hear what other folks are doing, just like we listen to music in our cars and on the radio at home, but none of the above is the benchmark for judging the level and sonic quality of your final mix ... or it certainly shouldn't be. If you're EQing the crap out of a vocal to make it sound like a commercial CD, you are certainly barking up the wrong tree.

Perhaps I've been doing this longer than some folks here, but I am well aware of what the mastering process brings to the final product, and what specialized equipment and skill set is required for that final step. At the mixing stage, folks should focus on relationships between instruments and vocals, etc.,

Leave mastering to an experienced mastering engineer if you are preparing for product release, and want to sound more like a commercial CD ... if you are at that point of needing to be sonically competitive.

If someone really doesn't know what "mastering" is, then they are certainly not at that point, so carry on.

The OP seemed to be having a problem with his mixes not sounding as he expects them to when he burns a CD. I suspect this is probably part of the problem.

Soundguy

[UpTilDawn]

Maybe you do, but "WE" don't reference our mixes to commercial CDs for final comparison. At least I don't, nor do most other engineers involved with popular commercial releases ... at least not the ones I know.

Sure, I/we listen to CDs in the studio to hear what other folks are doing, just like we listen to music in our cars and on the radio at home, but none of the above is the benchmark for judging the level and sonic quality of your final mix ... or it certainly shouldn't be. If you're EQing the crap out of a vocal to make it sound like a commercial CD, you are certainly barking up the wrong tree.

Perhaps I've been doing this longer than some folks here, but I am well aware of what the mastering process brings to the final product, and what specialized equipment and skill set is required for that final step. At the mixing stage, folks should focus on relationships between instruments and vocals, etc.,

Leave mastering to an experienced mastering engineer if you are preparing for product release, and want to sound more like a commercial CD ... if you are at that point of needing to be sonically competitive.

If someone really doesn't know what "mastering" is, then they are certainly not at that point, so carry on.

The OP seemed to be having a problem with his mixes not sounding as he expects them to when he burns a CD. I suspect this is probably part of the problem.

Soundguy

Well, I did mention that this has been used as part of a "learning" process for many..... certainly not the end-all, or final word on mastering.

In the OP's situation, maybe the problem he's having stems from a little bit of everything people have been suggesting. Guess we won't know until the OP posts back with results.

[Dave Labrecque]

I meant to say that a popular commercial CD has likely been through a "mastering" process beyond the final mix ... usually consisting of heavy compression and EQ to sound louder and brighter than everything else.:)

... so your final mix as you listen in your studio is unlikely to be as loud and as bright when comparing to CDs. The inexperienced trying to obtain that sound will probably be unsuccessful, or just make a bigger mess of things.

Soundguy

I kinda agree, but that's not what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that he take a commercial CD that he's intimately familiar with and listen to it in his room. Should be a good way to see if there are any big issues in the spectral response of the room, like something that would make his mixes sound thin (too much bass in the room).