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JLepore
09-10-2012, 02:23 PM
From a Show last night running monitors. Hardwire CAT5 link to host machine. Running on a full PC with SAC Remote.


Flipping around between mixes just using F-keys gets the Output Solo mode ("green" solo mode) confused sometimes.

Doing a show where I had to keep moving between 6 ear mixes (5 band members and a "private" mix for myself). Assigned 6 F keys to do nothing but change mixer number. Left system in "output solo mode" so that I can hear whatever mix I flip to in my cans. After a few "can't hear what I'm changing" moments, I realized, I was still listening to a different mix than I was looking at. Moving to other mixes, and the solo in my head didn't change, even though the solo light on the output of the current mixer was the one lit. Disengage solo mode, re-engage it, and it all started tracking again - for a while.

Happened a few times in a 90 minute set. Between that and the solo-delay bug, made it a real uncomfortable show to mix.

Talking with another user on the other board, it seems like this may already have been a known issue that was ignored (or worse).

gdougherty
09-10-2012, 03:47 PM
As noted on SacTalk, it's likely not an issue with f-keys, but caused by the solo mode being disrupted every time you do a recall operation of any setting on any channel.

Bob's initial response to my claim that it was output channels only indicated he didn't view this as a bug. Hopefully that determination is changed now that I've discovered it happens any time you recall channel settings. While it may not crash SAC, it's very undesirable behavior in the opinion of everyone I've shared it with. I've already submitted it as another bug request. I can update either here if the thread still exists or over at SACTalk on what the verdict is.

JeremyJo
09-10-2012, 08:41 PM
That's so strange to me, because JLepore's description of his setup is much like what we do with some seven iem mixes and a stereo wedge mix and we haven't had that problem.

Did you use O1 as the output for each mix? Stereo?

any plugins on outputs? We have limiters installed on each monitor output.

We set the solo chase and the monitor op listens to each mix in turn. Our host is our monitor mix position though. Our wired remote is foh. I do solo mixes now and then, but maybe not as much as ?

Just trying to understand what you're experiencing.

jJ

gdougherty
09-10-2012, 08:56 PM
That's so strange to me, because JLepore's description of his setup is much like what we do with some seven iem mixes and a stereo wedge mix and we haven't had that problem.

Did you use O1 as the output for each mix? Stereo?

any plugins on outputs? We have limiters installed on each monitor output.

We set the solo chase and the monitor op listens to each mix in turn. Our host is our monitor mix position though. Our wired remote is foh. I do solo mixes now and then, but maybe not as much as ?

Just trying to understand what you're experiencing.

jJ
In discussion on SACTalk, Joe mentioned he was doing EQ copy operations between channels. That would hit the bug I described and is the more likely explanation than a bug with f-keys that no one else has come across.

I regularly use f-keys on our setup at church to jump between channel locations and across mixers to get a fader pack where it needs to go. I've never had problems with f-keys outside of making sure the appropriate mixer view is selected and stored so the fader pack actually tracks to the window it's locked to.

The channel copy bug/feature is very easily repeatable and happens anywhere and everywhere with the engine live or not. Given that most users don't spend their entire session copying settings between channels it initially gives the appearance of some random event snapping the solo out of output mode.

Bob L
09-10-2012, 09:27 PM
I am looking into the chan recall issue... I am guessing the issue Joe ran into may not be connected with the FKeys either... but may be connected to the chan recall settings deal.

Bob L

JLepore
09-10-2012, 10:58 PM
That's so strange to me, because JLepore's description of his setup is much like what we do with some seven iem mixes and a stereo wedge mix and we haven't had that problem.

Did you use O1 as the output for each mix? Stereo?

any plugins on outputs? We have limiters installed on each monitor output.

We set the solo chase and the monitor op listens to each mix in turn. Our host is our monitor mix position though. Our wired remote is foh. I do solo mixes now and then, but maybe not as much as ?

Just trying to understand what you're experiencing.

jJ

Yes, Output 1 on each monitor console (1 acting as master, 2-8 for the mixes)
The only output plug was bob's EQ
Technically stereo outs (only using one side and skipping every other output) Nothing panned, so same effect as mono
No output limiting - just the limiters on the ear packs themselves.

Yes, I did a bunch of EQ copies between mixers getting things sounding different for different people.

Bob L
09-10-2012, 11:30 PM
When you used the chan recall function, did you not notice the green solo light change to a flashing red one... that signals that solo chase mode has been disengaged... you currently have to reset that mode after using the chan recall function to copy eqs.

This is the issue that George is asking me to look into.

Bob L

Bob L
09-11-2012, 06:44 AM
Ok... I took George's suggestion and made a change in the chan recall code to ignore solo switch settings in the recall, which then leaves the current active solo mode unchanged... and I don't feel any real loss that the solo switch setting is not transferred to other chans thru the use of the recall function.

Whenever an operation can alter the solo switch data anywhere on the console, canceling chase solo modes is much easier and safer to handle in the code, because those modes depend on a sequence of events connected to what order the solos were pressed which then override other modes and keep track of how to step out backwards thru the various modes... that code can get very tricky to modify and would require more trouble and debugging than I am willing to devote at this time... maybe later.

Bob L

JLepore
09-11-2012, 08:29 AM
When you used the chan recall function, did you not notice the green solo light change to a flashing red one... that signals that solo chase mode has been disengaged... you currently have to reset that mode after using the chan recall function to copy eqs.

This is the issue that George is asking me to look into.

Bob L

No, the solo light never went to flashing red.

Bob L
09-11-2012, 10:34 AM
Well... another Joe mystery bug then... on all my machines here testing, the chan recall flips the solo mode to a red flashing lite.

Well... I have changed that... as soon as I get this update out the door, you can try it and see if that helps with what you ran into also... I believe that it will.

Unfortunately once again... I can not seem to duplicate the FKey switching mixers problem... they switch perfectly and the green chase solo mode does not disengage here. :confused:

Bob L

JLepore
09-11-2012, 12:09 PM
Well... another Joe mystery bug then...


Kindly follow your own rules.

I have accurately reported a behavior I experienced. It has been previously reported by another user apparently. Why do you feel the need to minimize a fault discovered in the software by again blaming me for it?

Mr Loud
09-11-2012, 01:04 PM
It sounds like you were mixing the mons from SACRemote, could it be a SACRemote bug?

gdougherty
09-11-2012, 01:37 PM
I have accurately reported a behavior I experienced. It has been previously reported by another user apparently. Why do you feel the need to minimize a fault discovered in the software by again blaming me for it?


Joe, maybe you didn't notice the solo light change? That's consistent behavior for me when I recall the channel settings. It's easy to miss which is why the recall changing the mode has been an annoyance to me. I'm focused on other areas of the screen, not the top left corner.

Thanks Bob for putting in the fix for that. It'll make my life significantly better during stageside setup not to have to worry about the solo mode flipping out of output solo mode once I turn it on.

Now if only we could get the solo mode to remember itself between sessions. I'd be fine with the output solo mode resetting itself to the mixer output between sessions and ignoring the last selected channel. It'd just be nice to start SAC and have one less thing to set before I get to work. Preferences and sessions store most everything else. I've gotten used to turning it back on and it doesn't ruin my day, it's just that I usually forget it's not on and go through that "oh yeah" moment most of the time.

Bob L
09-11-2012, 05:03 PM
Joe... I was not being sarcastic at all... all I was saying is we have the same mystery... I can not duplicate the issue.

George... the output chase solo mode is complex... and it is not something that can be started up easily at the beginning of things... as I mentioned, it can depend on the order of events of which solos were pressed first in order to step backwards out of the cascading levels in the proper sequence...

So... starting the program and then engaging the solo mode is a very non-issue thing as far as I am concerned... I definitely believe the console should startup in a non-solo engaged mode.

Bob L

gdougherty
09-11-2012, 08:36 PM
Joe... I was not being sarcastic at all... all I was saying is we have the same mystery... I can not duplicate the issue.

George... the output chase solo mode is complex... and it is not something that can be started up easily at the beginning of things... as I mentioned, it can depend on the order of events of which solos were pressed first in order to step backwards out of the cascading levels in the proper sequence...

So... starting the program and then engaging the solo mode is a very non-issue thing as far as I am concerned... I definitely believe the console should startup in a non-solo engaged mode.

Bob L

I see what you're saying. I'm not asking that it start in output solo mode and if I had channel 5 soloed last time it start with channel 5 soloed allowing me to turn it off and go back into output solo mode. I'm thinking if it were in output solo mode last time, this time it would initialize like it does now, then do the equivalent of clicking on the solo button to engage output solo mode. Nothing else to track, just that SAC would remember I prefer output solo mode and kick it in for me, just like it remembers the settings for my fader pack and default f-key preferences.

Bob L
09-12-2012, 06:20 AM
Well... there would be more work needed to be done to store and re-initialize the current solo mode status due to the complexity of the various solo modes available... and then to also synchronize all remotes to the proper condition... right now... its safer to init as it does and then you can simply select whatever solo mode you need... its not such a big deal to click a few buttons to get ready to do a show. :)

In fact... I am thinking of forcing all solos OFF when first loading a saved session which may have had solos engaged... we'll see.

Bob L

gdougherty
09-12-2012, 09:18 AM
Well... there would be more work needed to be done to store and re-initialize the current solo mode status due to the complexity of the various solo modes available... and then to also synchronize all remotes to the proper condition... right now... its safer to init as it does and then you can simply select whatever solo mode you need... its not such a big deal to click a few buttons to get ready to do a show. :)

In fact... I am thinking of forcing all solos OFF when first loading a saved session which may have had solos engaged... we'll see.

Bob L

What sync do the remotes get? If its on FOH and mon they don't share and unless you changed things, sharing the solo among multiple FOH remotes all kind of did their own thing anyway.

Bob L
09-12-2012, 09:53 AM
If you chase solo green on a FOH remote, other FOH remotes are not in chase mode and the host is not in chase mode... only the remote that activated chase solo mode... it gets tricky to initialize these combinations when first loading a session or modifying any solo data from recalls and files.

If I felt it was extremely necessary to make this happen, I am sure I could work thru the details... but I feel I would rather spend my time on other things that can really enhance the SAC mixing experience.

Clearing solos on these operations and then having to click the solo button to activate it when you first need it is not the slightest inconvenience, in my opinion, compared to the possible complications and confusion having these modes initialize automatically might cause.

For the moment, I have put it on the list.

Thanks,

Bob L

RandyHyde
09-12-2012, 10:30 AM
Clearing solos on these operations and then having to click the solo button to activate it when you first need it is not the slightest inconvenience, in my opinion, compared to the possible complications and confusion having these modes initialize automatically might cause.


Good point.

Lurking around this thread, I've always been wondering what the unintended consequences of such a change might be. Solving a problem for one person could be very well creating a problem for someone else.

Not saying Bob shouldn't consider the change; just noting that any such change should be carefully thought out to determine what it will break in existing systems.

This doesn't seem to be a bug fix, but a feature change. And that type of change is always problematic.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

gdougherty
09-12-2012, 06:52 PM
Good point.

Lurking around this thread, I've always been wondering what the unintended consequences of such a change might be. Solving a problem for one person could be very well creating a problem for someone else.

Not saying Bob shouldn't consider the change; just noting that any such change should be carefully thought out to determine what it will break in existing systems.

This doesn't seem to be a bug fix, but a feature change. And that type of change is always problematic.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

Very true.

I'd actually think/expect that any instance host/remote would track to the same solo state based on the permissions it's set to. In that case I view the solo state as the same thing as a channel state, though tied to the permissions assigned to the instance. I don't often run more than one FOH/MON instance at a time, but I could see having a stationary FOH with fader surface in a traditional position and a tablet FOH for roaming the venue. In that case it would be nice to have a wireless solo device that would track either instance of SAC and not have to worry about managing the modes since modifying solo on one instance will pop another instance out of output solo mode. I'd want all instances to track the same mode and the same solo mode since theyre all "my" instances. Anyone else would be on MON or a personal monitor mix.

That makes sense to me, but to Randy's point it may break how someone else would want or need to work. Given the caution Bob's given in the past about multiple FOH or MON instances though it seems having multiple users in that kind of scenario is not really the advised method of operation.

soundchicken
09-13-2012, 05:43 AM
In fact... I am thinking of forcing all solos OFF when first loading a saved session which may have had solos engaged... we'll see.

There's almost nothing worse than walking up to a desk on a one-off that has 27 freaking pfls depressed. I'm all for this, if you need to recall a solo setting use a scene.

JLepore
09-20-2012, 02:45 PM
Apparently recalling partial scenes also causes the solo chase to freak out. (and no, it never goes red).

gdougherty
09-20-2012, 10:17 PM
Apparently recalling partial scenes also causes the solo chase to freak out. (and no, it never goes red).

How so? Made a quick test with a scratch session. Created two scenes that only affect the first 5 channels on FOH plus 2 aux and 2 outs. Stored full channel settings. The solo recalled according to the solo state at the time of the scene snapshot. It even pretty intelligently kept output solo mode as I jumped back and forth between one scene with the output selected and another with a single channel selected. Storing no channel selected gets the solo mode reset with no light on. Were you recalling solo state in the scene? In general I avoid that since solo isn't really anything I care to recall and it always seemed like a good way to screw things up. I always minimize the amount of stuff I recall to any extent possible. Since the scene is a full snapshot at that moment in time it's always possible to go back and add more recall selections as necessary.

Carl G.
09-21-2012, 12:10 AM
I definitely believe the console should startup in a non-solo engaged mode.
Bob L
Following this... I agree. Solos (settings as requested for start up) would seem to be an exception to the rule, rather than a good rule of norms to follow in most operating conditions. (at least for me)

JLepore
09-21-2012, 12:31 AM
No, my scenes do not recall solo settings. And apparently now, if you recall enough scenes, SACRemote crashes. This is going to be a long show.

And I hate to break it to Bob, but the plug-in display bug that he thought was fixed with the changes to the RTA and other remote code, still happens. Took the whole system out the same way it always did during rehersals tonight. I just hope like hell it doesn't do it during the show Saturday. Back to handling the system with kid gloves.

JeremyJo
09-21-2012, 01:40 PM
Wow JLepore, you really are a power user - I'm not being a pill here, I'm honestly trying to see what you're doing...

We have had two productions using SAC and each one had over 100 scenes all called and updated via a wired remote. We didn't have THOSE problems.

We had a scene corruption issue where I think it was traced to duplicating scenes and then renaming them - I am pretty sure that was our issue. Instead of duplicating and renaming, we just had to make new scenes each time. A little bothersome when we already had almost 100 scenes in place, but we were able to work around it and not crash the show.

I tried, the other day, repeatedly pressing solo - maybe 40 or 50 times on a wired remote and didn't HEAR any delay.

I have been trying to duplicate your scenarios when I had time, because we use the program in some similar ways to you, but I haven't duplicated the errors yet.

Honestly not trying to be a jerk, just following along and trying to help on a working system.

JJ

JLepore
09-21-2012, 03:03 PM
The remote crash on scene recall seems to have happened every time I had to rapidly recall - modify - update all of my scenes at the host machine. It was usually to do things like apply a channel EQ, or change a routing across the entire show. When I would look back down at the tablet, it would have the "program has to close" message on it.

Under the pressure of a rapid rehersal, I didn't have time to do anything but finish crashing it and restart and get moving. When I get the system back down to not doing anything, I can try reproducing them, getting blamed for causing a problem, and then someday seeing a fix.

This is new functionality I have never had to use before, so it hasn't gotten a workout by me before. Sadly, I don't have many scenes, but each of the 15 songs they will be doing are so different, it's my only hope at pulling it off - different players, different singers, different track levels - 8 mixes and 42 channels ... all from a d#$ remote. argh...