View Full Version : Remote Gain Controller Appsys ultimate PROS and CONS
martiaudio
09-12-2012, 08:15 AM
Since I am designing a i/o box for SAC I came to see that controlling the gain remotely is a must and so is the 48 v phantom power possibly. But first I'd like to ear about this Appsys unit and your take on it..
Is it ok to have an other midi unit or is it in the way of control surfaces and other midi units in SAC usage?
Ultimately I'd like to remote gain and possibly 48v on 32ch i/o
but I also like to have 32 pfl:48v/gain/mute/vu meter on one headphone amp, all electronic on the i/o box panel itself so that I can truly monitor microphone inputs before the ADCs, before it gets to the software which makes sense.
( If I take the example of the ADA8000 the gain input led/peak control isn't enough to adjust appropriately the input. And there are discrepancies between the preamp true level and the SAC input vu meter/peak )
TomyN
09-12-2012, 09:27 AM
Hi,
I'm using the appsys remote for 24 channels. It works really fine for me.
I did a SAC plugin which usese the Ethernet connection to share and controll the gain from any remote or the host.
Currently it's one plugin for 24 channels, which has some tradeoffs when it comes to recall particaluar channels only.
By the way, the unit you describe sounds a lot like two S-16.
Might be you'd better spend your time on a AES50 - PCI card :-)
Tomy
TomyN
09-13-2012, 04:48 AM
Well, there is a server application running on the pc where the midi interface is located.
This application takes care of the midi side, i.e. it converts the gain data into midi commands and sends it to the midi interface.
On the network-side it receives and distributes the information from the plugin (gain values, linked channels, channel labels and recall-safe settings).
http://www.take-sat.de/pics/Gainsetter-Full.png
http://www.take-sat.de/pics/sac_gain_1.png
The plugin it self is just a control surface for 24 channels.
The controls are a little bit 'SACish':
http://www.take-sat.de/pics/sac_gain_2.png
The plugin is a SAW/SAC plugin, and I also have a 'Plugin-host' to run it without any 'host'.
Tomy
martiaudio
09-13-2012, 06:36 AM
Well, there is a server application running on the pc where the midi interface is located.
This application takes care of the midi side, i.e. it converts the gain data into midi commands and sends it to the midi interface.
On the network-side it receives and distributes the information from the plugin (gain values, linked channels, channel labels and recall-safe settings).
http://www.take-sat.de/pics/Gainsetter-Full.png
http://www.take-sat.de/pics/sac_gain_1.png
The plugin it self is just a control surface for 24 channels.
The controls are a little bit 'SACish':
http://www.take-sat.de/pics/sac_gain_2.png
The plugin is a SAW/SAC plugin, and I also have a 'Plugin-host' to run it without any 'host'.
Tomy
looks good..
What do you do if you have more than 24ch.. like 32ch standard up to 64ch ( a standard 2x rayDAT for example?
and I meant to say where do you insert the plugins ?? I am not getting that bit ! sorry..
TomyN
09-13-2012, 07:01 AM
You can 'plug-in' the control in any FX slot in SAC. It does not affect audio in any way. It's settings will be saved, when the channel is saved. This is a tradeoff, which can be overcome only if I break it down to plugin for a single channel.
The server-part still supports 72 channels. The size of 24 fits to the appsys unit.
Currently the sequence is:
Server starts, sets all gains to zero and put this out midi
SAC starts and delivers the last settings to the plugin (or tells the plugin to reset).
The plugin connects to the server and sets gains and infos (links, labels and so on).
If you start a remote, the plugin will get the data via SAC.
If you change gain on any plugin, the plugin sends the new gain value to the server, the server puts it out to midi and informs all other plugins about the change. I.e. all plugins show the same value for gain. Other changes (labels, links) are handled the same way.
Appsys enables you to control gain and not just volume. It's no VCA (which would add distorsi.. I mean 'colour' to the sound). Furthermore it provides total galvanic isolation between controll and audio.
I assume the crystal devices can be controlled via I2C bus. There are a lot of usb -> I2C solutions on the market.
Tomy
TomyN
09-14-2012, 05:57 AM
Okay, here we go:
The ADX gives you four ADAT Channels over a CAT-5 cable. This is no ADAT to Ethernet converter, it justs uses the eight wires of the CAT-cable to transfer the ADAT Data.
You can opereate the ADX in different ways, but keep in mind that you'll need outputs, too. So 24/8 would be a solution which works with one ADX 32. This would also match the RGC's 24 channels.
The RGC comes with 24 LDR / LED combinations, which need to be connected in parallel to the gain-contolling pot. The RGC uses default 9-pin sub D connectors for eight controllsignals + ground. The RGC creates constant current signals, so it only feeds 'dc-like' signals into the preamp without the danger of digital noise.
As mentioned before, you can put the plugin in any available slot, either output or input (or FX-Return), even when the channel is in use. It leaves the audio - signal untouched.
When it comes to use both SAC and SACGain-Server on the same machine, you need to use different midi-output-devices, one for SAC and one assigned to the SAC-Gain-server. I use a cheap USB-Midi device for this purpose.
Currently the plugin is designed for 24 channels, and the 'recall-safe' option is not build in yet. The plan is to add this option first, do some checks and afterwards release it to the public. After that, I might expand for more channels and/or add support for the S-16 as soon as I'll get one...
Tomy
TomyN
09-14-2012, 10:58 AM
Hi,
as far as I now (might be that Rolf, which is a member of this forum, can clearify this item) the RGC is capable of 24 channels. You can get another set of couplers and connection, so you can prepare a spare device with the remote-gain facility.
Regarding control:
The RGC needs midi controller data. This data can be created using a VST-Plugin (which is on his website), a stand-alone software or a external midi - controller (like the BRC-2000, which I used for testing the system).
Furthermore, you'll be able to use my network/midi solution in the near future, which also can be run as SACplug in or as a stand-alone solution.
Tomy
roffez
09-16-2012, 12:33 AM
I am sorry i meant cat5 indeed..
I am misunderstanding the ADX which is a massive draw back. I thought the 32 was 2x cat5 so potential 32 in and 32 out.. not just 24/8 that is seriously weak!.
The remote system I still don't get it as such.. but it looks like I can't use a midi surface and usual SAC set up that easy I take it?
app sys say that we can order an optional 8ch to make 32ch within one unit.
Hi Martiaudio,
time for me to jump in:
- The ADX-32B (http://appsys.ch/en/products/34-digitalaudio/55-adx32b-adx64b) can transmit four ADATs over 1*Cat5 with each direction selecteable by DIP switches. This means you can do 32/0, 24/8, 16/16 etc.
plus 1*MIDI.
- The ADX-64B-PRO can transmit eight ADATs over 2*Cat5, also with each direction selecteable. This means 64/0, 56/8, 48/16, 40/24, 32/32 etc. plus 1*MIDI (optionally 2*MIDI). It's basically 2*ADX-32B modules in one 1U case.
- The RGC-24A-M (http://appsys.ch/en/products/remotegaincontroller) can remote control the gain of 24 channels, e.g. three 8ch preamps. You can cascade up to four RGC's for up to 96 channels. You can also connect relays instead of couplers if you want to switch pads, phantom power etc. Note: The optional "8 preamp internals kit" is meant to built a spare preamp. It includes _no_ additional outputs on the RGC module itself.
- There are multiple possibilties to control the RGC:
a) use the Windows standalone SW (http://appsys.ch/en/downloads/rgc-pc-software)
b) use the VST plugin on your SAC host
c) use the client/server solution from Tomy (very elegant!)
d) use a Behringer BCR2000 controller
In terms of hardware, the RGC needs MIDI data. This can get to the RGC:
a) directly
b) via the ADX-32B/ADX-64B-PRO's MIDI channel
c) over ethernet with the client/server solution from Tomy
d) via wireless MIDI extenders, e.g. from M-Audio (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MidAir.html)
Kind Regards,
Rolf
roffez
09-17-2012, 08:16 AM
Just a question, what are the internal 8ch.. again..
If I was to build a i/o box, is this what I would need internally 4 times for 32ch instead of the RGC?
The "Additional preamp internals (8ch)" consist of 8 analog couplers, some copper wire, a ribbon cable and a male 9pin D-Sub connector with mounting hardware, and nothing else. You will need the RGC electronic module (not contained) to control this. [The 8ch additional internals kit is intended for people who bought an RGC (which contains the above for 24ch) and now want to mod a spare preamp].
For your box, you will need:
- For a 32 ch i/o box with gain control only, you will need two RGCs (giving 48 channels total: 32 for gain, 16 unused)
- For a 32 ch i/o box with gain AND 48V, you will need three RGCs (giving 72 channels total: 32 for gain, 32 for 48V, 8 unused)
- For a 32 ch i/o box with gain, 48V and Pad, you will need four RGCs (giving 96 channels total: 32 for gain, 32 for 48V, 32 for Pad, no spares)
Please mail me <info@appsys.ch> for a quote...
The plugins and the standalone app cover 48 channels max. at the moment, but I think it can be extended easily to more according to your needs (I need to speak to my software buddy Achim who did the coding). What is possible in any case is to control all this - including scene recall etc. - using a Behringer BCR2000.
Kind Regards,
Rolf
martiaudio
09-17-2012, 10:09 AM
right I get it.thanks..
in that case that makes the solution way too expensive I am afraid.
Unless of course I built a unique sounding in/out box with very expensive preamps.. and ADDAs in which case there is a need a diy digital snake it!!
otherwise I don't think that it is an option.
Thank you
Jeff Scott
09-17-2012, 11:08 AM
Giving serious consideration to the ADX64 solution for my quest for a larger snake. Currently running a 50 ft snake and looking to upgrade. The cost to go to a decent quality 24/8 copper snake easily exceeds the price of (2) ADX64's. Hmmmm...:rolleyes:
TomyN
09-17-2012, 12:05 PM
Hi,
the first public beta version of the remote-control for the appsys AGC is available.
Please read the warnings (and the rest) in the pdf document included in the archive first.
http://www.take-sat.de/sac_gain/SACGain-08.zip
Tomy
Mattseymour
09-17-2012, 01:27 PM
Giving serious consideration to the ADX64 solution for my quest for a larger snake. Currently running a 50 ft snake and looking to upgrade. The cost to go to a decent quality 24/8 copper snake easily exceeds the price of (2) ADX64's. Hmmmm...:rolleyes:
I've got the adx32 and its a nice solution. Simple, works, not much more to be said.
martiaudio
09-18-2012, 03:28 AM
in my quest for an ideal and cost effective digital snake i/o for SAC, on my potential custom i/o box,
I come to realise that it might just be better in the long run and for various aspect including up sale business and clearer rig
to go with a better protocol like Madi Dante or AES50..
I am currently falling for the AES50 I must say..
I've just learnt that the lynx AES16e-50 is now stable on pc and Mac internal pcie or external thunderbolt.
paired with Berhringer S16's
or paired with Midas DL251
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