SAC/SAW, S16 digital snake, AES50 pcie integration?

[martiaudio]

Perhaps the ultimate rig for SAC/SAW are x S16 (no data control ) and lynx AES16e-50pcie or Midas i/os ( with preamp data control )?

[martiaudio]

according to Jim Roese from http://www.rpmdynamics.com/
I am told the following:
"over the last few months I've spent quite a bit of time working with Lynx on the development of the new firmware and drivers for the AES16e50 card to get it to finally be a stable AES50 I/O device. It works great now for audio. I too would love it if the control data could be implemented, but I don't foresee that in any immediate future. It's sort of the dame thing as with MADI protocol not supporting it in many devices. I'm not sure if you are aware, but Midas has digital snake software that does what you are asking for. It can be found here http://www.midasconsoles.com/digitalsnakes.php Seeing as SAC is all PC driven, it seems that in your application having the Midas software running control wouldn't be much of a difficulty to make your solution work. If you were to run a DL251 with 2 Lynx cards, you would have a 48 x 16 I/O solution that could run either 48K or 96K"

So despite budget it seems to be a good solution.

[dasbin]

If you were to run a DL251 with 2 Lynx cards, you would have a 48 x 16 I/O solution that could run either 48K or 96K

This is what I am running in my SAC system right now.

What "strict limitations" are you talking about? My setup has had huge issues, but I don't think this is what you're referring to.
To be honest your flurry of posts on this topic (duplicated between two threads!) are bordering on nonsensical. I can't keep track of what it is you're talking about and what previous posts you're referring to. It reads more like a stream-of-consciousness and I'm never sure what you're asking or commenting on exactly.

[martiaudio]

understood.
I thought that would help to get the point of view of someone that retail Midas and made the AES16e-50 actually works.
BTW there will by 2 new updates from lynx on the AES50 and the software to insure flawless operations.
And like I said no data on lynx AES50 pipeline to be expected as I am told and as I would have hoped.

And yes I am undecided over which solution to take with SAC after 8 months working with it.. it has been a lot of diy time consuming instead of developing my business.

Bottom line is this despite the forum abuse..
SAC won't boost your business ever.. I have to work so hard to sell myself with this!!
We are in a world of fake bull**** and branding especially in audio and lighting now.

So carry on with ADA's modifications or if you like obscure unorthodox i/o box not removable as such with a system unknown in the uk despite the quality of my promise rig won't take me anywhere..

Therefore I always explore other solutions.. and this one might be my ticket..with some S16 for some applications and mainly MIDAS i/o's and if I grow bored of SAC I rent a PRO1 or PRO2c to operate it!

If you have this exact rig, can you tell me if it is smooth to run Midas DL251 with the Midas software opened on windows whilst running SAC+SAW, please?
this the only thing I need to find out for certain. thank you

[Mattseymour]

To be honest, too much is changing too quickly at this moment. There's the s16, yet to be released, which looks like a good option for sac but is behringer. There's Dante kit with with focusrite rednet card available but super expensive. There are mix and match solutions like the appsys kit.

Personally I would be betting on Dante, as it's network based and uses standard switches.

But the reality is there are options available that work and are proven. I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time lookingat building anything.

[martiaudio]

But the reality is there are options available that work and are proven. I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time lookingat building anything.

that is where I am at and I think you're right! I've been a pain on this forum lately but in truth I ve been fed up with these ADA8000..
I am very attracted to the S16 but it is that Brand again that will not help my business .. however it has a lot of attractive features for exactly 10x cheaper than the MIDAS DL251 which I am looking at also.

[dasbin]

BTW there will by 2 new updates from lynx on the AES50 and the software to insure flawless operations.

What are you referring to? What will the new software do exactly? And where did you get this information?

The newest firmware for the Lynx cards finally has stable and robust AES50 connectivity. It was pretty pitiful until about a month ago. Boot order was strange and imperative, and any interruption in the line or of power on either end meant the entire system had to be booted again on both ends in the proper order... and on the last firmware revision, AES50 was broken entirely. That all seems to be fixed now, finally.



If you have this exact rig, can you tell me if it is smooth to run Midas DL251 with the Midas software opened on windows whilst running SAC+SAW, please?
this the only thing I need to find out for certain. thank youWell, once I got the DL251 firmware updates running, this part of it has been pretty good. No problems running SAC alongside the Midas preamp control software.
But nightmarish until then. The DL251 out of the box did not come with a firmware capable of being controlled by anything other than a Midas console, and the update process was absolutely brutal (serial port SSH login to a Linux terminal, manually flashing about a dozen hex addresses on the ROM) and I had to go through 3 iterations of broken firmware and emailing back and forth to Midas until one finally worked. Now that it's working, I'm never touching it again. Every time I'd pray that this would not be the one where I mistook a 0x000001f for a 0x00001f and brick the entire DL251...

I have also run into clock sync issues between the Lynx and DL251, which I believe is related to cable length (I'm running an 85m STP snake). I've cut down the cable and I still am not certain that I've got this fixed or not, more testing needed.

[Mattseymour]

That sounds frightening.

[martiaudio]

lynx firmware.. I am referring to my earlier post with Jim Roese from http://www.rpmdynamics.com/.. Apparently he has a lot to do with the fact that the AES50 is solid now with 12.8version I believe.. but there will be one more shortly to address AES50 and software to guaranty smooth and solid operation. So I am told.

in regards to DL251 I was certainly wasn't aware of that and Jim Roese keen on selling me over with the Midas option didn't talk about that.. Thank you very much for that info. If I buy I rather have that all sorted in the package.

If I think of sound I'd love to go with Midas
but there aren't remote control data with S16, there aren't local data control on the Midas box..
although I am told on an other thread that it has confirmed to work with midi to control the data on S16..good news.

All that Midas can offer is nothing for extra control just VNC into their software.. which isn't enough for ***163;4000.

[dasbin]

Well, I see Jim is selling (his own?) 48ch AES50 boxes for $2599.99, which seems like a ridiculously good deal if they're near the quality of the Midas boxes.


One other thing to keep in mind is the DL251 only has 45db of preamp gain available. May not be a big issue for many, but this was a surprise for me... I do some micing of orchestral instruments in my work and was a bit disappointed by this because it means my SNR is not as good as it could be sometimes.

[martiaudio]

Well, I see Jim is selling (his own?) 48ch AES50 boxes for $2599.99, which seems like a ridiculously good deal if they're near the quality of the Midas boxes.


One other thing to keep in mind is the DL251 only has 45db of preamp gain available. May not be a big issue for many, but this was a surprise for me... I do some micing of orchestral instruments in my work and was a bit disappointed by this because it means my SNR is not as good as it could be sometimes.

ouah! 45db only!! no location studio application with ribbon mic here!!haha

I don't think Jim's selling i/o's.. When I saw that I was surprised.. but then is trying to sell me over on Midas i/os and product.
And to be honest he seems to be the person clued up about lynx AES cards and Midas combined.

Having seen some of Jim's youtube post, it looks like a complete solution for rec/playback @64bits law latency AES50 solution for Midas console.. so I guess 2 lynx cards 2x24ch @96Khz, and ...hum.. I don't know! perhaps software and Mac mini integrated with the external thunderbolt pcie rack I guess..

[martiaudio]

dasbin,
If you already use dl251, I'd like to hear your opinion on sound..
If you have experience of any analog Midas with XL4 preamp.. how does it compare..
Of course it all depends on applications .. and would like to come away of live and talk more at a studio application level ..
Basically I am in search for some sort of magic preamp render here..
All manufacturers and all king of engineer are banging on about converters.. and yes some good apogees contribute to a sound.. but when it comes to character.. it is the preamp.
what is your take? Is ir worth the money?

[dasbin]

To me it's worth the money to have the Midas name on the box, which leads to way fewer questions about my decision to bring in the SAC system, and more excited house engineers when I take the lids off. Despite the actual problems I've had.

I'm not a big preamp snob and I generally find it pretty difficult to find big differences in modern preamps aside from SNR. It's definitively better than a Yamaha console :)
When I was putting the system together there was a time when I had considered using banks of ATI 8MX2 preamps, which would get more expensive real quick (~$2500 per bank of 8, doesn't include converters), just because everything else in my signal chain was about as good as a person could ask for (FOH is almost always a Meyer system of some kind and I have an enviable live mic selection at my disposal). But in the end the DL251 seemed like it would be a more practical all-in-one remote control solution at the time and probably a happy "more than good enough" audio quality.
I don't have any time on XLR4 preamps, only a few years behind a Verona console. This box sounds perhaps slightly better than that but of a similar extremely neutral character. Hard to say without a direct A/B which I haven't done, and even then... probably hard to tell.

[operationwhat]

To me it's worth the money to have the Midas name on the box, which leads to way fewer questions about my decision to bring in the SAC system, and more excited house engineers when I take the lids off. Despite the actual problems I've had.

I'm not a big preamp snob and I generally find it pretty difficult to find big differences in modern preamps aside from SNR. It's definitively better than a Yamaha console :)
When I was putting the system together there was a time when I had considered using banks of ATI 8MX2 preamps, which would get more expensive real quick (~$2500 per bank of 8, doesn't include converters), just because everything else in my signal chain was about as good as a person could ask for (FOH is almost always a Meyer system of some kind and I have an enviable live mic selection at my disposal). But in the end the DL251 seemed like it would be a more practical all-in-one remote control solution at the time and probably a happy "more than good enough" audio quality.
I don't have any time on XLR4 preamps, only a few years behind a Verona console. This box sounds perhaps slightly better than that but of a similar extremely neutral character. Hard to say without a direct A/B which I haven't done, and even then... probably hard to tell.

Dasbin, could you give us a few detail of your setup? How do u use the midas preamps, what pci card or how do you use the remote on the preamps?

Thanx,
Nikola

[dasbin]

How do u use the midas preamps, what pci card or how do you use the remote on the preamps?


2x Lynx AES16e-50 PCIE cards, Midas has a preamp remote control software. Basically you just put the Midas on the local network (plug into a router that the host computer is also on).
There are 2 AES50 lines and one Ethernet line on you need to connect on the Midas.

[operationwhat]

Wow...it's not even expensive.I just have to sell my aurora's and my AES cards and grab some of the money from the jar :D hahah Great! And what about the lenght of AES cables, is it possible to run cables to lenghts like 50-70m? What about latency? Can you run it at 1x32 in 96khz?:)


Thanx!

[martiaudio]

Does anyone know if we can have a Midas DL251 and a S16 which way or an other with the AES50 connections. daisy chained or on 2 different Lynx cards?
I am interested at the practicality of personal monitor mix P16 directly on S16..
if I need local i/os I can always indulge with an other S16 instead of precious local i/os ..I hope that I understand it right that the amount of i/o's doesn't matter cos we can assign what we need..unlike protocol like ADAT where it is stock with 8ch at the time..
or am I just getting that wrong..

And for quality studio work I can use the Midas preamps..and or at unity gain with my other preamps with only one lynx card for 24ch @ 96Khz.. shouldn't be bad.

That might be useful:
http://www.midasconsoles.com/digitalsnakes-more.php
http://www.midasconsoles.com/dl251.php?src=pro6
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/S16.aspx

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/P16-M.aspx

[dasbin]

You can daisy chain a couple S16's as you've discovered, or you can put a couple S16's on one Lynx card and a DL251 on the other Lynx card (just pick one of the cards to be your master clock, and link them together with the Lynx header clock connector - slave everything else in series). But you can't to my knowledge daisy-chain off of a DL251, and there would be very little point to putting it at the end of the daisy-chain either (as you would lose channels). Each AES50 port on the DL251 always outputs a 24-channel bank and there is no way to change that. You have to keep in mind these things were really made to be used with their consoles, plugged into the DL371 master engine stage box where there are a whole whack of AES50 plugs available. New interface, just home-run it to a free line on the master box, done. No daisy-chaining. The engine can then send up to 192 channels on a single Cat5e using the HyperMAC protocol... which is really a better protocol than AES50 and I wish we were talking about interfaces that uses HyperMAC instead...

My Local I/O is taken care of by the Lynx LS-ADAT expansion card off one of the AES16e-50 cards, hooked up to a Presonus Digimax FS. While there are enough ports on the LS-ADAT for another bank of 8 beyond that, there are only 32 possible inputs on the AES16e-50 card - 24 from a DL251 line, 8 from the LS-ADAT. So you'd need to add a second LS-ADAT to the other card to get another 8 local channels, but I don't need it.

[martiaudio]

dasbin I hear what you are saying and thank you for your infos. that is invaluable..
But again if AES50 isn't ideal.. what is with SAC.. Perhaps just nothing!!

I don't mind adat but it is a little daft with the smux thing and toslinks in the rack!! and I say that even for my studio!!

Would the Midas i/o and a solid SAC set up with local AES/EBU or the LB-ADAT card be "a sort of" ideal rig for now until the next big thing?

I need a very quick solution lightweight too ..so i like the idea of ext. lynx card with Macboocpro and the 48ch 96Khz with Midas.. it can't get any better than that with a short cat5e.. nice little rig with some SACRemote..

Until recently I thought SAC was lacking control on the W Mixer.. this is now sorted with an coded application, a very clever way to use trackball wheel and easy keyboard shortcut that I beta tested.. it is coming soon here for everyone I hope. I say that because SAC is still great compare to a growing wider digital audio market.. but I/os are always a compromise, a DIY nightmare.

Personally I tried to promote SAC with the idea to show it and to propose turnkey solutions in UK.. but adats, behringer to modify greatly before being stable,.. well
No one could take that seriously and quite rightly.

Perhaps SAC + S16 might be better... but for less than a LS9 32
you can now have a SAC+MIDAS system
If it is guaranteed to work at least with a frozen Win7 or xp version pc/virtual pc..
I guess I am in!

[martiaudio]

Am I right to say that the Midas preamp control is throw the ethernet..( Not the AES50 with SAC ) so if I use a router on my SAC system.. I need a second pc to control Midas..
So I should be able to use the SACRemote wireless laptop tablet and plug the ethernet on a wire on stage or from FOH
? is this a reasonable, highly flexible solution.. since I read the data remain when the ethernet is unplugged..

[dasbin]

You can just plug the Midas into your router and use any of the PC's or remotes already on the network to control the gain. It doesn't need a dedicated line - it can just take a DHCP address from the router.

[martiaudio]

You can just plug the Midas into your router and use any of the PC's or remotes already on the network to control the gain. It doesn't need a dedicated line - it can just take a DHCP address from the router.

ok.

[martiaudio]

I thought that might be useful.. it is difficult to gat these anywhere..