Virtual Soundcheck capability?

[zzygan]

Hi

I'm new to SAC as a user, and I have used plenty of digital consoles in the past.

I was wondering if there is a way with SAC to do a "virtual soundcheck" where you multitrack record a performance, and then later playback that performance back into SAC on each input channel and set the EQ/compression etc when the performers are not available or to setup a venue before the performers are ready?

Thanks

[soundchicken]

you bet'cha!

check out SAW Studiolight

[Bob L]

The SACLink for SAWStudio and SAWStudioLite allows that capability... as well as the ability to create the multitrack recording easily with a few clicks of the mouse.

You can easily create a scene to switch back and forth between the mic inputs and the SS track playback.

Explore the demos of one of those programs.

Bob L

[RandyHyde]

Hi

I'm new to SAC as a user, and I have used plenty of digital consoles in the past.

I was wondering if there is a way with SAC to do a "virtual soundcheck" where you multitrack record a performance, and then later playback that performance back into SAC on each input channel and set the EQ/compression etc when the performers are not available or to setup a venue before the performers are ready?

Thanks
I bought SAW Studio Lite for this very purpose. My original thought was that I could record the act during sound check, drag them out to FOH afterwards, and play back the mix for them to get their approval.

This approach failed for a couple of reasons:

1) Most band didn't care and didn't want to waste any time listening to the mix... (okay, doesn't count for much).

2) You have to mic *everything* in order for this to be functional (not too much of a problem, but for some smaller shows I don't mic everything on the stage if the backline is loud).

3) (the killer) You have to insist that the performers turn their backline *way* down. Even though I might mic the bass and guitar amps, at half my shows the musicians insist on running their amps so loud that we put absolutely nothing into the mix. When you play back the recording, you get nothing for those instruments. Sure, you could record it and then adjust the mix on playback, but that's not the "real" mix appearing in FOH.

After a few failed attempts (because of [3] above), I basically stopped trying to use SAW Studio for this purpose. It's a great device when you can convince the acts to go direct injection or have them turn their amps *way* down (so they don't contribute to the FOH mix), but with the acts I usually work with, this almost never happens.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[dasbin]

3) (the killer) You have to insist that the performers turn their backline *way* down.


Never a bad thing IMHO... stupid guitar players... :cool:

[Andy Hamm]

The stage volume thing kinda goes both ways with me.

I like low stage volumes when I have a vocalist that isn't all that strong, but otherwise, I like to be able to turn the PA off and still have it sound like there is a band playing in the room. That is I like things to be mixed right off of the stage whenever possible. This is really hard to get inexperienced musicians to do, as there are often players that feel they want to be louder than everything else. When the band is mixed on stage, I never have any trouble out front; when there is one guy or thing sticking out like a sore thumb, there is rarely anything I can ever do about it.

I recently did a show with a band that was all direct, and used in ear monitors. The only thing you can hear off of the stage is the drums and I guess acapella vocals. The PA was small with one top and bottom per side, and trying to squeeze and entire band out of it was no easy task. I would have given my left nut for some stage volume that night to take some of the strain off of the mains as they weren't even adequate for a bass guitar or a kick drum on their own, let alone an entire mix.

[dbarrow]

The SACLink for SAWStudio and SAWStudioLite allows that capability... as well as the ability to create the multitrack recording easily with a few clicks of the mouse.

You can easily create a scene to switch back and forth between the mic inputs and the SS track playback.

Explore the demos of one of those programs.

Bob LI do that a lot and it's great. The other thing that blows people away is that I have several previous shows with Del Castillo (jaw-dropping performances) and a few others that I can call up and play back through the system, mixing the multi-track recording live, as if the band was there playing. I already have the mix template saved for each show, which was tweaked to perfection, so the playback is stunning. When I'm not at a gig, the SAC/SS rack lives in my studio out in the garage and I have a stereo output bus running through the ceiling into the A/V closet in my house. I can bring up a previous live show and mix it wirelessly from my netbook, while sitting on the couch listening to the playback over my stereo. That blows some people away, as well, plus, I can tweak FX, dynamics and other settings for future shows with the same band.

I also have Foobar (like WinAmp or Media Player) connected back into a SAC channel for stereo MP3 and WAV playback. I have a directory of test tones and dry instruments: snare hits, guitar strums, etc., so I can tweak reverbs and other FX without the band being there, save them as a scene/preset and be more prepared in advance for an upcoming show. The possibilities are endless. I wouldn't be setting up a whole console and system back at the house to do this. Just the rack connected to the existing studio and living room playback systems.

[zzygan]

Thanks all for the input.

My setup is for a church, and after many years of working with the musicians lots and switching to in-ear monitoring, we've managed to get our backline at a reasonably manageable level for all our various configurations.

I've done the virtual soundcheck setup with a digidesign sc48 when we were trialling replacement FOH consoles, and it worked quite well. The SC48 proved to be too far out of budget reach, which is why we ended with SAC.

Thanks again for the input. Now I have to convince the money holders of another $1500 :)

[Soundguy]

Virtual soundchecks may work well at the "large venue" level, but for my money, a line check works better.

If the purpose is to play back a performance to re-create a mix in another venue, or if things have been torn down and set up again ... in either case I prefer loading in my show file for that artist into the digital console and doing the "roadie" line check. Have a member of the crew bang on the drums for a minuter, shout into the mics, play the bass, etc., and I tweak the recalled settings. It's particularly better in setting the mic pre level.

The combo of my show file and a line check works better than any virtual line check of a past performance, IMHO, because it's live.

Soundguy

[RandyHyde]

Never a bad thing IMHO... stupid guitar players... :cool:

Unless, of course, they refuse. Stupid guitar players...

[dbarrow]

Virtual soundchecks may work well at the "large venue" level, but for my money, a line check works better.

If the purpose is to play back a performance to re-create a mix in another venue, or if things have been torn down and set up again ... in either case I prefer loading in my show file for that artist into the digital console and doing the "roadie" line check. Have a member of the crew bang on the drums for a minuter, shout into the mics, play the bass, etc., and I tweak the recalled settings. It's particularly better in setting the mic pre level.

The combo of my show file and a line check works better than any virtual line check of a past performance, IMHO, because it's live.

Soundguy
The primary band I work with runs just about everything direct, including Roland V-Drums, and uses In-Ear Monitors. We can do a full sound check with just headphones. It's great. Many of the events we play end up not allowing a loud check, or the time gets away and we can't do one anyway. SAC is, of course, great for this. I just recall the last show and we are off. There are usually only minor room EQ tweaks that can be sorted out within the first son. There is never any feedback, unless it is at a wedding with the father of the bride or a toasting groomsman standing in front of the speaker, in which case, I just turn it down. I have already told them where to stand and how to speak into the mic, so it is on them, if they can't be heard.

[Soundguy]

If it works for you that's great. I tour part time with a couple of different bands and have show files for most of the popular digital consoles. Even though they have the same back line, most of the tweaking is on the front end ... different mics, snakes (analog or digital), different guitar amp settings, different guitar strings, etc., on different stages, etc.

In my case, I found that a comprehensive line check on top of a show file that has been fine tuned, gives me better results than virtual sound check ... such as on a Venue console with Pro Tools.

Soundguy

[Donnie Frank]

3) (the killer) You have to insist that the performers turn their backline *way* down.



I don't if you've tried this or not, but you will have much better luck having musicians side-filling their amps as opposed to turning down. This provided there's room on the side of the stage. Usually behind the mains works. Many benefits:

1) You don't have to deal with brain-splitting volume from the guitar amp.

2) The band *does* have to deal with the brain-spitting volumes. This tends to make them self-police themselves. Where you might say, "Would you mind turning your amp down a bit? It will help the mix." The band will be more like, "Turn that damn thing down!"...much more "persuasive."

3) Because the band can hear the guitar/bass amps so well, this means less instruments in the monitors...always a good thing.

4) If you have 2 guitar players and they do dual leads, this helps them hear each other better...which facilitates less stage left guitar in the stage right guitar player's monitor and visa-versa.

The reason most bands face their amps forward is because they don't usually run them through a P.A. system and so that's the way they've "always done it." So when they get on a larger system where their amps are going to be mic'ed, "side-filling" is a pretty easy sale...much easier than "turn it down."

Give it shot. I think you will find that this works best for everyone.

[Cary B. Cornett]

+1 on Donnie's suggestion for side-fill positioning of the amps.

Back when I mixed bands in a bar (3 or 4 a night), I started pushing the guitar players to do that. Now if only I could have done the same thing with the drums... :rolleyes:;)

[dbarrow]

+1 on Donnie's suggestion for side-fill positioning of the amps.

Back when I mixed bands in a bar (3 or 4 a night), I started pushing the guitar players to do that. Now if only I could have done the same thing with the drums... :rolleyes:;)I worked with a band long ago that did side-firing guitar and bass (matters less, because bass is more omni-directional). It seemed to help quite a bit. They were very good at "self regulating" anyway. There was another guy here in Austin I worked with, Van Wilks, that had an acrylic screen, kind of like a miniature version of those acrylic drum screens, that he put in front of his loud Marshall. It worked pretty well and at least killed the searing high end.

[Jeff Scott]

I side fill...or more accurately....position my guitar amp next to my monitor facing directly back at me. I use either a Line 6 XTLive or the HD500 Floorboard running direct to the PA with a split for my amp. The amp is an 50 watt tube Atomic 50 which is essentially a Full Range Frequency Response tube amp monitor. So the sound I hear is what the PA gets and Audience hears. Our Drummer plays an Electronic Yamaha kit housed in acoustic shells. The audience can't tell the difference....except the drums always sound killer.
Our bass player runs DI with a split to a Line 6 Bass amp.

Most gigs our stage volume while playing is so low that we can easily talk to one another across the stage. Very little Bleed out front. Always get comments from other musicians on the sound. The focus for us as a group is the blending of vocal harmonies and tasty tones from our respective instruments...which is harder to do if the volume is taking one's head off.

Keep the stage volume down whatever you do!

[Donnie Frank]

I side fill...or more accurately....position my guitar amp next to my monitor facing directly back at me.



This works well as long as the guitar player isn't using a combo amp with an open back.

Back in the '80's I was in a band who's guitar player took an ordinary monitor wedge and populated it with his favorite guitar speaker. He then used the horn for his talk box. He just stuffed a tube down in the horn and ran it up to his microphone. As if all this weren't genius enough, he used a flange to mount a goose neck to the wedge so the audio engineer could position the microphone anywhere he wished. His tube amp resided upstage in the "normal" position.

Light-weight, compact, multi-purpose. He used that rig for the entire 8.5 years the band was together. I've never seen another guitar player duplicate this. If I were a guitar player, I wouldn't hesitate.






Our Drummer plays an Electronic Yamaha kit housed in acoustic shells.



I've had only 2 clients with electronic drums. And though the potential is there for killer sound, I have to say that unless the drummer sends more than one line, it can be a dubious proposition. Both times both drummers sent a single line for everything. Even if they could give me 5-8 sends to separate toms, kick, snare, cymbals and hi-hats, I don't usually bring that many D.I.'s to a show. To make matters worse, one of the drummers had a different kit for every "style" of music. "Dude...this is my 'Jazz' sound. And here's my 'Rock' kit...." Ugh. I look forward to the day when a drummer sends me separate channels for everything and has a D.I. array in a rack. Oh to dream....<:^)





The audience can't tell the difference....except the drums always sound killer.



Do you have any videos of your band? I would love to hear you guys!






Our bass player runs DI with a split to a Line 6 Bass amp.



One of my clients uses an IEM and NO amp. It's the only time musicians complain to me that they can't hear the bass...LOL. Naturally I just put Eddie (the bass player) in their wedges, but for the first 30 seconds of sound check, that's usually the biggest complaint I get...LOL...

Eddie uses a 2-channel wireless IEM (PSM-200), so I send him his own monitor mix in the other channel, which he then has overall volume control on. He doesn't sing, but if he did, this would still be a great rig. I've never had so much control over the bass guitar tone.

Occasionally he uses a 3/4 double bass. Only because of SAC am I able to gate the bass in JUST the subs, which allows me to beef it up the subs. Some songs he uses a bow and it's amazing to feel the room shake when he plays certain notes yet no feedback issues. Because the gate is only on the subs, the mains get full range. So no matter how soft he plays, you still hear it through the mains. The subs "kick in" when he plays with a little more force...very natural sounding. One might argue that if the double bass were "set up correctly," feedback might not be an issue. Or that one should "E.Q." it. But I like the gate better...and of my 2 clients who play a double bass, both will feedback through the subs if not gated. Gotta love SAC for that.





Most gigs our stage volume while playing is so low that we can easily talk to one another across the stage.



That's awesome. I'm in an acoustic trio that plays that low and another Blues trio that plays nearly that low. The older I get, the more I hate loud stages...<:^0





Very little Bleed out front. Always get comments from other musicians on the sound. The focus for us as a group is the blending of vocal harmonies and tasty tones from our respective instruments...which is harder to do if the volume is taking one's head off.



Absolutely. Here's the acoustic trio. I sing the baritone parts on this song. I use an IEM during this song to help. However I have traded this for a K8, which I absolutely love. For this gig I use a towel on the snare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsskrBRbFQ

Here's the same band with everything mic'ed up and me running sound wirelessly with SAC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hjJu4EhG6I

[TonyHarvey]

Donnie -

Here's my band using e-drums (6 channels out) and sounding pretty okay I think!

I'm the dweeb playing the keyboard.

http://blip.tv/sgenius/side-show-locomotive-breath-6233017

[Paul Henry]

Whenever I get into the stage volume discussion with a band I always point out that the only real difference between "CD" quality and "live sound" is isolation between microphones. So the less leakage between mics because of stage volume, the closer to "CD" quality I can make them sound.

yes, I know CD quality usually refers to bit and sample rates, and that recordings also benefit from overdubs and editing, but it seems to get the message across most of the time without a longwinded discussion.

[RandyHyde]

The reason most bands face their amps forward is because they don't usually run them through a P.A. system and so that's the way they've "always done it." So when they get on a larger system where their amps are going to be mic'ed, "side-filling" is a pretty easy sale...much easier than "turn it down."

Give it shot. I think you will find that this works best for everyone.

Tried it all. Can't argue with "this is my sound and I don't want you 'messing' with it."

Ultimately, the thing I have to be cognizant of is the fact that I'm providing a service and if they want to do it a certain way, I have to go with what they want. Unless the promoter (who's signing my check) agrees with me, I go with the band's wishes; the fact that I can't do a recording to play back for them is a *very* low priority, to be honest. I'm not going to get some band members needlessly upset with me because I want to justify my purchase of SAW Studio Lite :)

I've had guitar players turn it down during sound check, only to have them sneak the volume back up in several increments while they are playing. I've positioned amps off-stage; but a lot of (especially older/deafer) guitar players listen to their amps with their butts (literally) and can't "play well" if the sound is different from what they are used to in the garage where they practice. In the past I tried to make a big deal about how much better they would sound. After years of beating my head against the wall on this issue, I've given up and decided to make due with what I'm given and do the best job I can. It's happier all around when I go that route. Overall, I'm not going to change the world.

I understand things are a whole lot different when you're touring or mixing for a single band; when you work with a different band every night and rarely get to do the same band twice, you quickly learn that the sound company is not the center of the universe, rather the "talent" is; once I came to this realization, my blood pressure dropped considerably :). Sure, I'll still make suggestions, but the moment I get blow-back from the performers, I just back off. If they are willing to sacrifice their sound quality, who am I to complain? If someone complains to me about "the guitar is too loud" I simply show them my fader at minus infinity, point out that I've made the band aware of the issue, and soldier on.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Donnie Frank]

Donnie -

Here's my band using e-drums (6 channels out) and sounding pretty okay I think!

I'm the dweeb playing the keyboard.

http://blip.tv/sgenius/side-show-locomotive-breath-6233017

Nice! What I like about this video is it's a very good "what you hear is what you get" representation of the band. What I tend to do with my videos is mix in a 2 channel SAC recording (TapeIt plugin) to net a little more clarity. I made a short video to demonstrate how I do this. Nothing magic, but having the board recording really helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qcGa6zI2y8

And though I didn't mix audio or perform in this video, I did take a direct feed off the analog console and mixed it with the live camera mic's. To the sound man's credit, the analog console is located in the dressing room behind the stage. So I have to say sound is pretty good for what he had to work with. This would be a perfect room for SAC. Audio sounds "live," but still has fidelity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8SyS3kfjn4

Here's a band I DID mix using SAC audio mixed with camera audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOgwAJS6UT4

[TonyHarvey]

Nice! What I like about this video is it's a very good "what you hear is what you get" representation of the band. What I tend to do with my videos is mix in a 2 channel SAC recording (TapeIt plugin) to net a little more clarity. I made a short video to demonstrate how I do this. Nothing magic, but having the board recording really helps:


It's almost 'too magic' for me. I end up with a million choices when I multi-track live shows and I never REALLY know how it sounds. With the old 'stereo mic in the air' above my camera I at least get a feel for what it sounded like out front!

[Sound Machine Inc]

3) (the killer) You have to insist that the performers turn their backline *way* down. Even though I might mic the bass and guitar amps, at half my shows the musicians insist on running their amps so loud that we put absolutely nothing into the mix. When you play back the recording, you get nothing for those instruments. Sure, you could record it and then adjust the mix on playback, but that's not the "real" mix appearing in FOH.

After a few failed attempts (because of [3] above), I basically stopped trying to use SAW Studio for this purpose. It's a great device when you can convince the acts to go direct injection or have them turn their amps *way* down (so they don't contribute to the FOH mix), but with the acts I usually work with, this almost never happens.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
gosh darn shame you aren't on THIS coast.. drums are the only live thing on our stage and they MAY be going to v-drums making nothing on stage live.. and only 1 wedge currently, the other 4 on ears.. that's why we used the saw for setup idea.. worked flawlessly

[Donnie Frank]

Tried it all. Can't argue with "this is my sound and I don't want you 'messing' with it."



But that's the beauty here. Sidefilling doesn't negate their "sound." The same volume will sound 20dB quieter from FOH if you sidefill the amp. They can still "crank it" and you don't have to deal with the brain-splitting 1K bleeding off the stage.





Ultimately, the thing I have to be cognizant of is the fact that I'm providing a service and if they want to do it a certain way, I have to go with what they want.



Just curious... Are you a musician, Randy? The reason I ask is because you seem to feel there's no wiggle room here. Any more these days, very few musicians aren't willing to work with the sound company. When you sell it like, "It will sound better out front," it's usually a pretty easy sale. I always act like I have no dog in that hunt. "It's your band. I'm just telling you what sounds best. Do what you wish." I never speak one-on-one, but to the band as a whole. This usually facilitates peer pressure to conform to what makes them sound best. Ultimately this is what they want.





Unless the promoter (who's signing my check) agrees with me, I go with the band's wishes; the fact that I can't do a recording to play back for them is a *very* low priority, to be honest.



I agree. I hit the "record" button and if it all comes out, then great. Maybe I'll make a video and promote the band (which ultimately promotes my sound company).









I'm not going to get some band members needlessly upset with me because I want to justify my purchase of SAW Studio Lite :)



LOL...well..."the side fill sale" is not for the recording. Side filling benefits the *live* sound.






I've had guitar players turn it down during sound check, only to have them sneak the volume back up in several increments while they are playing. I've positioned amps off-stage; but a lot of (especially older/deafer) guitar players listen to their amps with their butts (literally) and can't "play well" if the sound is different from what they are used to in the garage where they practice.



Hmmmm.... Interesting assessment. I've never had a guitar player tell me he hears his amp "too well" from the side. Interesting.... I mean, if they *dare* to complain that their own amp is too loud from the side, your reply should be, "Exactly. Imagine how it sounds to the first row." It's easy to appeal to a guitar player's ego: "Turn it up and I'll have to take it out of the P.A. If you want *everyone* to hear you, turn down so I can put you back in the mains."







In the past I tried to make a big deal about how much better they would sound. After years of beating my head against the wall on this issue, I've given up and decided to make due with what I'm given and do the best job I can.



For the larger, outdoor shows you do, maybe it's not a huge deal. But in a club situation it is. One venue I perform in - Route 66 Casino - *insists* that all the amps face backward, or you simply aren't allowed to perform there. Some bass players don't use a cabinet at all (just their pre-amps). Acoustic players play strictly through the wedges.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmK9ToxmEow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlBRX6-y0jY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUD4zNHRsjw

It's difficult to tell, but all the amps are facing backward toward the curtain or there are no amps at all (some bass players).






It's happier all around when I go that route. Overall, I'm not going to change the world.

I understand things are a whole lot different when you're touring or mixing for a single band; when you work with a different band every night and rarely get to do the same band twice, you quickly learn that the sound company is not the center of the universe, rather the "talent" is; once I came to this realization, my blood pressure dropped considerably :).



Hehe....well musicians are like Bulldogs. Sometimes you have to push back a little harder, that's all. Not such a big deal for outdoor shows. But in casinos with horrible acoustics (I know, ironic), the venue manager rules the roost. And if he complains to me, the s*** rolls down hill. So I warn the band ahead of time that they can do it my way or deal with the complaints from management, which may negate a return engagement. In this case I becomes the musician's best ally in the war to stay working. Being easy on them does them a disservice. As a musician myself, I know of what I speak. There are a lot of other pro musicians on this forum that will probably back me up on this. When push comes to shove:

1) Working is better than not working.
2) The better we sound, the better chance we have of working. Check your egos at the door.

I would love to stage manage one of your shows. There are ways to tactfully get your message across. But again, you're doing bigger outdoor shows, so stage volume isn't as much of an issue.





Sure, I'll still make suggestions, but the moment I get blow-back from the performers, I just back off. If they are willing to sacrifice their sound quality, who am I to complain?



Exactly. I'm not an audio Nazi. I just give them the information:

1) I'm only here to make you sound better.
2) Management will complain if it's too loud.
3) More than 2 complaints greatly reduce your chances of a return engagement.





If someone complains to me about "the guitar is too loud" I simply show them my fader at minus infinity, point out that I've made the band aware of the issue, and soldier on.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

Ahhhh...so you're given the *option* to allow it to continue to be loud? I guess this is where our environments differ. I'm told in so many words that the band had BETTER turn down or else. In this case I sell myself as "the messenger" and not the sound guy. In mixing hundreds of shows over the years I've honestly met none of the resistance you're speaking of. I'm not doubting your veracity. Things may be different in California or maybe the fact that I'm a known musician in this area for over 30 years and perform with 5 bands gives me some credibility. Who knows??? It probably helps that I post YouTube videos of these bands so they can see how good I make them sound. I think I'm up to 230 YouTube videos. At least 200 of those are either performances of my own or bands I've mixed.

Good conversation. It's interesting to hear another audio engineer's take on musician interface in other situations in other parts of the country. I guess "one size fits all" doesn't apply here. Thanx for sharing your experience.

[Donnie Frank]

gosh darn shame you aren't on THIS coast.. drums are the only live thing on our stage and they MAY be going to v-drums making nothing on stage live.. and only 1 wedge currently, the other 4 on ears.. that's why we used the saw for setup idea.. worked flawlessly

Funny...but my style of playing has greatly changed since I became an audio engineer in 2007. Gone are the days of big, loud cymbals and riding the hi-hat open at full force. I started playing traditional grip for most of my bands because I simply play with less force that way. Even at outdoor shows I play with small, quiet gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpXURNsN7do

Even if backline is provided, I still try to play with dynamics. This was a large, outdoor festival:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvbqIDs_n-M

Still like acoustic drums....<;^)

[Donnie Frank]

It's almost 'too magic' for me. I end up with a million choices when I multi-track live shows and I never REALLY know how it sounds. With the old 'stereo mic in the air' above my camera I at least get a feel for what it sounded like out front!

I couldn't agree more regarding "too many choices." To be clear, I just use a 2-channel recording off the main output. If I had 16 tracks AND live audio, it would take me weeks to finish a single video. I generally crank out videos in roughly 2 or 3 hours.

[Jeff Scott]

Donny: no ...no video's worth showing of the band as of yet. Got a few sets worth of SawStudio Lite tracks but that's about it.

As an aside...My drummer has modified his Acoustic shells to trigger the Yamaha drum brain. I forgot how he did it but essentially the Drum skin acts as the trigger surface. It feels no different from a regular acoustic drum when you strike it. The drum Head, trigger, dampening materials are such that the sensitivity is extremely fine when compared to a standard Rubber pad...or even the Vdrum mesh heads. (i hate the way those feel....and I'm a know nothing guitar player...;))

Randy...I know what you are saying about the guitar players who are set on having the amp drive into their butts. In every instance, when I've had them point the amp at their head's ...and maybe turn it down a little...they say they hate the sound..."It sounds terrible" they complain. Well...what do you think you've been feeding that SM 57 and the Front of House system all those years?????:eek:

Point it at your head...dial in something that actually sounds good onstage and out front ....and get on with the show:rolleyes:

[Soundguy]

Tried it all. Can't argue with "this is my sound and I don't want you 'messing' with it."

Ultimately, the thing I have to be cognizant of is the fact that I'm providing a service and if they want to do it a certain way, I have to go with what they want. Unless the promoter (who's signing my check) agrees with me, I go with the band's wishes; the fact that I can't do a recording to play back for them is a *very* low priority, to be honest.

I'm with Randy on this. Without responding to every post in this thread, all of this discussion about controlling guitar player volume must be something limited to the club scene in strange places, because it certainly IS NOT the case on the typical concert stage ... including small scale concerts or club concerts ... or heck, even local bars.

I am there to provide a service, not to convince a band to set up their stage differently than they are accustomed, or differently than their role models do, or tell them how to make their instrument sound. Now, the occasional suggestion that something on the stage may be a bit too loud in the balance of things is acceptable, but all of this other stuff about convincing musicians to move amps around and tilting them is nonsense in my opinion. You have to be in a REALLY small room with an underpowered system if a stage volume is overpowering the PA. Heck, just don't mic it if it's too loud.

The guitar amp usually sounds best to me when it sounds best to the guitar player. Having the speaker cabinet sit on the deck (as opposed to tilting back) couples the box to the deck and the overall sound is warmer and fatter. I don't even like it when the guitar speaker cabinet is left in the case bottom with wheels to make load out easier. Put the damn thing on the deck, lazy.

Soundguy

[Jeff Scott]

I think we're definitely talking about small clubs vs. the concert stage. You and Randy do a lot larger gigs than many of us here.

Mind you...I sat thru a Motley Crue concert a few years ago that was so freakin loud on the guitars off the stage...you couldn't hear the bass or any vocals. We knew Tommy Lee was playing cause you heard a High hat splash now and then....;)

That wasn't fun...and it sounded like crap. Hardly improved as the night wore on.

[Soundguy]

I think we're definitely talking about small clubs vs. the concert stage. You and Randy do a lot larger gigs than many of us here.

I do more than my share of club gigs, both as a musician and a sound guy, and just don't have the experiences you guys talk about. If the band sucks, none of this matters anyhow. If the audience thinks it's too loud, they leave, or move to the back. If there is a SPL rule in the house (like at some outdoor venues near residential neighborhoods), everyone knows about it and works to keep it under control. I don't need to be the volume police of the artists. The house volume police can take care of that. If something is overbearing loud and bugs me, I mention it. That's the end of it.



Mind you...I sat thru a Motley Crue concert a few years ago that was so freakin' loud on the guitars off the stage...you couldn't hear the bass or any vocals.I stumbled on a Motley Crue performance at a festival a few years ago and it sounded AWESOME. I'm not a fan, but was quite impressed with the presentation. Yeah, it was loud, but it supposed to be. I could hear everything BTW. You may not be a fan of loud guitar rock, but they have millions of fans.

Soundguy

[Jeff Scott]

I'm a fan of Loud Rock Guitar. Starting with VH and moving thru the 80's metal scene...no.. this Crue concert...the sound was so loud it seemed to physically distort in the arena. My three buddies and I ..all seasoned musicians, all familiar with Crue's music..having covered our fair share of it in our road days...could barley tell what the first 3 songs were..it was so loud as to be indistinguishable. We were up in the Luxury box seats...so maybe down on the Concert floor at mix position it sounded good...hard to tell. My ears rang for three days after that. Must be getting old.

What's your experience? Life doesn't permit me to get to a whole lot of arena events these days...Can the sound be ok at mix position but be that distorted in other area's?

[gdougherty]

I'm a fan of Loud Rock Guitar. Starting with VH and moving thru the 80's metal scene...no.. this Crue concert...the sound was so loud it seemed to physically distort in the arena. My three buddies and I ..all seasoned musicians, all familiar with Crue's music..having covered our fair share of it in our road days...could barley tell what the first 3 songs were..it was so loud as to be indistinguishable. We were up in the Luxury box seats...so maybe down on the Concert floor at mix position it sounded good...hard to tell. My ears rang for three days after that. Must be getting old.

What's your experience? Life doesn't permit me to get to a whole lot of arena events these days...Can the sound be ok at mix position but be that distorted in other area's?

Absolutely. The coverage pattern of your typical speaker will not hit FOH on the floor and a balcony. To get volume to higher and further back seats will require greater volume at the source which could very easily throw noticeable distortion out to you while the FOH gets a much cleaner mix considering that distortion in the more directional higher frequencies is much more noticeable to most ears.

[Soundguy]

Modern loudspeaker technology has improved concert sound by leaps and bounds over what was available ten years ago, even five years ago.

The design concept of line array system is to aim the sound where you want it and not where you don't. You are able control the volume and EQ of each speaker or sets of speakers ... usually in sets of two or three boxes if using external amps, or with each box using self powered boxes.

Using predictive software you can enter the dimensions of the building and various zones as provided by building plans, or rough dimensions you measure yourself using laser measuring devices. Using the software you can then calculate how to fly the line array and how to angle each of the boxes, and "gain shade" the volume of the boxes for equal coverage throughout.

Now it isn't perfect, but it's damn effective. Most sound companies now use line arrays. I see them at least 85***37; of the time, even when they are stage stacked in low ceiling rooms.

Some of the major touring sound companies have not taken their old rigs out of service since they still work, and offer them at reduced prices, although they seem to be fading away. Those old rigs are of the old theory of "hang a bunch of stacked three way speakers and fill the room with loud sound", with very little control over vertical coverage, and all kinds of problems created with overlapping horizontal coverage.

Soundguy

[erlohr]

Sure, I'll still make suggestions, but the moment I get blow-back from the performers, I just back off. If they are willing to sacrifice their sound quality, who am I to complain? If someone complains to me about "the guitar is too loud" I simply show them my fader at minus infinity, point out that I've made the band aware of the issue, and soldier on.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

+1 on that

[Jeff Scott]

Makes sense... Thanks for the input....

[Donnie Frank]

All of this discussion about controlling guitar player volume must be something limited to the club scene



Pretty much, but more so in casinos. Exactly.







because it certainly IS NOT the case on the typical concert stage ...



Bingo.






including small scale concerts or club concerts ...



If by "club concerts" you mean Las Vegas shows or the like, I would disagree. You might want to ask Bob or Ricci Dustin about that one. Ricci's been mixing at Harrah's for years. When I saw his show the volume felt like 90 or so dB...very palatable. That was with a full band on stage, dancers, etc. All venues are like that in Vegas. I can imagine the volume guidelines are clearly laid out and strictly adhered to. New Mexico Casinos are as strict, but the line in the sand isn't as clear.





or heck, even local bars.



I'm not sure where you live, but here local bars *definitely* have volume limitations. Bands are not allowed to play as loud as they want. By my estimate, 100 dB seems to be the magic number with some as low as 95 dB. Wedding receptions are even less. I had an 11-piece band at 90dB at FOH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyekKwTPWk0

Maybe next time they'll hire a lighting company.

Some bars are more lenient than others, but they always have a noise limit...at least it's that way around here. I'll entertain the possibility that things are different in your neck of the woods. Where do you live?





I am there to provide a service,



To whom? Regardless of who's paying me, my service duties encompass the band, venue management, wait staff and customers. With very little exception, if *anyone* complains about the volume, it comes back to me. And though a single customer certainly carries less weight than venue management, if enough customers complain to management, ultimately it comes back to me, which I then convey to the band. Enough complaints and I will be given an ultimatum, and it won't be a good one. Ask any of the professional musicians in this forum who work clubs and they'll tell you.

So, if I can nip these problems in the bud by having a guitar player side-fill his amp at the beginning of the night, I do so. I've had no resistance from any of my clients in this regard. They get that I'm on their side. I'm not trying to screw them or make their guitar sound bad. Quite the opposite. The more they're in the P.A., the more they'll be heard by everybody, as opposed to just the people sitting on the guitar player's side of the stage.

Part of my job or my "service" is to make sure the band gets rehired. I have a vested financial interest in their employment. Outdoors or in a large concert arena the band has much more volume license than in a small club setting. A 200 seat club doesn't need or want 100dB at the bar. They need to hear drink orders to sell drinks to pay the band to pay me. If the guitar or bass or cymbals are 104dB at the bar, well then I have to say something...which might include a towel on the snare drum. Try selling THAT to a drummer. Getting a guitar player to side fill is a walk in the park compared to getting a drummer to put a towel on his snare. But sometimes that's what you have to do. Here are some "towel on the snare" videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYGVJaQ-9w0

And here they are again. They were rehired for the following year. They were pretty happy about that. Volume was a HUGE issue at this show. The audience demographic average 60 years of age. I got it down to 94dB at FOH. NOT easy with this band, but they worked with me and we got rehired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMbEVGSYa4g

Making the band sound good in any situation with strict dB regulation sometimes requires more than dropping the guitar player's fader to -60dB. Since Randy seems to do mid-size outdoor shows, what he does is probably closer to the large-scale concerts you speak off and less to do with the smaller club/casino gigs I do.







not to convince a band to set up their stage differently than they are accustomed, or differently than their role models do, or tell them how to make their instrument sound.



I haven't had any problems getting bands to side fill their amps. They know I'm on their side and the request is in their better interest. I make myself part of their team...even if it's for just one set. As a musician, I have worked with many audio engineers with a bad attitude. If they hate their job or musicians that much, they're in the wrong business. I come in with a "big hug" style of interfacing. Yes, I work FOR the musicians, but at the same time I am their ally in the war against crappy sound. And everyone wants to be rehired. I work on both sides of the fence regularly, so I have a unique perspective and perhaps a little more respect from local musicians. I *love* mixing sound and I genuinely like musicians. I think it shows.







Now, the occasional suggestion that something on the stage may be a bit too loud in the balance of things is acceptable, but all of this other stuff about convincing musicians to move amps around and tilting them is nonsense in my opinion.



Then we should just agree to disagree. In my opinion, my mix sounds better when I have control over it.





You have to be in a REALLY small room with an underpowered system if a stage volume is overpowering the PA. Heck, just don't mic it if it's too loud.



My standard club system is 10,800 watts. So P.A. is never a problem.

If the guitar player is willing to cooperate, this can be done but then there's issue of the guitar being quieter when he's standing in front of the amp, but then he moves away and the volume goes up a 5-10dB. In some of my personal bands we mic nothing but vox for smaller rooms, and it sounds pretty good. But everyone cooperates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuHH0ziZxoM

Or these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsskrBRbFQ





The guitar amp usually sounds best to me when it sounds best to the guitar player. Having the speaker cabinet sit on the deck (as opposed to tilting back) couples the box to the deck and the overall sound is warmer and fatter. I don't even like it when the guitar speaker cabinet is left in the case bottom with wheels to make load out easier. Put the damn thing on the deck, lazy.

Soundguy

I couldn't agree more.

[Soundguy]

I fully expect you to be adamant about your way of doing things, which in my opinion are typically making mountains out of molehills regarding minor problems ... easily fixed everyday.

I'm going to stick with my method ... shared by the masses ... to simply ask someone to turn down a bit if needed. It's easy and it usually works ... and then move on to bigger and better things.

Soundguy

[Donnie Frank]

I do more than my share of club gigs, both as a musician and a sound guy, and just don't have the experiences you guys talk about.



I have to ask where you live. Because I may move there...<;^)






If the band sucks, none of this matters anyhow.



LOL...I couldn't agree more!






If the audience thinks it's too loud, they leave, or move to the back. If there is a SPL rule in the house (like at some outdoor venues near residential neighborhoods), everyone knows about it and works to keep it under control. I don't need to be the volume police of the artists.



I guess we differ here. If the venue complains to me (and they will - they don't approach the stage), then I consider it my job - my responsibility - to pass that information on to the band accordingly. I'll tell them, "Hey guys...management just complained I need XXXX to turn down." This is not a big deal. I've had nothing but cooperation from my clients. If the guitar player reaches a point where he feels he can't hear himself, I'll put him in his wedge and/or we'll side fill his amp during the break.







The house volume police can take care of that.




In what way? If by "volume police" you mean venue management, I would be curious to know how they negate the situation. Management knows it's loud. They don't know who the offender is. I, However, do know who the offender is. I know WHY it's loud and can target the offending musician(s) and orchestrate adjustments on stage.

Do the "volume police" you speak approach the stage??? 'Cause around here they simply complain to me.





If something is overbearing loud and bugs me, I mention it. That's the end of it.



What if the offending musician doesn't turn down and venue management complains again? This not a "rare" scenario. I try to avoid multiple complaints at all costs, but occasionally it happens, in which case I feel it my responsibility to not only pass this information on to the band, but help them with solutions to the problem.








I stumbled on a Motley Crue performance at a festival a few years ago and it sounded AWESOME.



I saw Motly Crue in Dallas, and yeah, the sound was great...from the seats. It was louder than s*** though. Of the 6 guys I went with, I was the only one who brought ear plugs. All 6 guys were asking to borrow ear plugs by the end of the first song. But if you were standing in front of the guitar rig, that's probably all you heard. That was a couple decades ago when bands used to have loud amps on stage. Now most of those guys have their amps UNDER the stage. I ran a truss spot for The Scorpions roughly 10 years ago. They were all IEM with zero amps on stage. Of the 3 or so dozen shows I've run truss spot, that was the only show I didn't need my ClearComm on nearly full volume. It was amazing how quiet it was on stage. The days of simply throwing a loud amp on stage and facing it out towards the audience are fading. Amps on stage are hollow cabinets - props. Kiss did it this way. But I'm sure I don't have to tell you that.

[Donnie Frank]

What's your experience? Life doesn't permit me to get to a whole lot of arena events these days...Can the sound be ok at mix position but be that distorted in other area's?

I saw Elton John at the Pan Am Center in Dallas, Texas in like 2002(?). We were in the cheapie $125.00 seats. I have to say that I was amazed at how pristine the sound was. I walked the room and it was this way everywhere you went. Their audio engineer definitely earned his pay check. Speaker technology - and specifically array technology - just keeps getting better and better. It's quite amazing how they can "steer" sound to be equal in all the seats.

[Donnie Frank]

I fully expect you to be adamant about your way of doing things, which in my opinion are typically making mountains out of molehills regarding minor problems ... easily fixed everyday.

I'm going to stick with my method ... shared by the masses ... to simply ask someone to turn down a bit if needed. It's easy and it usually works ... and then move on to bigger and better things.




Just sharing experiences here. Not trying to change anybody's mind on anything. Your way works for you in your environment and mine works in my environment. I would venture to say we're both professional enough that we know what we're doing in our given environments. Obviously we have both achieved a level of success, so don't fix it if it works.

It would be interesting to see some of your work and your work environment. You can see in my videos that I deal with a multitude of environments and situations which range from dinner sets at Applebee's to larger outdoor shows. My clients range from balls-to-the-wall Rock-n-Roll bands to 11 piece wedding bands. When it comes to audio there's no "one size fits all." That's why I like sharing these experiences and seeing the results other guys get in other situations. It makes us all better audio engineers.

[Soundguy]

When it comes to audio there's no "one size fits all." That's why I like sharing these experiences and seeing the results other guys get in other situations. It makes us all better audio engineers.

I think that depends if you have something to offer, or just taking up massive amounts of bandwidth because your full of yourself.

Soundguy

[Donnie Frank]

I think that depends if you have something to offer, or just taking up bandwidth because your full of yourself.

Soundguy

Another thing we both agree on. Scrolling is pretty easy...easier than getting a guy to side fill his amp. I choose to read everything because I think everyone has something to offer. One never knows when one might learn something from someone with far less experience then themselves. Happens all the time in musician circles. I imagine it's the same for production, too.