Consolidating SAC System into single case [Archive]

Doug_Danforth

09-30-2012, 07:41 AM

Not sure if this is appropriate but feel free to delete if it is too far off topic.

We want to get all of our components into a single rack system. Computer, monitor, 3 ADAs, 3 IEMs, and 3 amps. As such I have been looking at single rack unit power amps.

Does anybody have any experience with either the Behringer Europower EPQ450 or the Europower EPQ304?

Our power needs are modest and we already have a Peavey IPR1600 that works nicely for our subs. These new amps would be for monitor duty and mains.

Obviously price is a big consideration. :)

Thanks,

Doug Danforth

JeremyJo

09-30-2012, 07:55 AM

What about two-space, four channel amps? That's good economy of space and offers more potential power if your needs grow.

Doug_Danforth

09-30-2012, 09:31 AM

What about two-space, four channel amps? That's good economy of space and offers more potential power if your needs grow.

The EPQ304 is a 4 channel amp that fits in one space. It only provides 4 x 50W into 8 Ohms so that is probably enough for monitor world but maybe not for mains.

So, I'm thinking that one EPQ304 for monitors and one EPQ 450 (2x130W into 8 Ohms) for mains would give me 6 channels in two spaces - which is just about all the space I have available in my rack.

Doug

RBIngraham

09-30-2012, 09:35 AM

There are also some decent 8 channel amps. You can often bridge channels so you could have 4 lower wattage channels and run with 2 bridge channels at higher power. I think they are 2 or 3 rack spaces.

Mattseymour

09-30-2012, 09:54 AM

As you're in Dublin I'd take a look at the amps Thomann offer. I've got one of the d4-500 and the larger heavier one, forget the model. I haven't subjected either to any real punishment but you get a 3 year warranty which is hard to argue with.

They're cheapo Chinese made but the only real criticisms in the found of these is their 2ohm performance isn't what's promised. Given 2ohms operation is a fools game imho I don't think that's an issue.

The d4-500 is rated at 250wpc into 8ohms. Much more headroom than the behringer and still only 1u. It will bridge into 8ohms too.

Initial casual use is favourable. They sound fine and seem loud enough to justify the power ratings.

RBIngraham

09-30-2012, 11:47 AM

He is in Dublin, OH. The OH is Ohio. :)

Brent Evans

09-30-2012, 01:29 PM

Doug,

If they ever show back up on eBay, check out the GTD M-2500 amps. The price is right, and they work quite well. We have several of them in installs, and they're running reliably.

For a bit more change, Bose has the PM-8500 which is a neat 8 channel amp that can be configured as 8 single channels, 4 bridged pairs, two bridged quads, or any combination thereof. Supposedly it has all the DSP you want built in. I've been looking for a job in which to spec one to try it out, just haven't found the right place yet.

Ashly also has something similar, except it only does single channels or bridged pairs.

BTW, we did put the EPQ304 into an install... it's pretty puny.

BE

Mattseymour

09-30-2012, 02:47 PM

He is in Dublin, OH. The OH is Ohio. :)

Ah. I forget the US lacks any original names ;)

Well... Should there be any one over there selling the kobble amps, whichever model is branded as the Thomann d4-500 is worth a look.

AntonZ

09-30-2012, 03:27 PM

BTW, we did put the EPQ304 into an install... it's pretty puny.

Out of interest: what did you use the EPQ304 for? Monitor duty or something else? I've been thinking of it if we ever go to separate monitor mixes for everyone in the band. Not sure if we will ever go there, though. Our wedges are pretty efficient, so don't need huge power. But in my experience few things are more annoying in a monitor mix than having an amp that doesn't cut it.

Butch Bos

09-30-2012, 03:46 PM

Brent Evans

09-30-2012, 06:36 PM

Out of interest: what did you use the EPQ304 for? Monitor duty or something else?

It was a zone amp in a funeral home. It did OK for that purpose (as I said, it's puny, but the requirements were very light). Even so, we've decided not to use it again, but that has more to do with not using anything Behringer any more... too many failures.

Haysus

09-30-2012, 07:28 PM

I have been using Carvin 4 channel for monitors for about 2 years now and works great. 8 ohms delivers 300watts and can be bridged and weighs 10lbs.

I wish they had built in dsp.

I have in my rack:
1 headphone amp
3 ADA8000
XTI 2000
XTI 4000
Carvin DCM2004L
4U computer
Monitor and keys built into slant top space
Router floats around inside

Craig Allen

09-30-2012, 07:58 PM

Doug_Danforth

10-01-2012, 03:46 AM

Doug,

For a bit more change, Bose has the PM-8500 which is a neat 8 channel amp that can be configured as 8 single channels, 4 bridged pairs, two bridged quads, or any combination thereof. Supposedly it has all the DSP you want built in. I've been looking for a job in which to spec one to try it out, just haven't found the right place yet.BE

For $4,000 it had better also play bass and run lights for me :-)

BTW, we did put the EPQ304 into an install... it's pretty puny.
BE

Puny in output or puny in size? I'm using BFM monitors so 50W each should be enough but that doesn't leave a lot of headroom. Of course that might be a good thing.

"Sorry that's as loud as it goes, we'd better all turn down"

Thanks,

Doug

Doug_Danforth

10-01-2012, 03:54 AM

Check out ART SLA 4
Single rack 4 ch 100Watt at 8 ohm per ch I have used them for monitors with jazz and mild country acts with good results
Also ART SLA 2 200 watt per ch again at 8 ohm

They don't really like being run at 4 ohm at high power levels so just 1 speaker per ch
Since they are rated at 8 ohm they are equivalent to amps about twice their size

Butch

These look interesting. I'm assuming that ART amps (products) have a better reputation than Behringer?

I'm OK with Behringer (our needs are simple) but I would be willing to spend a few dollars more for something more reliable. Plus these have more power.

Thanks,

Doug

Dan Fulton

10-01-2012, 05:55 AM

you could always go with a lab amp 4 channel for the price of the bose! and get the lake proccessing engine

Brent Evans

10-01-2012, 06:21 AM

For $4,000 it had better also play bass and run lights for me :-)

Is that how much MAP is on that thing? Crazy. I never asked what the retail price was.... I do a lot of work our local Bose Pro dealer and we've just talked about it a few times.

Puny in output or puny in size? I'm using BFM monitors so 50W each should be enough but that doesn't leave a lot of headroom. Of course that might be a good thing.
Puny in output and sound quality. It clips at +6, and its 50W of power just doesn't seem quite like a true 50W by any other OEM.

Haysus

10-01-2012, 09:23 AM

I'd like to see pics of that if you don't mind.

I did have some floating around the forum. They must have been swept under the carpet. I have 2 shows this weekend and get some more pics.

Craig Allen

10-01-2012, 10:19 AM

I did have some floating around the forum. They must have been swept under the carpet. I have 2 shows this weekend and get some more pics.

Thanks!

Mattseymour

10-02-2012, 12:51 AM

Puny in output and sound quality. It clips at +6, and its 50W of power just doesn't seem quite like a true 50W by any other OEM.

I've always thought it best to divide Behringer's power ratings by 10.

Brent Evans

10-02-2012, 11:50 AM

I've always thought it best to divide Behringer's power ratings by 10.

Heh.. maybe not by ten. The EP series does OK, but I wasn't thrilled with any of the EPQs we used, and we haven't tried the iNukes, but reviews aren't great.

For installs we use mostly XTIs right now, and occasionally QSC GX3s as zone amps. I also like the Peavey IPR series (have them in my portable rig) but brand snobbery still exists for them on the larger scale. I think they make some good products, but they used to make some really bad products too. Maybe in twenty years, I'll be able to say that about Behringer... but not yet.

brent

10-02-2012, 01:31 PM

Heh.. maybe not by ten. The EP series does OK, but I wasn't thrilled with any of the EPQs we used, and we haven't tried the iNukes, but reviews aren't great.

For installs we use mostly XTIs right now, and occasionally QSC GX3s as zone amps. I also like the Peavey IPR series (have them in my portable rig) but brand snobbery still exists for them on the larger scale. I think they make some good products, but they used to make some really bad products too. Maybe in twenty years, I'll be able to say that about Behringer... but not yet.

We have had lots of problems with the IPRs. Those are a good way to sell a Crown or a QSC for us. The only reason Peavey products were considered bad, was because they were facing what Behringer is now. They were making more than anyone else, and why their failure rate was low, it still felt like it was higher because of the sheer volume. Peavey was used outside of it's intended markets, and that above anything else tarnished the name. Some of their designers were Crown, Shure, JBL, Bell Labs, etc design engineers, some of the best in the business.

Brent Evans

10-02-2012, 01:47 PM

We have had lots of problems with the IPRs. Those are a good way to sell a Crown or a QSC for us. The only reason Peavey products were considered bad, was because they were facing what Behringer is now. They were making more than anyone else, and why their failure rate was low, it still felt like it was higher because of the sheer volume. Peavey was used outside of it's intended markets, and that above anything else tarnished the name. Some of their designers were Crown, Shure, JBL, Bell Labs, etc design engineers, some of the best in the business.

What kinds of problems have you had with the IPRs... I have 8 of them in my system and 4 in another install.. no major issues to report...

Mattseymour

10-03-2012, 05:49 AM

Mmmm in fairness my experience of Peavey is their amps always had a decent reputation as being solid work horses... their speakers sounded pretty bad (talking about the old Hi-sys series about 20 years ago)... Then again a local venue had a Peavey system in that sounded pretty poor but kept on working through years of abuse. Even had holes in the sub drivers for about 4 years.

I don't see Behringer as in the same league. Their kit may have reasonable return rates (within warranty) compared to many but long term reliability is poor. I've owned a lot of Behringer kit, old and new, analogue and digital and I've had problems with most of it within what I'd consider an acceptable working lifespan.

Peavey kit I've owned has been far more reliable in the long haul.

I too have got a couple of IPRs and they seem pretty good. I haven't heard bad reports about them unless you're using them for the use cases they're specifically not suitable for... and there are a few that are a bit strange because they work differently to most other amps out there, even other class D amps. Something to do with integrating the power supply to the amplifier in a clever way.

AntonZ

10-03-2012, 02:37 PM

I've had a fan fail on an IPR1600, made it go into protect when pushed a bit harder. Reseating the fan cable connector was enough to fix it. Never heard anyone else have that issue so I don't think it is a structural problem with the amp design or whatever. Other than that it has been solid. The power to weight ratio is positively insane.

Haysus

10-07-2012, 11:30 AM

Pics as requested. Its not the cleanest setup but it has worked for me for 3 years. The Carvin amp really makes life easy. They have plenty of power. 300 watts per channel and $140 per channel is a great deal in my book. I wish I could afford 2 four channel Lab Gruppens to simplify things even more.($$$:eek:)

The one thing I would change is the computer case. It weighs 40lbs unloaded and is 3u.:mad: A bit more research and I could have got a 2u case and atleast half the weight. The total weight of the rig is about 120lbs. I have a ramp to load it into the van and I can tilt it up to to overcome threshholds and single steps.

Brent Evans

10-07-2012, 07:03 PM

Here's how I did it...

http://www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum/download/file.php?id=5463

The second amp rack is technically from my "B" system, but this gig requires two separate stereo FOH feeds, so I bring in the B amp rack to do monitors.

The case came from OSP when you could buy direct from them. It is designed for a rackmount mixer on top, but I just put a piece of plywood across there to set the server monitor on. I really like the server monitor for this purpose, since it folds up for protection during travel (I usually store it and my router in the mic box which is the brown suitcase). The back cover for the rack has the fold-out table leg, which is handy to mix on or to put wireless gear and DMX on if I'm at FOH with the rack.

It all packs up and rolls pretty nicely. I can maneuver it by myself in most circumstances (thanks to the 7lb IPR amps... if they were anything else it would be a two man job all the time).

Andy Hamm

10-07-2012, 09:36 PM

I don't put amps in my mixracks because racks and stacks are someone elses's business. What I do is make sure that everything is compact and all fits into one case, so both of my mixracks are totally self contained.

Here is my walk in rack, the monitor fits into the back lid, and I have a laptop bag velcro'd into the front lid where the keyboard and mouse live along with the in ear recievers and everything else I need for that system.

http://www.fohdaw.com/pics/MR-2.jpg

Sorry for the crappy phone pic. I just added a BCF2000 to this rig, and it is too big to fit into the lid of a six space rack. Also, the current UPS doesn't have a home in this rack either, so I have to move it all into an eight space rack to keep it all nicely packaged together. The 1U PC is a little louder than a 2 or 3U, so I am only running the PSU and CPU fans.

tubetonez

10-10-2012, 10:44 AM

I've done several gigs with all-in-one rack. To me, the downside is cable routing on/around the stage - it can get messy quick with all of the inputs, outputs, and AC going to one spot. On large outdoor stages it took some maneuvering just to get the speaker & mic runs to reach.

I just got a couple of 8 channel stage box snakes to help, but I'm going to put the amps in separate racks. Leave the snakes connected to the pre's and store where the amps were in mix rack - which will probably weigh about the same lol. Eventually plan to have L/R amp racks, 4u or 6u, and run powered monitors.

Doug_Danforth

11-10-2012, 07:27 AM

Finally got our system assembled. Everything is now in the one rack so all we do is roll it in, plug in the power and speaker cables and we are live.

Went with the ART 4 channel amp for monitors instead of the Behringer. Router and mouse store inside for travel. Antennas for IEM and wireless mic just fold down for travel.

This gives us 3 IEM and 5 other monitors, stereo L & R for mains and one amp channel for subs. This rack has wings on either side similar to the pic Brent posted. I usually just use one side.

I am a little worried about the heat issue for the ADAs but I only use Phantom power on the top unit and I have left a space above that unit on one side.

I still need to tidy up the cables in the back but at least everything fits!

Here are some pics.

Doug

operationwhat

11-10-2012, 09:12 AM

Niiiiicceeeeeeeeee!!!!! :)

gdougherty

11-10-2012, 09:41 AM

Logitech makes a nice wireless keyboard that has a track pad on it. Trackpads aren't the best in SAC, but if it's just the host it may work well enough for setups.

Doug_Danforth

11-10-2012, 12:57 PM

Logitech makes a nice wireless keyboard that has a track pad on it. Trackpads aren't the best in SAC, but if it's just the host it may work well enough for setups.

My mouse is a trackball which velcros to the side of the case. Took a little while to get used to moving the cursor with my thumb on the ball, but it works.

Doug

keithsplace

11-11-2012, 02:47 PM

Something you might not have condidered in your rack, which I incorporated and you may take a look at, from the link in my signature.
I put the in/out patch panels on the rear of the case for everything.
All inputs, outputs, and even have basic club setup ALL-IN-ONE case.
You will also see that the headphone amp is in the rear for space in the front.
Most of time I roll the rig in next to stage out of the way. Plug in the 1U space UPS which the SAC, ADA's, Presonus Mic Pre's and word clock,
and wireless are powered. Then a seperate circuit that powers the Amps.
The Mains, Subs, and two channels of monitors, plug right in.
I usually run the show from a laptop remote, any good spot in the club.
and I can move around to find the sweet and bad spots and adjust if nessisary.
I have used this set up in small and large clubs, and I even run a festival with 30 bands in two day event.
Although I do a run a snake for that gig it's outdoor event and about 75' from stage.
I wanted to have the mic pre's at hand and use dual monitors for that.

I had Dual Mains, Subs on seperate faders, and 5 monitor mixes for that gig.
And used remote at the stage for monitors. Worked flawless.
I use in the rack 3 Crown Drive Core amps two XLS2500's one for subs and one for mains and one XLS1500 for two monitor channels.
All 3 amps add only about as much as one of my older CE2000's, less than 30Lbs for all three.

Doug_Danforth

11-12-2012, 08:17 AM

Hi Keith,

Thanks, these are great suggestions. I have been considering adding a panel on the back for the inputs to tidy things up and avoid repeatedly plugging cables into the ADA jacks on the front. There is probably enough clearance to just leave the snakes plugged in to the panel and then unroll for the gig.

I may also add a panel with a fan to keep things cool.

Doug