X-Keys, Keyboards, etc

[Tree Leopard]

Hi,

When I first got Basic I could see right away the advantage of using macros... That is, until I realized - as Bob had already pointed out in another thread - that it could get confusing with different F-Keys, work zones etc.

Then David VDP recommended I look at X-Keys:
X-Keys Jog & Shuttle Editor - XPS-08-USB
http://www.ymouse.com/xkeys/xkedit.php

Is anyone here using this model?

I've always been a fan of those old IBM keyboards with buckling spring keypads. Built like a tank!
http://store.yahoo.com/pckeyboards/122keyterkey.html

Btw, this 122 key model became the basis for the Fairlight MFX series keyboard controller.
[ scroll down to the pic pof the MFX3 ]
http://www.anerd.com/fairlight/fairlightstory.htm

There might be some people here who have used Fairlight in audio post so you know how fast it is and how easy it is to use their controller. What Bob has done in adapting similar navigation ideas with the humble PC is quite amazing, even though it is like learning to type in a whole new language! :)

Have there been any thoughts about a SAW Keyboard Controller?

Regards,

Andre

[Bob L]

X-Keys is a great solution for those that are macro command fans.

It is easy to program and worked very well the few times I tried it out.

For me... I found it just as easy to work completey with the mouse and native commands though, so I never really got hooked on needing anything more.

Bob L

[Tree Leopard]

Great - I'll see if anyone has the X-keys in stock here.


For me... I found it just as easy to work completey with the mouse and native commands though, so I never really got hooked on needing anything more.
For sure! Watching you work in those videos is just insane! :eek: Could I ever get that fast? :)

Something I've realized is that people who do a lot coding type VERY fast so rapid sequences of key commands are almost second nature. But for your regular Tree Leopard it does take a little longer to get the flow happening. You know, big paws and all...

I'm not a fan of the mouse at all so I'm looking for alternatives. For example, I have my mouse pad sloping down on a ramp so my wrist stays straight, so it doesn't affect my guitar playing so much. But then again, what you have done with so many of the mouse commands works so well, especially all those drag-style moves.

Is there a particular brand/model of mouse that you'd recommend (for big paws)? Or - for something different - even an Atari-style joy stick that you can use as a mouse?

Andre

[Bob L]

I recommend a straight simple wheel mouse with nothing fancy going on.

I've seen many people get things all complicated with their fancy trackballs and wireless mice and extended keyboards and all kinds of background macro programs and fancy mouse and keyboard hook apps... keep it simple and simply learn the interface and you will work faster than the rest.

Bob L

[MMP]

And from the other side of the aisle....

While I have the highest respect for my esteemed colleague from Nevada,
I love my x-keys! I have commands such as mark entire region including leading & trailing softedges, or select all regions to end of track on single keys. I find it easier to always have one hand on the x-keys and the other on my trackball, and could never quite get one hand to perform many key combinations I use all the time.

The only trackball I use is the Logitech Marble Mouse model with four buttons. I have the two smaller buttons programmed as cruise up and down, so they function the same as a mouse wheel for zooming and channel changes in SAW. I had serious carpel problems when using a mouse which have completely gone away using this trackball. I love endless scrolling in the MT view without having to pick up a mouse, and I seriously wouldn't ever consider a mouse again under ANY circumstances.


MM

[Tree Leopard]

I had serious carpel problems when using a mouse which have completely gone away using this trackball. I love endless scrolling in the MT view without having to pick up a mouse, and I seriously wouldn't ever consider a mouse again under ANY circumstances.
Michael - the last thing I want is carpel problems and extra stress on the muscles around the shoulders. Thanks so much for the tip on the trackball & X-Keys combo.

I was experimenting with keyboard commands and I came up with this, just to get a feel for alternative proceedures... (I'm not sure what Bob will think about this - hehe)

Direct Dialing Floating Windows (work zones) In Any Given F-Key:

Alt + any letter = gets you back to MT view (default) or last work zone you touched with your mouse.

Alt = gets you to "File" on the top menu bar
Alt, V - gets you to the View menu

Alt, V, F = Full Multitrack View
Alt, V, M = Mixer
Alt, V, L = Library
Alt, V, A = Automation Gallery
Alt, V, R = Regions
Alt, V, S = Soundfile
Alt, V, C = Control Track
Alt, V, X, C = FX Choices
... etc

Here's what I worked out for creating multiple [Q] points on the Control Track -

Starting in MT view - (NB: a letter in brackets [X] refers to SAW commands)

[Q], [N] (...name or number ) Enter and Enter again
Press Space to play and use the arrow keys to jump between [Q] points.

Alt, V, M = gets you back to MT view.
Alt, V, C = back to the Control Track
...etc

You can do all that in seconds flat - and you have'nt moved from the keyboard! :D

This is one of the things I love about this software is that you have room to play with different approaches - making up F-Key variations, trying different mouse and key combinations etc.

Andre Teclado Jr.

Tree Leopard Experimental Keyboard Workshop

"Get Your Paws On SAW"
******************

[JoergReiher]

@MMP:
Great idea, now I can scroll up and down without a wheel:-)
But how do you zoom in/out this way?
I assigned "cursor up/down" to the little buttons (labeled 4/5 in the logitech software). That only gives me hottrack changing!

I must miss something here:-(
Thanks in advance,
joey

[Tim Miskimon]

And from the other side of the aisle....

While I have the highest respect for my esteemed colleague from Nevada,
I love my x-keys! I have commands such as mark entire region including leading & trailing softedges, or select all regions to end of track on single keys. I find it easier to always have one hand on the x-keys and the other on my trackball, and could never quite get one hand to perform many key combinations I use all the time.

The only trackball I use is the Logitech Marble Mouse model with four buttons. I have the two smaller buttons programmed as cruise up and down, so they function the same as a mouse wheel for zooming and channel changes in SAW. I had serious carpel problems when using a mouse which have completely gone away using this trackball. I love endless scrolling in the MT view without having to pick up a mouse, and I seriously wouldn't ever consider a mouse again under ANY circumstances.


MM

I love my Logitech track ball - the original one that I can no longer find. I got tired of chasing my mouse around the pad.... :eek:

[UpTilDawn]

Originally posted by Joey:
...now I can scroll up and down without a wheel.....
But how do you zoom in/out this way?
I assigned "cursor up/down" to the little buttons (labeled 4/5 in the logitech software). That only gives me hottrack changing!

The alt/scroll defeats the default direction of the scroll wheel on a trackball and shifts the function to the alternative. Would that be the same on a four button as well?

Gotta say that I love the Logitech cordless trackball... No more chasing the mouse. No more cord knocking things off my desk. No more mousepad. No hassles :) ...except on a ps/2 kvm switch that forces generic two-button mouse drivers. :eek: :mad: :(

Don't know how my picking hand would survive otherwise.
DanT

[JoergReiher]

Thanks,
a little thinking helps sometimes:-)

I assigned the "universal scroll" to one of the little buttons, so the trackball acts just like the mousewheel if the assigned button is pressed...

I tried "universal scroll" before on pressing both big buttons at once, but that made problems with some of the SAW functions like copying selections, where the right button must be clicked while the left button is held down...

Good to have talked about it:-), so my brain started to think about it again... I knew there must be a use for these little buttons!
Cool, thank you!

[MMP]

Mine is set to cruise up & cruise down.
In Studio under Multitrack Mousewheel, I selected Zoom In/Out. This makes the track increment the ALT version.

MM

[SoundSuite]

Andre,

Be careful about 'stomping' on alt and shift key commands...
...they are very powerful switches in SAW's interface.

Ultimately, the best way to work is the way you are most comfortable.
However, I'd hate to see you ignoring the built-in SAW Alt /Shift switches to use for views (which you can use the F-Keys for)

...maybe I misunderstood your post, it is early ;)

[Bob L]

Don't ignore the idea of the Right-Hold drag to scroll back and forth on the timeline and to also increment and decrement tracks... very handy tool... and it is still active while you are in an Alt-Click copy operation.

Press and hold the right mouse button... then when you get the four way arrow cursor push up or down to lock into track mode or push left or right to float the timeline and scroll.

Bob L

[Naturally Digital]

And from the other side of the aisle....

While I have the highest respect for my esteemed colleague from Nevada,
I love my x-keys! I have commands such as mark entire region including leading & trailing softedges, or select all regions to end of track on single keys. I find it easier to always have one hand on the x-keys and the other on my trackball, and could never quite get one hand to perform many key combinations I use all the time.

The only trackball I use is the Logitech Marble Mouse model with four buttons. I have the two smaller buttons programmed as cruise up and down, so they function the same as a mouse wheel for zooming and channel changes in SAW. I had serious carpel problems when using a mouse which have completely gone away using this trackball. I love endless scrolling in the MT view without having to pick up a mouse, and I seriously wouldn't ever consider a mouse again under ANY circumstances.


MM
Timely thread for me. Personally, I'm having all kinds of trouble with sore/cramping wrist and things don't seem to be getting any better. The mouse concept simply isn't working for me at all. I've been using computers for years and I've recently been using a trackball (kensington expert mouse pro) for the DAW.

FWIW, I think a huge issue for me has been in resting my arms on the desk and keeping the mouse/keyboard too far away. I think keeping these things near the front edge of the desk is better.

I've started to investigate alternative computer interfaces but haven't come up with anything definitive yet. I'm making an effort to use the keyboard (in Windows and in SAWStudio) as much as possible.

I've been curious to know if the menu shortcuts consume resources since they aren't implemented for all menu commands in SAWStudio.

[Jon Marshall Smith]

Hello All,

I bought an X-Keys box a while back based on some testimonials, and I've found it... sort of useful. However, I had to write a utility to achieve said usefulness in SAW-world, in order to allow the X-Keys to emulate mouse clicks in various windows. After the dust of the X-Keys purchase settled I found I only used it for a few things.... I have a row of keys set up to alter a region's varispeed from -0.5 cents to 0.5 cents (in 0.1 cent increments) which allows for very quick pitch fixes. I also have the various "Save/Load Channel Strip Settings" on individual keys. Oh yes, and "Open Soundfile and Add..." is on a key, also.

It's a cool toy, though personally I doubt I would buy one again were mine to spontaneously combust. If you're playing with one, however, you might enjoy the utility I through together, available at:

http://www.jms-audioware.com/xkeys.htm

Cheers!

-Jon Marshall Smith
-stuff for SAW at http://www.jms-audioware.com

[ambler]

For those who are using the 'X-Keys Jog & Shuttle Editor - XPS-08-USB' that Tree Leopard linked to in his first post. What is the Jog and Shuttle wheel used for in SawStudio?

Mark

[Tree Leopard]

Be careful about 'stomping' on alt and shift key commands...
...they are very powerful switches in SAW's interface.

Ultimately, the best way to work is the way you are most comfortable.
However, I'd hate to see you ignoring the built-in SAW Alt /Shift switches to use for views (which you can use the F-Keys for)
Just a little enthusiastic product testing / experimental learning on the job :) The nice thing is, when you do hit the "wrong" thing the program doesn't crash! First time for everything.

JMS - are you or were you using the X-Keys with the toggle wheel? Does SAW support the wheel for scrolling etc? (Btw, thanks for your delay compensator! 8960 samples less for the better.)

Re: Interfaces - I have the same concern as David here - I really think its about time that after about 20 years + of PCs being available to John & Jill Citizen that some real work on a broad scale was done to make the PC interface actually function IN DIRECT RELATION to the natural "flow" of the muscular / skeletal movement patterns of our arms, wrists and fingers. It might take a Buckmaster Fuller kind of lateral thinker to do it, but I can't wait.

I just pray that the mouse will be history soon! Or as Sun Ra would have said - "his story". It WAS an extremely clever solution - in the beginning. But talk with any experienced physiotherapist about what this "deadly" device alone can do to your body or look at the astounding number of workers comp claims the world over for "computer related workplace injuries", then its truly insane.

Returning back to audio and the Fairlight MFX controller. The navigation was always so easy, fast and direct - jumping to any track, any section of a project instantly, most of it one or two button functions. Many of you guys have used the similar RADAR contoller. Its so nice to use, eh?

This is why I asked about any plans for a SAW Controller. This DAW could be foookin AMAZING with a dedicated keyboard contoller. Keys, macros and a toggle wheel all in the one package - and presto - no mouse! I'm sure that most of the Alt-Drag functions could translate beautifully over to key-modified toggle functions. Put it this way, if I had access to the captital I'd risk R&D on it.

Anyway, thats my rant! :)

Andre

[Jon Marshall Smith]

JMS - are you or were you using the X-Keys with the toggle wheel? Does SAW support the wheel for scrolling etc? (Btw, thanks for your delay compensator! 8960 samples less for the better.)
Negative, my X-Keys has no wheels whatsoever, just 60 keys (i counted). Seems like you could tie it to the mousewheel easy enough..... dunno.. I'd be interested in seeing what exactly it sends out... could be mapped to the timeline, too, which I guess would make the most sense. Wanna send me one and I'll code it? :)


I just pray that the mouse will be history soon! Or as Sun Ra would have said - "his story". It WAS an extremely clever solution - in the beginning. But talk with any experienced physiotherapist about what this "deadly" device alone can do to your body or look at the astounding number of workers comp claims the world over for "computer related workplace injuries", then its truly insane.
Amen! SAW used to be less mouse-reliant, too, and more keyboard-centric. It's not a shift I liked seeing. I've always thought SAW should add a mapping layer between controls and functions (the 'keymap' file is a staple in open-source world)... then everyone who wants to can set up the controls as they prefer. More than likely, a few good mappings will rise to the surface from the community... and someone else has done the hard part on the UI! Sorry for the software rant... been coding, new release very soon!

-Jon Marshall Smith
-stuff for SAW at http://www.jms-audioware.come

[Mountain Media]

... been coding, new release very soon!

-Jon Marshall Smith
-stuff for SAW at http://www.jms-audioware.come (http://www.jms-audioware.come/)Of what?? Now, you got my interest!! :)

[RobertV]

If human beings were meant to operate a mouse and keyboard simultaniously they certainly would have evolved with three hands, because I (still) only have two hands, I have to alternate between keyboard and mouse (or trackball in my case). The advantage of using a gadget like the X-keys keyboard is that one can assign each key to a function in such a way that one hand can operate it all! (left hand for trackball - right hand for x-keys)

To me this is the greatest advantage of the X-keys. The fact that you can group functions in a logical layout makes it all the more functional.
My X-keys (20 key version unfotunately) does not have the scroll wheel,
to find out download the manual for the scroll wheel version and find out what the jog / scroll wheel does, (from memory it is repetitive button pushes) to me that's what the mouse / trackball is perfect for!

my 5c

Robert V. ;)

[Pedro Itriago]

Thanks for that Robert, I was begining to worry about this bulge that's coming from the center of my cheast, right below the neck. Not easy to be working on Springfield's nuc plant, duh?!


If human beings were meant to operate a mouse and keyboard simultaniously they certainly would have evolved with three hands,

[Jon Marshall Smith]

Of what?? Now, you got my interest!! :)
It's called the Batch File Generator... conceptually similar to CSG, but a lot more powerful... Generated files are in no way linked to the timeline (they can overlap, etc) and can be many formats (well, 8/16/24 bit waves and aiffs, 32bit float wavs, mp3s and ogg). WPD files are generated for waves.

It's a tool I've wanted for a while for my own work... not really sure if there's a market, but we'll see! I've been using it to automate the creation of samples from a multitrack drum recording, real good for that sort of thing... change the mix and rebuild all 20 samples at one. Good for any time you need to build a bunch of files in a... well, a batch! It's working pretty well, I may release before leaving on a mini-tour next Tuesday.

-Jon Marshall Smith
-stuff for SAW at http://www.jms-audioware.com

[Veit Kenner]

It's called the Batch File Generator...

It's a tool I've wanted for a while for my own work...
Hi Jon,

this is really good news :-) I was always intrigued by the idea to use CSG as a batch utility and in some ways I use it occasionally. I'm looking very much forward to BFG.

Cheers,

Veit

[TotalSonic]

Yeah - a Batch File Generator - especially if it supports exporting AIFF - would definitely get some cash from me!

Jon -
Nice to "see" you here btw - and great to hear you're still developing more cool stuff for SAW. Have fun on the road!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Tree Leopard]

Jon - great news on the BFG!

* If its Ok with you, maybe start a new thread for the BFG - otherwise this one could end up radically OT :)

Meanwhile back at the ranch...

Well, if there is someone on your side of the planet with the box, by all means play with it and maybe post an X-Keys Redux plug. :)

I have no idea what Bob would think about a mapping layer but my guess is that since he's put years of work into AVOIDING the 40 million calls per minute the Win OS makes then he might not be so enthused... the beauty of SAW is how it works at machine level so I guess it must take ages to de-bug after introducing any new elements.

Robert V - thanks for your feedback on the X-keys. What kind of track ball are you using? I've kept away from them since a number of friends had found they that work brilliantly for some audio apps and not so well for others.

Andre

[RobertV]

Robert V - thanks for your feedback on the X-keys. What kind of track ball are you using? I've kept away from them since a number of friends had found they that work brilliantly for some audio apps and not so well for others.

Andre
Andre
It's the Expert Mouse® Pro Trackball , I modified it by connection two separate buttons via a metre long cable for the left and right mouse buttons as I had trouble dragging (pressing a button while moving the ball accurately ) which you do everytime you adjust a knob or fader. moving the buton to a right hand operation made it much more natural to me, if you get the USB X-keys, you can assign keys to mouse buttons in software (not possible with the old version).

Cheers.....Robert V.