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AlanH
06-21-2004, 02:25 PM
Hi All,

I have a mixed stereo file which is almost there, but still needs a little tweaking. Big snag - I've lost the EDL. But as I still have the session multitrack sound files, all I have to do is recreate the mix and compare it.

Here's the problem. Although I can easily place my mixed "reference" file on the multitrack in sync with the session files, I can't do a single-key or single-click switch between listening to the reference file on its own, and listening to the new mix on its own.

It would seem obvious to use an intermediate output, but SAWStudio doesn't want to let me route through more than one output in series before a "real" output, in other words no sub-sub groups: every time I try this I get an error message about assigning signals to "invalid outputs".

OK I know this is a problem of my own making, but I suspect others may have been there too, so does anyone have a suggestion for a way forward?

Thanks!

Pedro Itriago
06-21-2004, 02:40 PM
Why don't use the mute button on the track that you placed the mix wav file to hear the new mix and then the solo button on the mix wave file the hear mute the whole new mix?

Or, you can watch the new levelizer video and see how Bob A/B's between two mixes.

To sumarize, create a new mix file soloing the track with the previous mix and call it aaaaa; then create a new mix muting the old wave using the same aaaaa filename but instead of overwriting the file, append it. Open the aaaaa file in the soundfile view, that way you'll have the old and the new mix in the same file (aaaaa) and you'll be able to click anywhere between old and new and have fun comparing

Seancom
06-21-2004, 03:19 PM
Alan,

You could also put your mixed sound file on another layer of the multi-track and easily A-B compare by switching between layers 1 and 2 during live playback.

It's the easiest way I have found to compare between mixes.

Eric

Yura
06-21-2004, 03:36 PM
Hi All,
SAWStudio doesn't want to let me route through more than one output in series before a "real" output, in other words no sub-sub groups: every time I try this I get an error message about assigning signals to "invalid outputs".
Thanks!

Realy? the SAW's pathing structure can do all of kind...
why can't you do:
direct all tracks of your new set (exept of track with "reference")to aux 2 postfader each track. un-assign each track to no-one out (no-one button of out assnmnts is on).
direct your track where is old mix wav to aux 2. post fader. and un-assign that track too.
assign each of two aux channel to out 1. now you can switch "solo" on the
MT top-right area - and no problem to jumping listening btwn two auxes.

or even more easyer:
assgn your all tracks of new set to out track 1.
assign out track 1 to out dev 01.
then, assign track with your "reference" to out track 2. assign out track 2 to
out dev 01 too!
witch "solo" on the MT top-right area - and jump listening btwn two output tracks live.

AlanH
06-21-2004, 03:55 PM
Boy, you guys are quick!

OK, thanks for the feedback.

Pedro, thanks - have just watched Bob's Levelizer video. That's a great comparison technique for pre-built files, but I'm looking to switch between an active mix session and the reference file, so that I can continue to tweak while switching, and all in sync.

Eric - Had thought of using the layers facility, but the same applies I think - the trick is to toggle mix off and reference on and vice versa with one action. Will give this scheme more thought.

Yura - I think your suggestion may be the answer to my particular problem - using the aux buses and returns instead of output tracks. Will experiment with that tomorrow - it's getting a little late here now.

I'd still be interested in the definitive explanation of why output channels can only be cascaded to one level. Maybe Bob is concerned about cumulative delays or something.

Anyway, many thanks to all! There's certainly a way forward in your responses.

Alan

Yura
06-21-2004, 04:57 PM
I forgot to say,
you even can do it with layers switching miracle. but...
switch them with Ctrl+1, Ctrl+2, instead of 1, 2...
if your new tracks are on first layers of all tracks, put your "reference"
somwhere on the track but on layer #2.
I had not that experience to switch so many layers at once (you have manyof them?), but I guess all'd be OK.

Bob L
06-21-2004, 04:57 PM
There really is no direct way to switch between a full MT mix and a single track mixdown reference without at least two clicks, that I can think of.

You can select all the MT mix tracks in the Full Mixer View and then a simple click on any of those mutes will mute the entire live MT Mix.. then a single click on the mute of the reference file (which was already muted) will allow you to hear that track alone.

Or the same idea with the solo button... all selected channels solo with one button, and you must un-solo the reference track.

If you want everything to happen seamlessly at the same moment, then try using the automation...

Place your reference file on a track... select all channels of the MT mix in the Full Mixer.

Set up Mute switch points down the timeline.... for instance start at the front of the session, in Automation Mode, press the reference Mute switch... then go down the timeline 10 secs or so and press the mute switch again and at the same cursor position press one of the mute switches for the MT mix... it will write in a mute for every seleceted track... do this down the timeline wherever you want to compare, toggling mutes between the MT mix and the reference track... Playback, and sit back and listen to a perfect seamless switching between the MT mix and the Reference mix.

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
06-21-2004, 05:00 PM
I do this often. I am not sure why you cannot do this (I had trouble understanding your post).

I simply send the project to output 1. Set output 1 to ASIO 1+2 of my device.

The reference mix is placed on say track 24/36/72 (whichever your version is), and output to output 2. Output 2 is routed as well to ASIO 1+2.

Then I simply goto the output section, turn on solo hotrack feature. Just use the up and down arrows to change between the 2.

Can you explain why this is not an elegant solution for you? Perhaps I can make addendum to my idea that works better for you.

Bob L
06-21-2004, 07:40 PM
Robert,

When out 2 is routed back to out 1, then when out 1 is soloed, you are still hearing the feed from out 2 because it is part of the out 1 data stream.

With this method, I still believe you have to solo out 1 and mute out 2 to stop the feed thru of the reference mix.

If you route the outs to different devices and monitor them thru an external mixer, then when you solo out 1, out 2 is blocked because it is a unique data stream.

I tried this with my Hammerfal DSP and the TotalMix app of the Hammerfall handles the external mixing of the different devices... then, the hot track solo idea works.

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
06-21-2004, 07:41 PM
I simply route the 2 outputs to the same device and it works fine?

Let me test, perhaps I describe my method wrong....

Bob L
06-21-2004, 07:46 PM
Put a completely different wav file at the bottom of some other session mix... then perhaps it will be easier to hear the playthru of the unwanted material when you solo the first output.

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
06-21-2004, 07:48 PM
My driver software is setup to output a mirror of all outputs to the first 1+2. Therefor when I send something to 3+4 it mirrors to 1+2.

This is why when I send one output to 1+2, and the other to 3+4 (to work as I tried to describe), it comes out the monitor outs.

Whoops :) I forgot I set that up that way. Still an outboard mixer would do the same thing, as do most soundcard drivers...

Bob L
06-21-2004, 07:50 PM
Robert,

That's correct... at least I'm not going crazy over here wondering why it works for you and not for me. :)

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
06-21-2004, 07:54 PM
I think my use of "device" to speak of an entire audio interface, and your usual use of the word "device" to speak of an i/o channel got the confusion started.

AudioAstronomer
06-21-2004, 07:56 PM
I figured while Im at it, I may as well inflate my post count more with drivel. Hehe :)

Yura
06-21-2004, 08:23 PM
Hi!
First, sorry, what for to ignore my "AUX" method of this task. please your arguments.
Second. about the method you talking:
We can use the solo hottrack switch between OUT TRACK #2 and OUT TRACK #3. even if the sound card has one stereo output.
one group of tracks assgn to outtrack#2 and othr group of tracks assgn to outtrack#3. what is wrong? all works.

Bob L
06-21-2004, 10:21 PM
I see now what Yura is saying... and it works well.

If you assign the live MT mix tracks to out 2 and then assign the reference mix track(s) to out 3... both outs being assigned back to out 1, which is what you are monitoring... then the idea of using the HotTrack solo works fine... switch between out 2 and out 3 to get an instant a/b comparison.

Very good... I missed that one.

Bob L

Yura
06-21-2004, 10:45 PM
Thanks for attention.
...and aux metod too. and multiple layers switching...
seems Alan will be glad a lot!
and time was not useless for us too.

Naturally Digital
06-23-2004, 10:06 PM
So what about routing the live mix to output 2, the reference track to output 3, routing these both to output 1 and then using live solo mode to switch between out 2/out3.

Haven't tried this but that would be my first approach.
Dave.

AlanH
06-25-2004, 12:20 PM
OK, thanks for putting so much thought into this.

To summarise:

a) If I'm using a 'basic' mix arrangement, assigning every track of the mix straight to the main output channel (OUT 1), I have the option of redirecting these tracks through OUT 2 (as a 'virtual' output channel), and routing that to the 'real' OUT 1. Sending my reference track to OUT 3 (also configured as a virtual output), and also routing this to OUT 1. Then, as Dave Vanderploeg observes, toggling hot track solo between OUT 2 and OUT 3 does the job.

b) However, I tend to use the virtual output channels as subgroups, first balancing multiple pickups or instruments into a composite, and then using that as a single source in the final mix. In this case, to achieve the results in (a), I would have to cascade virtual output channels, and this, as far as I can tell, is not possible.

c) The most practical solution for me is that described by AudioAstronomer, i.e. to assign the reference track and the main mix to separate stereo outs of a multi-output sound card (i.e. OUT 1 and OUT 2, both as 'real' outputs). Then it's a simple matter of switching between these two separate hardware outputs in an external mixer or whatever virtual routing/monitoring utility comes with the card. I shall do this with my MOTU 2408 in the future.

d) When limited to using a card with a single stereo output (e.g. working on a notebook PC in the field), we're back to a 2-click solution, as Bob notes. However, I guess this is not a real problem in practice, as I'm unlikely to attempt such a subtle comparison exercise under field conditions.

Many thanks again to all contributors!

Yura
06-25-2004, 06:58 PM
OK, thanks for putting so much thought into this.

To summarise:

do you have too complex mix of layers in your session?

AlanH
06-27-2004, 03:54 PM
My session is pretty simple, as it is from a live recording with no overdubs, so I don't need to use layers.

I have attached a picture to show the setup, which does the job.

Yura
06-27-2004, 05:00 PM
It's Exeellent!!!
we should all introduce our thoughts with schemes!... for time saving.

so, what I' trying to explain as alternative method without help of another output. just bring the reference wav to thack #1 on layer#2 (or to another track). And play the game: Ctrl+1, Ctrl+2, Ctrl+1, Ctrl+2, check it out. how does it fill?

AlanH
06-28-2004, 02:19 PM
Aha!! Now I understand! I had never used Ctrl+1 etc. as global layer switch.

I need to put a blank region at the end of each empty layer to make the switch happens on all tracks.

Don't understand why Ctrl+n does not switch the output channel layer during playback. Maybe it's a driver issue.

This is a brilliant idea! Many thanks, Yura!

AudioAstronomer
06-28-2004, 02:33 PM
OOOooooOOOOooooo

very neat

Yura
06-28-2004, 02:34 PM
I need to put a blank region at the end of each empty layer to make the switch happens on all tracks.

Don't understand why Ctrl+n does not switch the output channel layer during playback. Maybe it's a driver issue.

This is a brilliant idea! Many thanks, Yura!

?? ??!
you cannot get on this way in playback mode???
but I brought this idea for a rialtime purpose...
you shure?
what is the soundcard?

AlanH
06-29-2004, 12:30 PM
you cannot get on this way in playback mode???
I have re-checked this, and still believe it to be correct.

- If I use Ctrl+1, Ctrl+2 when playback is stopped, all I and O tracks switch from Layer 1 to 2.
- If I do the same during playback, only I tracks switch layers. The O track stays where it was.

I am using MOTU PCI324 + 2408. This behaviour is the same with ASIO and "24-bit WDM Compatible MultiMedia" driver models. It is also the same with my Soundblaster card.

The good news is that if I send the reference track to another "real" output (as my diagram), your switching technique gives me what I was looking for, without needing to switch at the external mixer.

Yura
06-29-2004, 02:33 PM
Alan,
I've missed a little the fact that out track's layars have to switched too!
(SAW never ends to surprising!)
But, tell me, how it may act on the entire signal routing?!
The layers on out & return tracks are designed only for changing the automated data on them, if one exists.
and I'm sorry, I cannot understand why you pay attention on those layers
of Out tracks??? they are not to switching during playback? but what for???
They should not! BTW it is not the driver issue as you thought about. It is designed so.

so when I planed the "layers" tweek to your task, I bore in my mind to
setup ALL finished signal routings only to one output#1. and you can
then switch btween layers during playback. That' all.
what's the problem with that?

See you.

Bob L
06-29-2004, 05:33 PM
Layer switching during playback is dependent on the new layer having some active data... either region or automation data.

If the layer is blank, live playback will not switch because of missing pointers that will crash the engine.

So, if you want to force a layer to live switch, simply write a fader zero db at the start of the track layer... the sound won't change, but the layer now qualifies for live switching.

Out layers do not switch during playback at this time.

Bob L

AlanH
07-01-2004, 02:21 PM
Bob - Thanks for the tip on using "dummy" automation - saves putting in blank regions. Also for clarifying Output channel layer switching behaviour.

Yura - I may have graphic EQ and Levelizer patched into the output channel to act on the whole mix. As I do not want my reference track to be EQ'd or Levelized, I put an automation event at the start of Layer 2 of the Output track setting EQ and Levelizer to OFF or BYPASS (as per Bob's suggestion). This works fine.

Yura
07-01-2004, 08:13 PM
As I do not want my reference track to be EQ'd or Levelized, I put an automation event at the start of Layer 2 of the Output track setting EQ and Levelizer to OFF or BYPASS (as per Bob's suggestion). This works fine.
Oh, now it's all clear now!