Scenes and Group Latch Bug

[Craig Allen]

I've got a Group Latch with several channels assigned to it. I made a scene to activate the mute on the Group Latch Fader. When triggered by the scene, the mute on the Group Latch Fader dues not activate the mutes on the channels assigned to it. Just hitting the mute button on the Group Latch Fader with the mouse causes the channels assigned to it to mute like it should. Is this by design for some reason or is it a bug?

[airickess]

In the Scene Properties make sure you've chosen the correct Mixer and also the Mute on the Output section. That should be all you need to choose.

[Craig Allen]

The scene is set up properly. The Group Latch Fader mute activates, it just doesn't trigger the mutes on the channels assigned to it. Mutes for channels and outputs are selected. Have you tried to recreate?

[TomyN]

Hi,

I checked and can confirm this behaviour. Also the faders do not move during recall. Even having good arguments for both ways, I like the current behavior best, because otherwise a scene could change channels which you did not select for the scene.

Tomy

[jlklein]

I get around this by adding channel mutes to the parameters saved. The Group Latch still mutes/unmutes with scene changes, but so do the channels. You may say, then why use the Group Latch Mute at all? Well, it does give an immediate indication at a glance that all the channels in that Latch Group are muted.

Hope this helps,
Jeff

[Craig Allen]

Yeah, I can make it work by muting everything with the scene. It just makes it easier if I ever change which channels are on that latch group - I don't have to update the scene, just change assignments. I couldn't ever see a situation where you'd want the group latch faders to act differently with scenes than they normally do.

[jlklein]

It just makes it easier if I ever change which channels are on that latch group - I don't have to update the scene, just change assignments.

Ah, good point.

Jeff

[Brent Evans]

There was another thread about this a while ago, and Bob confirmed that this is working as designed. You must select channel mutes option for the mutes to carry through the scene.

I agree that it's counter-intuitive, but it's not a "bug," just a design idiosyncrasy.

[Craig Allen]

I did select channel mutes and they did not carry through. The only way I could get it to work was to actually mute the channels which pretty much defeats the purpose of having a scene with a group latch fader.

[RBIngraham]

I did select channel mutes and they did not carry through. The only way I could get it to work was to actually mute the channels which pretty much defeats the purpose of having a scene with a group latch fader.

Well I would agree that it's unintuitive and defeats the purpose. But it doesn't surprise me. I found this out when I tried to write scenes that would set a level on a Group Latch fader. I would expect that if I automated the Group Latch fader, the inputs assigned to it would move accordingly. But no... they don't. So it doesn't surprise me that the Mutes also work this way.

For whatever reason there is something askew in what I would call the hierarchy (even though I'm sure that's not correct programming lingo). So the scenes must operate on just the channels themselves and know nothing about how any linkages between channels are set up.

[TomyN]

Well, I'd not expect that a recall will effect channels which I did not select for recall/save.

Tomy

[Craig Allen]

Well I would agree that it's unintuitive and defeats the purpose. But it doesn't surprise me. I found this out when I tried to write scenes that would set a level on a Group Latch fader. I would expect that if I automated the Group Latch fader, the inputs assigned to it would move accordingly. But no... they don't. So it doesn't surprise me that the Mutes also work this way.

For whatever reason there is something askew in what I would call the hierarchy (even though I'm sure that's not correct programming lingo). So the scenes must operate on just the channels themselves and know nothing about how any linkages between channels are set up.
Hey, we agree! That's something! I was (initially) surprised, but now not so much. I guess that's just the way it is...

[Craig Allen]

Well, I'd not expect that a recall will effect channels which I did not select for recall/save.

Tomy

Exactly, except if you recall call a Group Latch Channel whose purpose is to control other channels.

[TomyN]

Well, in my experience there is always a trade-off with linking channels, or some 'unintuitive' handling.

I like that in SAC I can activate a channel with it's mute button independent from the state of the controlling group mute state. In SAC this does not affect the state of the mute-button of the group fader.
I'd been running in some troubles with other desks where you need to unmute the channel and the DCA to get a channel 'on Air'.

So I think that there is no black and white, but different approaches. And I must admit I like the approach of SAC.

Tomy

[RBIngraham]

Well this just shows how much SAC's Group Lathes are not really a replacement for a DCA. Yes, with a DCA you have to unmute the DCA in order for the channel to be on. But you can independently mute a channel assigned to a DCA if you like.

Different strokes for different folks I guess, but when almost all other consoles work a certain way and this paticular product does not, I put that into the unintuitive camp, because the majority of engineers are going to expect it to work a certain way and it does not.

To me a scene recall should work in an identical manner to what would happen with a mouse click or with a MIDI control surface, at the very least, even if that is not how other consoles work. And in this case SAC doesn't do that either. So it's being both unintuitive and inconsistent as well.

This also means that there is no way to set up a Mute Group you can recall with a scene either.

But hey, at least we can have a scene with a fade time with faders on the BCF surface and the BCF doesn't freak out... which I am very happy about. :)

[Craig Allen]

To me a scene recall should work in an identical manner to what would happen with a mouse click or with a MIDI control surface, at the very least, even if that is not how other consoles work. And in this case SAC doesn't do that either. So it's being both unintuitive and inconsistent as well.

Exactly my point, thanks!