Live sound w/Saw

[Leadfoot]

Thinking about getting into this. I think the future of live sound is eventually going to be virtual. Really like the idea of eliminating all that outboard gear. Being able to have gates wherever I need them, fx, all that just sounds very enticing.
My question is, in a live situation, with the PA cranking, if/when things start to get away from me, I can just grab a fader or an aux send(monitors) and tame it down. How are you guys handling that situation in software? Also, what are some of the dangers of doing things live with software? Like what are a few of the really big things you have to be careful NOT to do or accidentally do. I'd like to know that I can safely do live sound without somehow blowing up my speakers or everything going down, or killing people with feedback.. all that kinda stuff. Also ofcourse is latency a problem?
Buck, Frank.. anyone?

Thanks,
Tony

[ffarrell]

Also, what are some of the dangers of doing things live with software? Like what are a few of the really big things you have to be careful NOT to do or accidentally do.
TonyI had a opening act drummer unplug the whole PA while the show was going. That was bad,,,,OK
This was not software so things can happen at any time. I run 2 systems at once for playback and I would do the same for LIVE.

It's said for outdoor shows " If you cover your gear it won't rain "



If you are going to do one off's with bands I would not try this. If you have a band, and / or your the house guy I think you could set it up to work for you.

You could do 24 inputs x 6 stereo monitor mixes and a house mix.
For the above you could get 3 Behinger for your input mic pre's and for the outputs I would use real EQ 's for monitor mixes so you could grab the 2K or 4K quicky that's feeding back. as far as the safty to the mains, I would patch a brick wall limiter before the amps so know prob.

When I setup a mix I use the VCA or DVA in a master roll less the main vocal person that way if I run out of headroom I can "downmix". you could do this with Studio and give yourself 8 or 10 fader to mix from.

Sorry for my rambleing hope this helps
fvf

[Craig Allen]

Using SAW is a lot like using traditional gear, without the gear. With feedback, EQ and gates are your friends. I use the Frequency Analyzer in conjunction with JMS' Hi Res EQ for feedback suppression, as well as 2 Behringer Feedback Destroyers in auto mode - 1 for mains and 1 for monitors. That has taken care of most feedback problems silently. The Behringer BCF2000 (or other control surface) is also needed IMHO. I just want to be able to grab a fader quickly while I'm playing, especially in the case of feedback. I try to be easy on the effects, to make sure I've got plenty of CPU free to keep the latency low. I generally use channel comps, gates, and EQ, Studio Freeverb and Studio Delay on Auxes, and JMS Hi Res EQ's, Frequency Analyzers, and Levelizers (NOT set to Limit - that doesn't work in Live Mode without latency) on outputs and mix 13 channels with 2 monitor mixes - that's it. Latency shouldn't be a big issue for you if you're using good hardware (I think you're on RME IIRC). Here's a (messy) pic of my rig:

http://www.buckshamus.com/images/echo1-4.jpg

My biggest piece of advice is to play with it a while before you take it out. Get to know live mode well.

[Leadfoot]

Excellent.. I know we've been over this before, so thanks for taking the time to respond again. I'm gonna drag all the gear in the basement and go at it.
If this all comes together, my next move would be to get a laptop and some type of interface for that. This is going to be fun. I don't know why I haven't done this sooner, but I definitely want to try it before I go out and buy a bunch more outboard gates and stuff.

Thanx again,
Tony

[Craig Allen]

The RME Multifaces and Digifaces are going pretty cheap on eBay right now as everyone upgrades to the Fireface. And the Fireface is a good choice, too. You might want to look into Frank's PCMCIA card for the Digiface he's selling now if you have the funds available.

[ffarrell]

The RME Multifaces and Digifaces are going pretty cheap on eBay right now as everyone upgrades to the Fireface. And the Fireface is a good choice, too. You might want to look into Frank's PCMCIA card for the Digiface he's selling now if you have the funds available.
What he said but, you would still need to buy the interface box.

best of luck
fvf

[Leadfoot]

Do you guys know if the firewire interface is stable and reliable enough to do serious live sound and can it be used with the ada8000's?

Tony

[Pedro Itriago]

Do you guys know if the firewire interface is stable and reliable enough to do serious live sound and can it be used with the ada8000's?

Tony

Again, why is there nobody considering external SATA drives?

[Craig Allen]

Do you guys know if the firewire interface is stable and reliable enough to do serious live sound and can it be used with the ada8000's?

Tony
I would imagine it is, but can't say for sure. Frank is going to be a good guinea pig :D . Just make sure whatever laptop you choose has good Firewire ports. And the ADAT ports should work fine with the ADA8000's.


Again, why is there nobody considering external SATA drives?
I don't think Tony is actually going to be recording everything, just doing FOH with SAW like I am.

[UpTilDawn]

Sorry for my rambleing hope this helps
fvf

Frank, ramble on, please!.... you too Craig!

This is all very fascinating and an exciting opportunity to learn key components of the Live Mode process.

Personally, I'm stumped with Live at this point. Things haven't worked so well, but I've only tried it once in a real situation.... The need doesn't come up very often for me. I'm all for getting this system down though and your advice and real life perspective REALLY, REALLY help!

Thanks,
DanT

[snapper]

Ive been using Saw for several weeks now as a pa and multitrack. I use the fireface and have been using it at 2x64 without any problems. Ive gone to 3x64 for a little margin but latency hasnt been an issue. This is with 12 tracks live and recording at the same time. I use an ada8000 for extra pre's and use a hardware eq on monitors. So my whole live rig is, two amps, furman power, ada8000, fireface, harddrive( the lacie drive has a cool rack mount kit) and a 2x31 graphic eq, and a laptop. So 10 rack spaces, the laptop, and speakers of course. I'm going to expand this a bit to provide some breathing room between gear. My fireface is having some problems and I think it is heat related. It shares a rack with the power supply, ada8000, and the hard drive. After about two hours I begin to get noise in the right channel and it will start to fade. We unplugged everything from the fireface so the only connections were fireface-amp-speakers. The noise remained. I shut down the fireface and then powered back up and the noise remained. I then shut it down for an hour and powered up and the noise was gone. Then I let it run for a few hours and it came back. So I think my fireface has a problem. I'm going to try and remove it from the rack and see if the problem returns. Other than that it sounds great and is so clean and quiet.

Mike.

[tomasino]

Excellent!
Just yesterday I said to myself "self, I'd really like to see a picture of a Live mode setup". N' there it is!!

Thanks man.

[tomasino]

Again, why is there nobody considering external SATA drives?
'Cuz that's why we have you Pedro! :D
I'm just bein' a wise as:eek:.

Did you say you were using them?
Howz it going?

[Craig Allen]

Excellent!
Just yesterday I said to myself "self, I'd really like to see a picture of a Live mode setup". N' there it is!!

Thanks man.
And a messy picture, at that. It's in a mid-size club with a small stage, and that's my little corner of the world there. In the right rack, there's a Rack Rider, 2 Behringer Feedback Destroyers, a Behringer Crossover, and 3 power amps - Crown for subs, Crown for mains, and a Fender for monitors. In the left rack, there's a Rack Rider, SM Pro 8 channel pre-amp, a Behringer ADA8000, a patchbay (all the Multiface outs go to that patchbay making it a lot easier to hook up), a 5 channel headphone amp, and the Multiface and custom ground and Multiface hook up box where I've extended the Multiface PC cable for ease of hook-up. On top of the big rack is my Toshiba laptop and Behringer BCF2000. It works pretty well and we can go from the trailer to soundcheck in about 1 hour.

[ffarrell]

My rig has been a 48 channel input with 6 outs as a test rig. I take a split from the 40 pair snake head and a light pipe for the last 8 as a digital in.

I was running this rig while doing monitors on a Midas H3000 at the same time just to see if Studio would work for 90 min's and it did. 2/64 (2@64)

I wish I could get this to replace our midas but after my recording box went up in smoke ( now replaced mother board) I can see needing 3 computer to cover one's butt.

Just think if I were in St. Kitts doing a one off like I will be on June 26 and my box took a bump. Oh joy, I get to go home early..

I need 8 stereo mixes to do monitors and right now Studios at 7.

I would love to make this work, I've had meeting with Bob about this and he wants to make a SAC but the time it would take could leave SS waiting for updates and face it. It's hard enough to get sales on the recording side now try to get people to fork over 3 or 4 grand for a closed 24 channel system.

1500 - fireface
500 - 2 8ch behringer
2000 - Laptop with power to spare
??? - SAC software



Ramble ramble ....
thanks
fvf

[Craig Allen]

My rig has been a 48 channel input with 6 outs as a test rig. I take a split from the 40 pair snake head and a light pipe for the last 8 as a digital in.You've got a few more channels than me...:eek: What interface(s) are you running for 48 channels? I thought the Fireface was only 28?


I was running this rig while doing monitors on a Midas H3000 at the same time just to see if Studio would work for 90 min's and it did. 2/64So far, I've had it running for 4+ hours at a time. I always get comments about having a laptop in a bar, too.


I wish I could get this to replace our midas but after my recording box went up in smoke ( now replaced mother board) I can see needing 3 computer to cover one's butt.

Just think if I were in St. Kitts doing a one off like I will be on June 26 and my box took a bump. Oh joy, I get to go home early..I keep a Mackie 1604, two 2 channel comps/gate, and an Alesis Quadraverb handy just in case...


I need 8 stereo mixes to do monitors and right now Studios at 7.Not quote sure I follow you here - why are you limited to 7?


I would love to make this work, I've had meeting with Bob about this and he wants to make a SAC but the time it would take could leave SS waiting for updates and face it. It's hard enough to get sales on the recording side now try to get people to fork over 3 or 4 grand for a closed 24 channel system.I'd love to see SAC become a reality, but I wouldn't be able to pay what I did for SAWStudio. Especially while Studio already does it so well. But I would be up for purchasing it at a decent price (I won't define 'decent' at this time however).


Ramble ramble ....Me too...
:rolleyes:

[UpTilDawn]

Hope you don't mind my just sitting back and soaking this all up... Not much to contribute from my end, but VERY interesting reading guys.

Thanks,
danT

[ffarrell]

You've got a few more channels than me...:eek: What interface(s) are you running for 48 channels? I thought the Fireface was only 28?


Not quote sure I follow you here - why are you limited to 7?


:rolleyes:I get my fireface thursday. The system I was testing with has 2 - 9652 in it. So 6-adat in's and 6 adat outs total of 48ch in and out


Limited to 7 Mixes - 6 stereo aux - 1 main stereo. For ear mixes you got ta go stereo.

Everybody in KR band get his own mix. Some act I've worked with not only get their own mix but also their own channel on some inputs.

Like kick channel 1 for drummer, kick channel 2 for singer. Some people might think that is getting spoilded but If A group like U2 wants 6 Channel of kick It's OK by me.


Mine is not to reason why but to mix and amplify.

fvf

[Leadfoot]

Mine is not to reason why but to mix and amplify. fvf
I hate being un~original.. but I might steal that :)

Tony

[UpTilDawn]

Originally Posted by ffarrell:
Mine is not to reason why but to mix and amplify. fvf

:D

[Craig Allen]

Limited to 7 Mixes - 6 stereo aux - 1 main stereo. For ear mixes you got ta go stereo.Couldn't you use the JMS Buss Extender to get 8 more?

[Pedro Itriago]

'Cuz that's why we have you Pedro! :D
I'm just bein' a wise as:eek:.

Did you say you were using them?
Howz it going?

Actually no, that's one of the reasons IU was asking why nobody is using them instead of usb/fw.

A few days ago I was talking with a friend of mine about how nice was using as per my suggestion extenal drives with the desktop but he was making his mind between usb & fw because of the not-so-stable data transfer rates of this protocols, so I suggested him to change to external sata. He was dumbfounded that such thing existed. I think is obviously a better disc i/o than usb/fw and would surely get better track count, specially using laptops

I have no time to do any testing on this with my current trip schedule, so that's why I was asking (actually really wondering) why nobody is using or even considering the possible pluses of using this one over the other two. Maybe there's a mayor flaw on them & that's why nobody is/say is using them

[ffarrell]

Couldn't you use the JMS Buss Extender to get 8 more?
I did not looked at Extender and it might work for one more mix. I guess the CPU overhead be ok with it patched into 48 input Ch. and 1 output ch. Still not as forward as a aux on the strip.

thanks I'l try testing it.
fvf

[Craig Allen]

I did not looked at Extender and it might work for one more mix. I guess the CPU overhead be ok with it patched into 48 input Ch. and 1 output ch. Still not as forward as a aux on the strip.

thanks I'l try testing it.
fvfI played around with it recently when I was considering doing some sort of individual monitor mix matrix using cheap Behringer mixers for everyone and lots of cable. I decided against it because of cost - every mix would have to have it's own power amp, so we'd have to add another amp.

Also, keep in mind it works like the old Aux Send plugin for SAWPro. I believe you have to have the receive module patched to another input track and that track has to be phsically lower than the track with the send module.

[kent]

so that's why I was asking.....why nobody is using or even considering the possible pluses of using this one over the other two. Maybe there's a mayor flaw on them & that's why nobody is/say is using themCurrently, external SATA solution requires intallation of a bracket that provides the external SATA port. Googit and you'll see this on the product pictures.
Kent

[Pedro Itriago]

Thanks Kent. I already know this, as well as there are pci sata controllers that can add 4 ports to your pc, including 1 external & also that there are cardbus sata controllers for laptops, what I want to know is why nobody is using them.

You could even have sata raid arrays on laptops or daisychain drives this way. Yeah, you have to put a bracket on a desktop, but most mobos don't have firewire onboard (or even usb 2.0) and you have to purchase a pci controller, so I don't see a reason why not use it here.

I know that i.e. the fibrechannel drawback is its cost, what are the drawback for sata that prevent people from using/consider them instead of the usb/fw specially on laptops when people want/need high track play/rec count? is it slower? is it the same and the cost plain just don't justify it?

[Bob L]

I don't think I have seen a motherboard in the last year or more that does not have built-in usb... most also have built-in firewire... and besides... if not... its only $49 for either as a pci or PCMCIA board.

Bob L

[Ralph]

Well my 2 cents and no photos, but I can. For the past year or so we been doing this same thing:

My rig is a rackmounted p4 3.2ghz box ASUS P4C800
RME HD9652
2 Behringer AD8000
4 monitor mixes to CS800 and a QSC (thinkRM250?)
through 2 behringer wedgies and 2 old 1976 custom speakers with emminence loaded 15s
Use a Mackie 8 channel stereo small mixer with 2 Yamaha cabs for mains
couple of junk boxes loaded with 15 EVs
2X64 on my settings --- done as much as 16 tracks with 4 monitors and all recorded and just run he mains pretty flat...nobody gives a damn much any.
use all bobs plugs...mostly eq's...a little reverb on he snare
I use a pod and a guitar synth
keyboard player uses Kontakt and B4...left hand bass
drummer...snare, kick, couple cheap oktava overheads...which actually sound nice.....we are going to triggers this weekend on the drums..to add more onto the machine.....all direct into the behringers either at 24/48 or 16/44....and really....16/44 most all of the time

I turn the machine on, open a template....and let it rip....most of the time around 12 tracks.....ALL LIVE MODE...JUST LIKE A REAL PA....and we drink beer and have fun like a bunch of old farts should

I wish I could do the laptop and fireface but really why...the racked box aint that big and got to carry speakers and crap...so at 50.. man that aint gettin it.

Gee what else....oh just came out of the basement....where I just added some more sawstudio recorded(converted to MP3s)...mostly in this live mode setup....20 plus hours of jamband type....instrumental psychobilly mishmash jazz funkengruven, blues.....if you want to hear any of it....it is at www.shoutcast.com under the instrumental genre (bottom of the list...use winamp) under The Buffalos World Wide Radio....usually nobody is listening.....but we have fun doing it....we started the live mode in the basement last jan or february(with Bobs help) and took it live in march.....we played probably 4 gigs this way last year(small town, old farts..quit playing the animal clubs...they dont like this stuff anyway)....but **** it is easy to just enjoy ourselves jammin with this

anyway this comes out of my cablemodem server at the house into shoutcast somehow...last I checked it was up...some of it is pretty raw

and someone else was Ramblin.....say night night Ralph

and our address if it works, cause really I aint real good at the intricate details of some of this server stuff yet..so nobody please send me any viruses......www.thebuffalos.com

Thank you Bob for much happiness in my life.....In Bob We Trust! :D

So the point is, it aint that hard to do if we can do it up in the High Appalachians where the goats look gooder than the women folk! :eek:

[ffarrell]

good stuff Ralph.

thanks for the link
fvf