Recording a choir

[Steve L]

Recently recorded a choir at my girlfriends church. I've recorded many groups, singles, odd things but this was new. Mic list was as follows: Neumann U87 / AKG 414 / CAD E100 / Blue Baby Bottle / (2) Shure SM81 / AT 4040 / Rode NT1a / PZM wireless I wont't go into setup. The problem is with so many open mics the sibalence and breath noise is compounded. I've gone in and tweaked phrases individually on 3 songs and got it sounding pretty good. Any plugins or tips would be greatly appreciated. I just don't want to spend a lot of time doing that for the other 9 songs if there is an easier way.
Steve L.
Mountain View Recording
Richmond, KY

[Sean McCoy]

Recently recorded a choir at my girlfriends church. I've recorded many groups, singles, odd things but this was new. Mic list was as follows: Neumann U87 / AKG 414 / CAD E100 / Blue Baby Bottle / (2) Shure SM81 / AT 4040 / Rode NT1a / PZM wireless I wont't go into setup. The problem is with so many open mics the sibalence and breath noise is compounded. I've gone in and tweaked phrases individually on 3 songs and got it sounding pretty good. Any plugins or tips would be greatly appreciated. I just don't want to spend a lot of time doing that for the other 9 songs if there is an easier way.
Steve L.
Mountain View Recording
Richmond, KY
If you used every one of those mics for this recording, I'd start be seeing how many of those tracks might be mostly or entirely dispensable. Beyond that, de-essers and low-pass filters on every channel will help reduce sibilance and harsh breathing. You might also try any warm, tubey compression or tape emulation plugins you have. Anything to thicken the lows and mids and de-emphasize the sizzly range.

[CurtZHP]

If you used every one of those mics for this recording, I'd start be seeing how many of those tracks might be mostly or entirely dispensable. Beyond that, de-essers and low-pass filters on every channel will help reduce sibilance and harsh breathing. You might also try any warm, tubey compression or tape emulation plugins you have. Anything to thicken the lows and mids and de-emphasize the sizzly range.



This.

Dump as many channels as you can for starters. Actually, going into the setup might help, as it would shed some light on which two mics to start with.

[Steve L]

Thanks for the tips. I did use them all only because the last guy that recorded the choir used 2 mics only, and they weren't that good. I've automated EQ on the main offenders and this seems to work. Again thanks. The Neumann and CAD were on the sopranos, NT1a on the bass, AT4040 and Baby Bottle on the tenors, SM81 and PZM on the piano, Sm81 altos and 414 overhead. Not the best setup but didn't have a lot of setup time.

Steve L.
Mountain View Recording

[sebastiandybing]

If the room sounds good and the choir has a good balance by
them self, then a main AB set (good omnis) should do it.
Or place a spot mic for each groupe just to be able to give the
choir more diffinition if nessesary.

i try to do as little as possible beside even out resonances in the
room if there are any.
But if you have to many S sounds, why not trying a deesser.

Sebastian

[Steve L]

I placed the mics so I could optimize the good singers with the, Bless them, not so good singers. I don't have a de esser plug that I know of but am playing with different options. Again thanks for all the tips.
Steve L.
Mountain View Recording

[Sean McCoy]

I placed the mics so I could optimize the good singers with the, Bless them, not so good singers. I don't have a de esser plug that I know of but am playing with different options. Again thanks for all the tips.
Steve L.
Mountain View Recording
The Levelizer is a fine de-esser, one of the best I've used.

[Dave Labrecque]

The Levelizer is a fine de-esser, one of the best I've used.

Agreed. And on that note... the channel strip compressor in SAW can do this, too.

I find myself wondering if time-aligning the tracks could help. Maybe the problem is more about 'spread out' esses than loud esses? This would stand to reason, perhaps, because I don't see more mics as decreasing the simple 'signal-to-ess' ratio when mixed. But I could see an exacerbation of the ess sounds if the esses are spread out over time because the close mics and the distant mics are getting all 'relativistic' with each other. As it were. In a manner of speaking.

Try moving the distant mic tracks into sync with the close mics. What does that do to the sound? Anything? Nothing?

[Gary Ray]

The only ORTF mics you seem to have are the Shure SM81's. Set them up according to the ORTF requirements, 100 degree spread and seven inches apart from the mic diaphrams (ie); Ten to Twelve feet high, in front of the center of the chorus, mic stand 8 to 17 feet from the center of the chorus.
If the chorus is a semi circle, place the mics at the center of said semi circle; all of this dependent on the size of the chorus.

If there are soloists, they may need separate mics, however, a good set up with musicians, (even vocal), will not need to have additional solo mics because they are excellent musicians and know how to be balanced.

So set up a chorus rehearsal and try the above sweet spots. It should fall in place once you have had a chance to listen to your rehearsal recordings.

For finishing the recording, a Compressor can be used to bring every thing closer. This can be finished in post. Have Fun !!

[Dave Labrecque]

Poor guy is trying to save the existing tracks, and he's being told to re-record. :p

[Gary Ray]

He has a girlfriend............

[Cary B. Cornett]

If all you need to do is capture a choir that performs well and sounds good in the room, the quick way to a good result is usually an ORTF or NOS cardioid pair, sometimes with wide-spaced omni "outriggers" to bring in the ends of you can't get the main pair far enough out front of the choir.

If you have to fight the choir to create the performance, you move in close with multiple mics. and for that, two mics per section is not unusual.

You mention problems with sibilance. Of you have a few "hissing snakes" hanging on past the proper cutoff, you can try selectively automating fades on the offending channels. However, this is easier to do in the pop-music "voice per track" scenario (overdubbed one at a time, where you don't have to fight leakage).

Oh, and NOS is the two mics angled 90 degrees apart and capsules separated by 30 cm (about a foot).

[Steve L]

Yes they are already recorded and what I have is it. I figured a way of automating the EQ's and it seems to work just fine. I don't want to completely get rid of the breath or "ssssss" sounds just decrease them to a normal level. The singers don't always hit their sounds at the same time so I leave the one that sounds correct. I've mixed 4 songs and let a friend who has a studio listen and he said I was on the right track. I am also automating the volume on passages to decrease all the bleed on the piano. I know this will get bad responses but I used a SM81 on the piano high end and a Shure PZM laying right on the piano on the low end. I didn't have a lot of time to experiment. Also gave the director a demo of SS Basic as he wanted to try to "mix it himself".
Steve L.
Mountain View Recording
Audio-Video Electronics
Richmond, KY

[Steve L]

yes . ;)
Steve L.

[Bob L]

Sometimes I find that just zooming in on the waveform you can see the bad "ssss" exagerrated waveform data... in many cases I just mark across it and in Automation mode, just drop the fader 8 or 10db... this controls the "sss" annoyance factor without actually messing with the tone of the vocals... messing with the eq change to muffle out the "sss" is sometimes more noticable to my ear.

Bob L

[Cary B. Cornett]

I know this will get bad responses but I used a SM81 on the piano high end and a Shure PZM laying right on the piano on the low end.
Steve L.
Mountain View Recording
Audio-Video Electronics
Richmond, KY
The use of dissimilar mics for stereo capture of a decent grand piano can work surprisingly well. At a studio I worked at, SOP for recording their Baldwin SD-10 was an AKG 412 placed not quite midway along the bass strings, and a Neumann KM84 (both cardioid) over the high strings.

But for a live choir recording I don't do a stereo pickup of the piano, because I want it to sit "in the picture" of the main stereo pair. In fact, I almost never use the piano track in the mix because the piano holds its own against the choir without help from a spot mic. Of course, I'm talking traditional "classical" style choir recording here. If we're talking modern black gospel with a band, then you are looking for something a whole lot more like a record session, and in that case, yeah stereo pickup of the piano, assuming you aren't using a smapled instrument, where it's just direct anyway.

[Ian Alexander]

The use of dissimilar mics for stereo capture of a decent grand piano can work surprisingly well. At a studio I worked at, SOP for recording their Baldwin SD-10 was an AKG 412 placed not quite midway along the bass strings, and a Neumann KM84 (both cardioid) over the high strings.

But for a live choir recording I don't do a stereo pickup of the piano, because I want it to sit "in the picture" of the main stereo pair. In fact, I almost never use the piano track in the mix because the piano holds its own against the choir without help from a spot mic. Of course, I'm talking traditional "classical" style choir recording here. If we're talking modern black gospel with a band, then you are looking for something a whole lot more like a record session, and in that case, yeah stereo pickup of the piano, assuming you aren't using a smapled instrument, where it's just direct anyway.

I know you know this, but you can separate stereo piano tracks into two mono tracks and pan them to wherever you want the piano to be. You can have them panned slightly differently so it's a small stereo source or essentially make it mono at that spot on the stereo sound stage. Sometimes having two mics on the piano can give you more tonal control than EQ can achieve.

That said, in choral recordings I've done or assisted on, if there is any kind of accompaniment, we've often used a stereo pair for the whole stage and section mics on the choir, because sometimes instrumentalists are less than sensitive to the advantage they have over vocalists. And I played trombone and sang in school, so I've been the bully and the victim.

On the other hand, that reminds me of the time I was singing with a choir that joined an "early music" instrumental group for a concert. During the rehearsal, one of the violinists asked us to be sensitive to the fact that they were playing original instruments that aren't as loud as modern versions. I replied that we were using original instruments, too. It didn't go over well. :D

[Carl G.]

Sometimes I find that just zooming in on the waveform you can see the bad "ssss" exagerrated waveform data... in many cases I just mark across it and in Automation mode, just drop the fader 8 or 10db... this controls the "sss" annoyance factor without actually messing with the tone of the vocals... messing with the eq change to muffle out the "sss" is sometimes more noticable to my ear.

Bob L

Some use the De-esser route, but while quick and certainly effective, it can negatively affect other items within the freqency range of the "S". So, Bob's suggestion of automated audio level really does yield the cleanest most predictable results. Using the automation gallery - a simple highlight of the offending "S" and one click - it's fixed!