Subgroup Name propagation

[jlklein]

Hey folks,
So for this year's Christmas musical I am doing something similar to DCA-style theater mixing, such as is seen in this video (I think Richard posted this awhile back):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_d--J8z92I

I've got 16 wireless mics in use, plus 5 overhead choir mics, 16 orchestra mics and effects returns/sound effects to keep track of, so I've arranged 8 of the SAC outputs to subgroup various different channels at different times. I didn't use the latch group because the latch levels and mute status relationship with the channels don't track well with scene recalls, so I'm just doing simple subgroups. My scenes primarily change channel/FX/subgroup mutes, channel/FX output assignments to subgroups and label names on subgroups so I know what's what, in this order:
1-Character 1
2-Character 2
3-Character 3
4-Character 4
5-Character 5
6-Choir/Company
7-Orchestra
8-FX Returns/SFX

Groups 1-5 labels change character name as the scene recalls, 6&7 are constant and 8 alternates between FX return and computer SFX as needed.

So, the problem I have is this: We also do a separate recording mix for the DVD to add in all the acoustic sources that the FOH mix wouldn't contain (so we can't just use a "FOH copy"), which will require this same setup and scene recall on the DVD mix (Monitor mix 07 on our SAC template).

I really don't want to have to type in Subgroup labels multiple times to save up to 100 scenes twice, but unlike channel labels, the output labels don't propagate through to the monitor mixes. It's bad enough I have to recreate all of the individual channel output routings for each scene.

Any ideas? *Is* there a way to get the Monitor Mix subgroups (even just the soft groups) track the FOH label changes?

Thanks,
Jeff

[Bob L]

Jeff,

Unfortunately not at this time. I kept the out chan labels independent since I felt in general the different monitor mixes would usually be using different label names.

I will take a look at coming up with an option to force the label names thru to the other mixers, but right now it is a manual operation.

Bob L

[jlklein]

I was afraid that might be the answer.

Another thought I had was to let the DVD Mix tech mix his orchestra mix independently on his Monitor Mix and send him a submix of the characters and choir mix to combine with it for the DVD recording. Might be easier for him anyway as it takes away the responsibility of mixing the characters themselves.

What would be the easiest way to send him this submix into his Monitor Mix? I'm at work right now so don't have SAC in front of me.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Bob L]

Currently, the only submixes that can be passed straight down to the monitor mixers are the Aux Return chans... you could create a post submix on one of the FOH auxes and then pass that down from the return chan using the MON mixer pre or pst pass thru on the Return.

Or, you could send a post tap of the individual active chans of that submix on a monitor mixer and the mix would chase what you do at FOH.

I do have an update almost ready that will now allow the out chans to pass down thru to the monitor mixers... but it is not ready yet.

Bob L

[PhaseShifter]

I was afraid that might be the answer.

Another thought I had was to let the DVD Mix tech mix his orchestra mix independently on his Monitor Mix and send him a submix of the characters and choir mix to combine with it for the DVD recording. Might be easier for him anyway as it takes away the responsibility of mixing the characters themselves.

What would be the easiest way to send him this submix into his Monitor Mix? I'm at work right now so don't have SAC in front of me.

Thanks,
Jeff

Send it to an Aux and tap the Aux from the mon console.

[Bob L]

You might want to rethink the approach... not sure I would create the extra complexity of all this subgroup routing and label changing from scene to scene anyway.

How many characters do you have... why not assign each character to his own input chan and leave the labels alone. This way each character can be named and have all his eq, compression etc set and left alone. Even if multiple characters share input mics because you don't have enough rf packs and the same pack is used for different characters at different times... just assign multiple chans to the same input device and use the scenes to simply mute and unmute the proper chans.

And... if you really want group faders to pass mixes down thru the mon mixers, then reconsider using the Grp Latches instead... this works perfectly since they control the individual grouped chan inputs and these inputs can be tapped on all mixers... tapped pst fadr they will chase the FOH mix whether the input faders are used or the SubGroup Latch faders are used... perfect for passing any combination of chans into a monitor mix.

And they should not need re-assigning if you set it up correctly... and the scenes will hold these assignments perfectly as long as you never drop the Grp Latch faders below the point where latched chans fall below -inf... if you want a group to fade out all the way, just use the mutes on the grp latch faders and the mix will hold perfectly between scene changes.

Bob L

[jlklein]

How many characters do you have... why not assign each character to his own input chan and leave the labels alone. This way each character can be named and have all his eq, compression etc set and left alone. Even if multiple characters share input mics because you don't have enough rf packs and the same pack is used for different characters at different times... just assign multiple chans to the same input device and use the scenes to simply mute and unmute the proper chans.

We have 16 wireless mics and about 20 characters total. We do actually have each wireless mic on it's own channel, and we don't change those labels or EQ (unless to accommodate a mic pack swap). We decided to try the common theater approach of DCAs with the active channels/labels routed for simplicity of operation (although it does take more scene setup). It allows us to always have all the currently active characters, the chorus, the band and the FX return at our fingertips at all times (using a Zoom mixer locked to Outputs 9-16).

We then have a 16 channel Full Mixer view set up with F-keys to view all 16 mic channels, all 16 instrument channels, overhead/area mics and playback devices, or all effects returns and main outputs. This allows us to fine tune anything that we need with the mouse and keyboard while always having the current character, voice and music channels at our fingertips.


And... if you really want group faders to pass mixes down thru the mon mixers, then reconsider using the Grp Latches instead... this works perfectly since they control the individual grouped chan inputs and these inputs can be tapped on all mixers... tapped pst fadr they will chase the FOH mix whether the input faders are used or the SubGroup Latch faders are used... perfect for passing any combination of chans into a monitor mix.The problem with latches would be since we are routing different channels to the groups, latches actually move the individual channel levels and leaves them there during subsequent scenes when other channels are now routed to the same latches. So over time the individual channels can get lower and lower, or, if I drop a latch to minimum and then switch the routing with a scene, the previously routed channels are now sitting a minimum when the next scene routes them to a group. With using subgroups, we don't adjust the actual channel levels once set properly (although they can be tweaked at any time), so the individual channels are always at a usable level even when switched to another subgroup with a scene. If I drop a subgroup to zero at the end of a play scene, then switch SAC scenes, the next time I got to a scene that uses those channels they're still up where I need them.

Thanks,
Jeff

[airickess]

I do musicals all the time with my SAC rig. In my case it is the same show with the same script but different cast members each week - it's an after-school theater program at 16 different school.
We have 26 wireless and some playback. I set up the F-Mixer so I only see the wireless channels, playback channel, mains output and O9 as a group fader for the vocals and only the faders and channel labels. Then I write scenes for mic pickups according to the script. Once on site I tweak scene pickups as necessary when blocking or line assignments change. I've had a band a few times during this scenario and I've always basically just set up the channels, gotten a level and let them play. I'll put them on their own group fader (O10) and put that fader near the mains fader so I can control the band volume when needed. If I had more faders on the F-Mixer than screen real estate then I would set up a couple of different F Keys to change the view quickly from a wireless mic-centric view to a band-centric view to make any quick changes needed to the band.
I don't have an external control surface so I don't feel the need to set up the extra Group faders for that much more control. I'll set fader levels within scenes and when I need to control chorus volume I will set the scene to Select Partial Channels so that way the chorus channels are selected and I can control the entire chorus with one fader grab if need be.
One thing I've learned to do is put an instance of the Levelizer on the Vocal Group fader. Setting that as a true leveler with a threshold that won't effect solo singers but will tame chorus numbers has been a big help.

[Butch Bos]

I am also in the School musical hell time
How do you guys make QUICK scene updates such as adjusting slight eq or volume on a mic then move to scene list (which may have got hidden behind another window) make sure you are on the correct scene (and not on the next one:mad:) hit update then hit no to update partial ch then return and return again
I make hundreds of small changes and some scenes are only on stage for a very short time
Hey Bob how about a 1 key update current on deck scene
I could use Autohotkey but cant find a way make sure correct scene is updated

Butch

[Bob L]

Create an F-Key to display the scene view, then its easy to update.

The extra prompt for the partial chan update is an important and powerful feature... easy enough to click right thru it.

When making small changes to a scene... you should be recalling the scene as it is, then make whatever adjustments to faders and eq etc... then use the update function... simple and you will always be updating the proper scene because its the one you just recalled.

Bob L

[Butch Bos]

I agree with you Bob but many times I have only 1 or 2 seconds to do it before the next scene
I have got very quick but sometimes update the wrong scene :eek:

Butch

[Bob L]

The use of scenes is a complex operation and is best programmed during rehearsals not live during the show. It requires careful consideration to program a performance and tweak the adjustments.

Bob L

[Naturally Digital]

Hey Bob how about a 1 key update current on deck sceneOne-button update would be a great feature... Have the software track what changes have been made since the last recall and with one command update the current scene with those changes.

[airickess]

My scenes mainly control fader levels and mutes. EQ, routing and channel labels are left alone, with the occasional exception of a channel label changing with a mic swap.
Since I do the same show with multiple casts I've found it much easier and faster to adjust the gain on the preamp for the different cast members than it is to change levels within a scene and reprogram on the fly. As Butch noted it is too easy to make a mistake with scene programming.
As Bob stated the trick with Scenes is to recall the scene you want to change. If you have Auto Advance on then the highlighted scene in the Scenes window will be the Next Scene, not the one you just recalled, so you must then highlight the intended scene in the Scenes window (by putting the cursor on it and left-clicking on it with a single click) - if you don't then you will change the next scene that is highlighted, NOT the current scene.
I only choose the channels I want the scene to change, NOT the entire console state. I do that by selecting the desired channels in the F Mixer by clicking on the top channel number. I then choose to Update the partial channel data on the selected channels and choose only the parameters that need to be changed. This way any EQ, routing or other parameters I've changed on the Mains or any Monitors channels do not get saved with the scene and will then track through the entire show.

[Butch Bos]

How about an option to bypass most of the scene update stuff
Just hit update and it would be like saying no to update ch and enter to the scene list
Maybe label it with a HazMat symbol to make sure you really want to do it
Then I could just select the scene in the list and hit update

Butch

[jlklein]

Well, we had our first full Christmas musical run-through using the pseudo DCA method (using SAC groups) and, while it does have its advantages, it was a bit of an issue updating scenes for the ever present last minute changes we endure (one character's line moved to another, random mid-song one-liner added last minute...you know, because they're already mic'd for later dialog).

I think if we had a month of daily tech rehearsals like true theater houses have, all these would be worked out well before the performance, however, as a church that just does a few big musical theater productions each year, we only get about 5 actual full run-through all-character/chorus rehearsals to work all of this out (only 3 with orchestra).

The biggest thing I missed was having all drama mics run to the same subgroup like I usually do, so if a character needed to be added/changed I just had to unmute or mute the appropriate channels and re-save the scene, which is pretty quick, as opposed to also routing the output to the appropriate group and labeling/re-labeling it correctly, which is not. Or, if I needed to adjust a channel parameter I instinctively selected the fader I was adjusting, which is only the group that it was routed to. I'd have to move to the on-screen Full Mixer view with the mouse to select and adjust parameters, which took more time than I wanted.

So, good method with plenty of time to program, however, I think I'll go back to the simple channel, subgroup and mute group method I was using before.

HTH,
Jeff

[airickess]

So, good method with plenty of time to program, however, I think I'll go back to the simple channel, subgroup and mute group method I was using before.


I too think that method works best for a busy show with little tech time.