16 in 8 out remote peamps Digital snake

[Frank DeWitt]

Com over redundant CAT5 using Dante
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Tio1608D

I am looking really hard at three of these for our church. Seems like exactly what we need two on the platform and one in the booth. They would support he mains, sub, IEMs from the front, and all our booth inputs and outputs for recording, foyers cans ETC in the booth.

Frank

[PhaseShifter]

How do you expect to control the preamp gain?

These are also similarly priced to the allen & heath ones used on the qu and gld mixers.

[Frank DeWitt]

How do you expect to control the preamp gain?

These are also similarly priced to the allen & heath ones used on the qu and gld mixers.

The QU hardware is proprietary The Yamaha uses Dante I will be controlling it including preamp gain with AMP. I didn't upgrade my SAC license so I don't know what SAC supports anymore.

[PhaseShifter]

Is this with the Dante PCI card or through the virtual soundcard?

[Frank DeWitt]

Is this with the Dante PCI card or through the virtual soundcard?
the Dante PCI card, which features a redundant connection. This provides 128x128 channels.

[Larry Burger]

Frank,

We have used SAC with rednet pcie for many years in our Church.
We are using a Yamaha big cousin RIO 1608 and rednet 4's preamps.
The Yamaha RIO can use the RIO remote but SAC does not control preamp gain for those devices directly to my knowledge.
The Rednet preamps new control will allow saving preamp configurations just not controlled from SAC.

[TomyN]

Hi,
why not use two S-16? In this case you can control the the Gain via the unit at the FoH or using a plug in for SAC (which would need a midi connection to the stage).

Tomy

[RBIngraham]

Hi,
why not use two S-16? In this case you can control the the Gain via the unit at the FoH or using a plug in for SAC (which would need a midi connection to the stage).

Tomy

How do you get AES50 In and Out of your computer then? Yeah you can use those ADAT ports but that's the entire point of going with Dante, to get rid of all these damn ADAT optical ports which were never intended for this use and are always flacky. AES50 is also point to point, not a network like Dante. With Dante you can build a true star network and drop mulitple I/O units where you need them without the need to create a daisy chain like you do with AES50 or MADI or Blulink, etc...

[RBIngraham]

How do you expect to control the preamp gain?

These are also similarly priced to the allen & heath ones used on the qu and gld mixers.

Yamaha has an application you can run on Mac or PC to control any of the RIO or the TIO box. It's the last tab on the product page on the web site.

[RBIngraham]

Plus I would spend $1K on a Yamaha box any day over spending $900 on anything from Behringer. :)

[Frank DeWitt]

I am going to wait to see what comes out of Infocomm and then pull the trigger.

I hope to have a couple of MOTU 2408s and some Focusrite preamps for sale soon (Grin)

[TomyN]

Well, as I understood the opener, the topic of this thread is a simple 16/8 digital snake.
For me, snake means something with XLR on both ends...

I know that there is only one solution on the market to get AES50 into your pc. Personaly I'm sceptical with 'real time data' over consumer network switches and pc - network cards, so I try to put the pc close to the converters to avoid the need for long snake (either analog or digital) runs.

Tomy

[Frank DeWitt]

Well, as I understood the opener, the topic of this thread is a simple 16/8 digital snake.
For me, snake means something with XLR on both ends...

I know that there is only one solution on the market to get AES50 into your pc. Personaly I'm sceptical with 'real time data' over consumer network switches and pc - network cards, so I try to put the pc close to the converters to avoid the need for long snake (either analog or digital) runs.

Tomy

Quite correct. I named the thread and I named it wrong. It is a digital stage head. I should have called it that.
I would not use a system that sent the signal over over consumer network switches and pc - network cards, I haven't even looked at them. Dante is a whole different ball game. Testing shows 3.74ms! latency. The cards at both end are designed to move audio and there is a redundant hook up between them. Also lots of electronics on board the card to keep things fast and keep a lot of load off the PC.

[RBIngraham]

Well, as I understood the opener, the topic of this thread is a simple 16/8 digital snake.
For me, snake means something with XLR on both ends...

I know that there is only one solution on the market to get AES50 into your pc. Personaly I'm sceptical with 'real time data' over consumer network switches and pc - network cards, so I try to put the pc close to the converters to avoid the need for long snake (either analog or digital) runs.

Tomy

Fair enough. I just have the background insight to know what Frank is up to. And your comment does point out that "digital snake" can mean almost anything. I don't automatically think of something with XLR at either end when someone says digital snake. The only thing I assume with that term is that you're not using multi-pair analog copper. And other than that, all bets are off. :)


I forgot there is that Lynx card to get AES50 I/O on a computer. But I don't think if allows for a very large channel count if memory serves.

As for the being skeptical, all I can say is I've worked with several Dante based systems and products now. It works very well and as I said before I would trust that over the behringer crap any day. :rolleyes: If you're doing it correctly you're not using a cheap consumer switch although for smaller simple systems you could do so. Most manufacturers recommend using a managed switch with QOS support and that is certainly what I have seen in the field. As for the computer's NIC cards your standard off the shelf computer is just fine for running DVS. I have used it in major theatres and have not had any issues other than dealing with huge matrix to patch all the devices and sorting out which box is which in Dante controller. Once it is set up it is very reliable. But DVS is not designed to run a virtual mixing console on your computer and no one is suggestion you could or should do that. It works just fine for playback and/or recording. If you want low latency performance you get yourself one of the several Dante PCIe cards available from a few manufacturers and those have typical audio interface performance in regards to latency. The newest models even have the redundant LAN ports on the PCIe card just like most hardware has. It's a pretty solid system. While Yamaha certainly doesn't always make the wisest of choices they certainly have a track record of not ****ing around when it comes to their more higher end live mixing consoles. I don't think they would have invested all the time and effort into fully embracing Dante if it wasn't ready for prime time. I don't know many audio pros who would balk at using a CL or even a QL console. Not any worth listening to anyway. :rolleyes: And both of those lines of consoles use Dante as their primary I/O to the console. A CL series desk is essentially worthless without it's Dante I/O boxes.

I don't say that to really take anything away from the AES50 protocol. It's unfortunate that only Music Group hardware seems to make much use of it. Midas certainly makes good products and their gear seems to be going the AES50 route now. But no one else seems to be making use of it. So there is no ability to share that data with other manufacturer's devices without some translator box in between. In the end though it is only a point to point protocol, similar to MADI and if you want to run multiple drops to various points around a venue you need some kind of router and the only ones I know of are units from Klark. From the standpoint of an installed system in a venue with Dante you just run lots of CAT5e or CAT6 and then those tie lines could be used for almost anything. Your audio distribution, your video distribution, standard computer network, etc... Just plug in the correct box at each end. While you can do something similar with MADI or AES50 it requires more hardware and none of it is inexpensive.

There are obviously benefits and drawbacks to every protocol and I don't mean to sound like I think Dante has no flaws. But it certainly has the most momentum and the most products that support it and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere any time soon. It's a pretty safe bet if you're trying to pick which protocol to go with especially if you're starting from scratch.

[TomyN]

Hi Frank,

thanks.
It's still an 16in / 8 out system in a church?

Tomy

[Mattseymour]

The nothing else that comes close to the flexibility and compatibility of Dante. Because Audinate make all the chipsets, they're all compatible with each other no matter which manufacturer is implementing them. Aes50 is hopeless to interface directly to a PC, AVB could be great but is too far behind and implementations are not necessarily compatible.

Ive recently parted company with my motu 2408s and adat preamps in favour of Dante kit.

[TomyN]

Hi,

I perfectly agree that DANTE currently is be the way to go if you need compatibility and flexibility.

Tomy

[Andy Follett]

If you're doing it correctly you're not using a cheap consumer switch although for smaller simple systems you could do so. Most manufacturers recommend using a managed switch with QOS support and that is certainly what I have seen in the field. As for the computer's NIC cards your standard off the shelf computer is just fine for running DVS.

It works just fine for playback and/or recording. If you want low latency performance you get yourself one of the several Dante PCIe cards available from a few manufacturers and those have typical audio interface performance in regards to latency.




I can confirm that a $100-150 router/switch will do the job for a smaller system - I'm running 32X32. "Managed" and "QOS" (quality of service) are the key words here. If you have any data running across the same (Dante) network i.e. network capable iems or mics, you MUST prioritize the audio over data within the managed switch/router software or you will have multiple/obvious glitches in the Dante audio. Don't know if you need to prioritize when you have nothing but audio going thru the network - I have data as well on the network (iems, mics, lights) and I can only speak to that setup.

I use it for record/playback and its perfect for that. A 10 year old laptop with a 10/100 LAN port running Reaper with DVS never misses a beat.

[Mattseymour]

I'm sure it won't surprise folk that not all switches are created equal. With Dante you get better performance with 1Gb switches than with 100Mb. You're right that qos only comes into the picture when you have more traffic flowing around. Particularly important when you're implementing Dante on a facility network that's also used for general IT. Note that you can do this and with the correct qos setup it will work very well. Qos is important in this scenario.

[Frank DeWitt]

Hi Frank,

thanks.
It's still an 16in / 8 out system in a church?

Tomy

My plan is to configure three of them for a 48 in 24 out system.
I will place two up front for 32 in and 16 out. this gives me outputs where I need them for mains, Subs, Chior monitor, and 10 IEMs

I will place a 3rd one in the booth. This gives me inputs for wireless mics,audio from video, CDs ETC. and talkback.
It gives me outputs for cans for the FOH system and the record system and foyer speakers, recording, hearing impaired and audio feed for the HDMI to the nursery ETC.

[operationwhat]

Here's an email from Yamaha, regarding their Dante PCI card connectivity to their hardware preamps.The Driver for the AIC128 Card provides an ASIO Interface to the computer, however it is recommended to use the Resume Mode of the RIO3224D otherwise it will always wait for a console with ID1 to get the settings. In resume mode this is not necessary. The Headamps can be controlled by the R-Remote software http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/downloads/firmware_software/rio/Best RegardsYour Yamaha Customer Service Team Detlef Burchard

[airickess]

The nothing else that comes close to the flexibility and compatibility of Dante. Because Audinate make all the chipsets, they're all compatible with each other no matter which manufacturer is implementing them. Aes50 is hopeless to interface directly to a PC, AVB could be great but is too far behind and implementations are not necessarily compatible.

Ive recently parted company with my motu 2408s and adat preamps in favour of Dante kit.Matt, can you elaborate? What, specifically, did you do? I'm carting around 32 channels of preamps in a rack with a 3ru PC. It's heavy and I'm getting tired of lugging it around, so I'm interested in a lighter solution.

[Mattseymour]

Like you I had a nicely racked up case on wheels with everything in. Nice at a venue and fine with a van and two people but a nightmare to get into my car on my own, which is more of the stuff I do

Now my PC is in a shallow 2u case which I carry in a rack bag. That has the rednet pcie card.

For interfaces I went for the Presonus RM units with Dante card. Got a 32 and a 16 channel version. Each is in their own rack case.

For foh I'm using Dante Via on a laptop with a motu 828 so I've got analogue io for monitoring, inputs for video playback, etc and I can playback straight from iTunes or whatever. Yes that has latency, analogue in to out over via is about 20ms, but for playback purposes it's fine.

I use a soho router with gigabit ports to link it all together.

So I've got 48 channels, plus whatever I may choose to use on via, in a few light flight case and a bit of cat5 to link it altogether.

[Enrico]

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/northamerica/en_us/downloads/firmware_software/dante/ maybe it's possible to run this to remote preamp on TIO 1608

[RBIngraham]

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/northamerica/en_us/downloads/firmware_software/dante/ maybe it's possible to run this to remote preamp on TIO 1608


That is Dante Controller. It is used to set up routing amoung various I/O points on a Dante Audio Network.

To control the TIO box's preamps you use this:

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/northamerica/en_us/products/interfaces/tio1608d/tab1.jsp

[Enrico]

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/northamerica/en_us/products/interfaces/tio1608d/tab1.jsp

GREAT!!!