how is this possible and does it matter?

[trock]

Love SAW, this is not about SAW

my taylor 314ce direct into a m-audio 410 straight into SAW, no comp, eq or anything, while sounds a little tinny sounds pretty darn good

my taylor -? AT405 -> Avalon M5 to 410 ->SAW sounds worse.

especially with a pick, it is really annoying with a pick and strum, the finger picking EITHER way is good.

different mic positions all over the place, different polar posistions off the mic etc

i just don't get it, is all this hype about gear just that?? i mean the M5 is supposed to be good, the 4050 is supposed to be good, i know i should buy more mics but that isn't an option for a while

this KILLS me

to me SAW sounds better than the 2480 i had, but check this out. this guy here uses ONLY a 2480, 737sp and a AT4040 and listen to his results??

www.chipsongs.com

he was a 2480 user and on the forum that i always thought got GREAT sounds.

anyway not to bring that up but if i think and know SAW is a better sounding end DAW than the 2480 i would think i should be able to get decent results with all the other equipment too??

you can tell this is sort of a rant, just spent 2 hours trying and trying to get a decent sound, not GREAT, just decent with a mic/acoustic.

i guess i just don't get it, i must be the worlds WORST engineer. crap i just want to songwrite.

sorry for this but does anyone run an acoustic here direct cause it sounds BETTER than a mic'd situation??

oh and i add the avalon 747sp into the mix with some comp and eq and it gets worse

ok off to go direct and toss the rest of this stuff out the window

any ideas would be greatly appreciated

thanks all

[AudioAstronomer]

Room and player make a much larger difference than any mic, software or preamp.

Id venture to say it's the room... and I think the 4050 sounds terrible on acoustic.

[UpTilDawn]

Don't give up. It takes time.

First time I decided to start recording my guitar with a mic, I thought I must have gotten a raw deal... with my AKG C414. I couldn't understand why it sounded so crappy. I was ready to send it back, when I got a hold of a couple of good articles outlining some of the ways people like to mic acoutstic guitars and realized it was ME that was bein' crappy, not that microphone! :confused: :)

A few dozen guitar tracks later, I finally began to hear the kind of sound I wanted and now the AKG is one of my favorite mics in combination with a couple Audio Technica 4041's on steel string. I hardly ever use the direct in anymore.

DanT :)

So much of what you'll get is a result of fine tuning the mic, the mic and instrument placement and other little details that really only come with time..
My guess is that the pick and strum problems have more to do with where you place the mic than anything. Sometimes fingerpicking and flatpicking may require different arrangements to sound equally good to your ears.
edited by DT

[Tim Miskimon]

Hi,
Just for kicks try using a different microphone. Say a Shure Beta 58 or something like it and see if the sound is closer to what you're looking for.
Try pointing the mic at the place where the neck meets the body and place it about a foot from the guitar & see if the sound is closer to what you want to hear.
Also different makes & gauges of strings can make a major difference in the sound of the guitar.
And finally as mentioned before a person's hands is the most important part of the sound.
Some people dampen the guitar down too much with their arms & hands against the strings & the body of the guitar. It chokes off the sound of overtones and makes the guitar sound thin and dead.
Try some different techniques like how you rest the guitar against your body and your arms against the strings and body.
I think you'll find that changes the sound & character of the instrument much more than any microphone will.
Acoustic instruments are all about vibrations - good vibrations... :D
Tim

[Sebastian Eskildsen]

Room and player make a much larger difference than any mic, software or preamp.

__________________
Lovingly signed,
Robert Randolph

It's so true !
One thing you could begin to investigate, is how to
calculate critical distance, and learn how room reflection
will change your sound for the good or bad.
over time you will be able to find the right instrument placement and mic
placement without to much fuss.
Don´t spend your time buying expensive mic pre and converters, it wont
help you.
When buying a mic, fokuse on what you will use it for, eg. close or distance
mic'ing.

Sebastian

[mghtx]

Robert is right. You have to keep experimenting.

I run both direct and mic at the same time and blend only if needed. Sometimes it takes a LONG time to get a sound right.

Experiment with the equipment you have first before you buy anything else.

Acoustic instruments are really touchy (no pun intended). I have a Taylor that most of the time sounds great. I also have a crappy no-name that sometimes sounds better than the Taylor when recorded.

There are a lot of variables involved. Are you recording in the day or at night. How humid is it? Etc. (Which goes back to the room or location.)

Keep trying and let us know how it turns out. :)

[Tree Leopard]

Trock - OK, some ideas... you asked for it!:)

I do a lot of recording with all kinds of guitars - classical, steel, jazz, and solid body. Tim highlighted possibily the most important aspect of good guitar sound - your hands. How you touch the guitar, how you hold it.

If you have a sound in your head - perhaps based on live concerts or small gigs you've seen or a recording - then you have to keep trying different combinations of things until you hear that sound. Using SAW or a cassette recorder won' t make any difference until you hear it! :)

mghtx just said it! Use what you've got as a starting point. Experiment. Wildy! Put mikes in cardboard tubes (Tchad Blake), play in the bath room (Les Paul), put stuff between the strings (Fred Frith) record in the garden (Jimmy Page)...

Equally you need some inspiration on the equipment side of things. Again (sigh) its research.

From my own quest - after checking out a great number of so-called "industry standards" - Buzz Audio SSA 1.1 mic pre-amp/DI combo goes highly recommended.
http://www.buzz-audio.com/products/products.htm

Buzz Audio are a small company based in New Zealand who make pre-amps of outstanding quality - very high output with extremely low noise - meaning they're great too with dynamics and ribbons. As a DI - just excellent - very pleasant warm, clear results.

Personally recording direct with a Fishman direct out is not my cup of tea. Where its possible do it acoustic all the way.

AKG C414 - B-XLS is an example of well-built versatile large capsule mic well suited to acoustic guitars that has a real edge over any those hyped up "great value" mics made in China. Milab from Sweden have a great dynamic - the D37 - which could just the ticket for plectrum work.

I just mention these items as a reminder that there are many elegant technical solutions out there for recording guitars. Once you feel re-connected with your inspiration and you start tracking with SAW it will be divine! :)

Andre

[MMP]

I've never really liked large condensor mics on acoustic guitar, except as a room mic. My first choice is a ribbon, like an AEA, Coles, or Royer. Second choice would be a small diaphram condensor like a Neumann 84, 184, or AKG 452 with the cardioid capsule(ck61?). In a great room small diaphram omnis can work well, like QTC1s.

I think you should borrow a small diaphram cardioid mic from a store or friend and give it a whirl.

Regards,

MM

[AcousticGlue]

MICS, preamps and guitars are all subjective matter. Placement with certain mic and preamp, along with mixture of guitars' preamp can sound good depending on where you are at in room, how you're playing (pick or fingers) and your taste of mixing this. I gave up on buying high-dollar mics, own a AKG4000B and Studio Projects C1 for acoustic guitar going through Behringer preamp. Basses, it's better to have a great bass but if not have a great bass pedal like Boss GT-6B. Electrics can be mic'ed through amps and/or use pedals, I have VG-8EX by Roland (whilst not perfect gives hundreds of sounds that can be tweaked). I used to have $2000 preamps and Neumann mics and they have their value but don't necessarily make the instrument all the time.

[kent]

It took us a full year to iron out enough details to capture good accoustic tracks. Alot/(most) of the time/effort went into preparing the isolation room. We moved/rebuilt it 3 times before we found a good sounding shape/configuration/location. Configuration included anechoic treatment of the walls and ceiling, carpeting, door placement, 8 channel snake, lighting. (Hehe.....and you just wanted a decent accoustic guitar recording, what the hell are these guys talking about doors and carpet for?) Here at the Root Cellar we empirically found that the recording space/room is of equal import to the recording equipment (Mic through to recording surface) and Musicianship. Lately we are recording 3 tracks for accoustic guitar. A C1 centered on the hole 2ft to 3 ft away, . A C1000 pointing towards the nut 1ft away. A direct from the guitar body.
Sometimes accoustic guitars have 2 recording transducers; a piezo pickup, and a body mic. There could be a slider/knob to control the mix of which transducer to record from. We've been getting much better results when we set the mix fully to body mic. The piezo has not given good results to date.
With the 3 tracks recorded there's enough to choose from and stereo image/mix.
As stated in the other threads, perseverance (Continuance in a state of grace until it is succeeded by a state of glory, 1913 Webster) is the key.

N.B.: To date we've recorded more acc. guitar tracks that sucked. It's only the last 2 or so months that we've begun to approve of our own hard efforts.

Kent

[trock]

WOW

thanks for all the positive feedback

on other forums i would have been ready for

"you need to spend at least 40K before you can expect any tangible results"

or

"you do suck"

or

"maybe you should just quit"

anyway, i have to look at the room acoustics for sure, for now i am just going to go direct and keep practicing.

today is a better day, getting some sleep always helps things look better

thanks all :)

[bcorkery]

on other forums i would have been ready for
"you need to spend at least 40K before you can expect any tangible results"
or
"you do suck"
or
"maybe you should just quit"
Trock,

Thanks for the comic relief!
Now get some more sleep.

Bill Corkery

[mghtx]

Hey trock, I just thought of something else.

There are several Rolling Stones songs with what I would call a "not that great" acoustic guitar sound. (Mind you I'm not talking about the PLAYING) However, the song itself has the feel and the magic that we all strive for.

So just keep that in mind. When the inspiration is there and the music is cooking it's WAY more important to just CAPTURE it. Don't let the quest for the perfect sound kill the mood.

How many times have you heard about some big name artist using their home demos on a song instead of what they later did at a million dollar studio?

Just a thought....

[Jay Q]

Trock,

Lots of wisdom here from wiser people than me. Just a couple things to add:

1) If you're not getting the sound you want by doing things the "right" way, try doing them the "wrong" way. Our intuition isn't always right, and you may end up getting a great sound by, e.g., placing the mic(s) in a weird position.

2) Get a second opinion. Sometimes we get too absorbed in trying to find that perfect sound and start to lose perspective (been there, done that). If you can't get some other trustworthy ears in the room with you, try posting some samples and put the links here so folks can give you feedback.

Jay

[Tim Miskimon]

Milab from Sweden have a great dynamic - the D37 - which could just the ticket for plectrum work.


Andre

Hi,
I haven't used or heard of Milab mics for a long while. (80s)
Are they still being made?
If so who sells them in the USA?
I always thought they were great sounding mics but I've been unable to locate them.
Tim

[Tree Leopard]

Hi,
I haven't used or heard of Milab mics for a long while. (80s)
Are they still being made?
If so who sells them in the USA?
I always thought they were great sounding mics but I've been unable to locate them.
Tim Tim - yes, still going strong. The VIP-50 is really the jewel in their crown.
http://www.milabmic.com/welcome.asp
I seem to remember that there was a distributer in Canada who also supplies for the USA - best to email Milab.
Andre

[Mountain Media]

Tim - yes, still going strong. The VIP-50 is really the jewel in their crown.
http://www.milabmic.com/welcome.asp
I seem to remember that there was a distributer in Canada who also supplies for the USA - best to email Milab.
Andre
The following link (Canadian) lists reps for the USA, and are Milab distributors.

http://www.musicmarketing.ca/aboutus.cfm

[Carey Langille]

I use my Milab mics on Hi Hats, ACC gtrs ... They are very diferent.. The Rectanglar Diaphram is unique and hav a very different, smooth, sound... :)

[kent]

Carey, if I may ask, which model Milab do you use and on what instrument is the model used on? (I see that you mentioned Hi Hats, ACC gtrs, but model?) I haven't tried Milab mics. I read about them online and I am interested to hear more about them.
Kent

[Carey Langille]

I Have 2 MiLab C96 Condensers. I like them very much on Acc Gtr ( I use a Taylor 412CE Myself but i have used it on many Martins, and old gibsons with great success!), and the Hi Hats... As Overheads they didnt really do it for me and horns were ok, a bit too bright...(Oh yea, Standup Bass they worked well on as well.) They have a very smooth response and also produce a very tight bottom end. It really is a different sound than a traditional round element. From everything i have read about the milab design, They can produce a smaller element to produce the same or better frequency response of a larger circular element.I have also used it on Cello with Great success but not Violin..too Bright for me as well...
http://www.milabmic.com/system/admin/PageManager/pm_uploads/related/images/highres/DC96B_w314xh390.jpgThis is the Current model the DC96B (Black)

[kent]

Thanks Carey for the interesting app notes for the Milab C96. We commonly record accoustic Gtr here at Root Cellar, n that Milab'll have to get borrowed from somewhere to give it a go.
Cheers, Kent