Spectral Layers 10 Pro Blowing My Mind

[Todd R]

Um, I am blown away at how amazing Spectral Layers 10 Pro is.

Removal of crew chatter on the shotgun mics and retaining the ambient "tone" of the locations recorded is possible

I look forward to using it on music

there's a bit of a learning curve, but, WOW! amazing results

[UpTilDawn]

Pretty remarkable results at separating parts in song, drum and multiple voice extractions so far.
Of course, now I need even more precision and ability to distinguish more instruments (winds and brass, strings, etc. - I'll never be completely satisfied... :) ).

It's allowed me to salvage quite a few recordings in just the past few months. And I barely use its features other than "unmix"...

[Todd R]

Pretty remarkable results at separating parts in song, drum and multiple voice extractions so far.
Of course, now I need even more precision and ability to distinguish more instruments (winds and brass, strings, etc. - I'll never be completely satisfied... :) ).

It's allowed me to salvage quite a few recordings in just the past few months. And I barely use its features other than "unmix"...
I'm manually removing crew chatter and retaining ambiance ...shocking how great it is at that

I haven't tried any music until just now...clearly the AI needs to learn about the entire symphony rather than pop song parts!

It's surely coming soon

we've been generating AI text reads for an online course these past few months (not SL)
and the improvements from the summer to the fall 2023 went from unusable to indistinguishable
frankly the AI is better than getting a human reading for difficult text...the AI doesn't flub
tongue twisters like a human...and saves time at the cost of some expression

I mean, I doubt anyone could blind test the difference between human and AI

[Microstudio]

What is that compared to Izotop RX 10?

[UpTilDawn]

They both have their strong points for me.
Where separating parts is concerned, Spectra has the ability to potentially eek out more useful parts and offers more options - like separating drum sounds into kick, snare and cymbals - which it does quite well, depending on the style and complexity. Although I haven't had a lot of need to dig deep yet, it also is quite good at separating multiple voices and lets you choose how many to limit the search to.

Sometimes, so far, RX is better overall and sometimes Spectra is better. At first I thought I might abandon RX for this job. but it quickly became apparent that for my needs, I'd better plan on using both.

[Todd R]

What is that compared to Izotop RX 10?
RX10 Advanced costs $1000.00 more than Spectral Layers! I'm not an Izotope fan, personally...

maybe watch a YT shootout?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3rz1uFrY_8&t=60s

[Todd R]

I'm using it a lot more like this guy...my audio is on location on a no budget film...his is "in the studio"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxvMKZ5mxpA&t=1287s

[Todd R]

hmmmm...as far as unmix of music, it's not really there yet for my purposes beyond some amount of deconstruction to then re-record...it's alright at separating drums and vocals...but so much of my homespun music is loaded with layered cross-overs where the AI in something like Spectral Layers needs to be taught which specific instrument is what timbre...

[Todd R]

Nevermind this awful Steinberg video (the audio is terrible in these and the self-aggrandizing nature of some of the commentary is utterly nauseating), the advice in this video's first comment is priceless (careful, the author wants money if he finds his advice regurgitated elsewhere so I shant quote him beyond my quick summary)
This guys says to unmix many, many, MANY times then comp as makes sense. Seems like very solid advice. I am "hacking with manual tools", so I'll try out the multiple passes of unmix to see if that improves things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3O6UGw-xOQ

[Todd R]

Well, just to say I tried multiple passes of mixing and I didn't experience much joy. I'm certainly getting much further hacking manually. The material I'm working on is a scene where we are mid-interview with the main contributor at the front of his house and a friend of his drives up and the friends dog goes off barking and the crew chatters ...I'm trying to break it down into separate parts...unmix noisy speech works pretty good the first pass...and then does hardly anything (if anything) on subsequent passes of unmixing the noise

maybe working with music yields better results

[UpTilDawn]

I don't think it has as much to do with multiple passes as it does with making new layers that contain the bits you want to keep from the initial separation. Then blending those layers into comp'd versions to eventually mix back together.
There's an example of one way to do that process in one of those videos (I'm not at a pc that I can do much with at the moment....).

One thing I realized is that it's necessary to highlight/make active the unmixed track that you want to further edit and extract bits from, as opposed to just leaving the main track active. Then it's necessary to drag the bit track(s) underneath the track you want to blend it with... things that are not readily apparent to me, anyway. Difficult for me to describe when I'm not at the machine and with as little experience as I have with the program so far.

[Todd R]

I don't think it has as much to do with multiple passes as it does with making new layers that contain the bits you want to keep from the initial separation. Then blending those layers into comp'd versions to eventually mix back together.
There's an example of one way to do that process in one of those videos (I'm not at a pc that I can do much with at the moment....).

One thing I realized is that it's necessary to highlight/make active the unmixed track that you want to further edit and extract bits from, as opposed to just leaving the main track active. Then it's necessary to drag the bit track(s) underneath the track you want to blend it with... things that are not readily apparent to me, anyway. Difficult for me to describe when I'm not at the machine and with as little experience as I have with the program so far.
I hear ya
yeah, it took me a several attempts to get kind of a workflow
I separated noise from voices;
then separated voices a few times until I was able to make a comp of the unwanted voices
then using colors it is possible to use the color contrast as an overlay and edit the main source...from the guide

it does work...I took photos I could share here...

as far as multiple passes, read the comment in that video...the multiple passes wasn't my idea...I was trying what the one guy said and didn't experience much joy doing so :-)

[UpTilDawn]

...
as far as multiple passes, read the comment in that video...the multiple passes wasn't my idea...I was trying what the one guy said and didn't experience much joy doing so :-)


Oh, yeah... Gotcha... I don't get how multiple passes would achieve anything.
I haven't tried it though either. It's taken multiple experiments and views of various videos to get even a basic strategy together on the tracks I've needed to process so far. Mine are mostly music and hardly anything approaching the consistency of the typical popular song mix. So I've been straining the grey matter to modify the instruction I've gotten so far in ways that work for my needs. Success has been coming...... slowly.

But what sold me on it was the very first effort, where I was able to recover an almost inaudible bass part on an old 80's LP that had been mixed badly... The bass player had been disgusted by the album all these years and I was able to pull off a decent remix of the album for him to be proud of, finally. (This was actually the only "typical" music I've done this with so far).

[Todd R]

Oh, yeah... Gotcha... I don't get how multiple passes would achieve anything.
I haven't tried it though either. It's taken multiple experiments and views of various videos to get even a basic strategy together on the tracks I've needed to process so far. Mine are mostly music and hardly anything approaching the consistency of the typical popular song mix. So I've been straining the grey matter to modify the instruction I've gotten so far in ways that work for my needs. Success has been coming...... slowly.

But what sold me on it was the very first effort, where I was able to recover an almost inaudible bass part on an old 80's LP that had been mixed badly... The bass player had been disgusted by the album all these years and I was able to pull off a decent remix of the album for him to be proud of, finally. (This was actually the only "typical" music I've done this with so far).
that's great! forensic work can certainly re-write the book at times :-)

In case you didn't dive into it, the comment in that video this fellow says:
"It's tedious and not-as-intended, but in a SL centered workflow I would recommend hitting Unmix as many times as possible until the sources it produces no longer yield useful information. There is only so much you can do in a manual workflow. Visual tools can not discriminate complex timbres and choral harmonies well. Machine learning can digitally filter sounds almost as we do mentally, far superior to what most manual tools can do"

and further:
"After close to 20 rounds of unmixing and tweaking, I can turn most audio I bring into SL into perfect stems with the notable exception of music containing multiple different instruments (saxophone, synth, birdsong) not in the standard selection of sources (guitar, piano, drums, bass, vocal)..."

[UpTilDawn]

that's great! forensic work can certainly re-write the book at times :-)

In case you didn't dive into it, the comment in that video this fellow says:
"It's tedious and not-as-intended, but in a SL centered workflow I would recommend hitting Unmix as many times as possible until the sources it produces no longer yield useful information. There is only so much you can do in a manual workflow. Visual tools can not discriminate complex timbres and choral harmonies well. Machine learning can digitally filter sounds almost as we do mentally, far superior to what most manual tools can do"

and further:
"After close to 20 rounds of unmixing and tweaking, I can turn most audio I bring into SL into perfect stems with the notable exception of music containing multiple different instruments (saxophone, synth, birdsong) not in the standard selection of sources (guitar, piano, drums, bass, vocal)..."



There's certainly a lot to absorb here - when the text is actually visible, that is. :)

I'm sure to find the perfect scenario for trying those methods sooner, rather than later. The trick will be finding the time to experiment to that degree. We'll see how it goes.

[Todd R]

There's certainly a lot to absorb here - when the text is actually visible, that is. :)

I'm sure to find the perfect scenario for trying those methods sooner, rather than later. The trick will be finding the time to experiment to that degree. We'll see how it goes.
whoops! I'll fix it

[Todd R]

OK, let me clarify
I use SS64 as my main DAW and am using Spectral Layers as a wave editor; to then mix the processed audio in SS64 for my films and music.
I will certainly do the same with other sources than the films.

I just thought I'd share with this community in the event it might help someone else or have a discussion with other SAW users who might be doing the same.
My goodness, we talk about all kinds of things on this forum. Using another software, like a sound wave editor for work in SAW is par for the course afaiaa.

Well, I've been warned via PM that this thread possibly breaks RML Labs forum rules.
I find that shocking, but maybe I'm well and truly out of line?
In my view, if we can't talk in public, then something's not quite right.
So let's cover the viability with using a separate software to process audio for eventual use within SAW as a topic in public, no?
The things that can be gotten away with in PM can be easily break forum rules if we don't stick to the right reasons to use it, for instance sharing personal details like phone numbers or issuing warnings from mods.

I mean we talk about VSTs and VST wrappers and other software here, because this is the SAW community and investigating limitations and workflows is as important as using SAW.
I need to get back work anyway.
Peace, y'all

[UpTilDawn]

I also use Spectra and RX to process tracks for use in SAW on a regular basis. I find it extremely helpful to be able to have conversations about these tools with those people who use them in the SAW community. This would be nearly impossible to get from any other forum on the web today and I am truly grateful that this SAW forum exists and those who participate are so graciously giving with their thoughts and experiences - especially where third party software and its compatibility with SAW/SAC is concerned... whether used as an internally applied fx/tool, or as standalone assistant for processing/prepping tracks in SAW.

The help and insight is indispensable. I would feel like I was operating alone on an island without it sometimes.

[Todd R]

I also use Spectra and RX to process tracks for use in SAW on a regular basis. I find it extremely helpful to be able to have conversations about these tools with those people who use them in the SAW community. This would be nearly impossible to get from any other forum on the web today and I am truly grateful that this SAW forum exists and those who participate are so graciously giving with their thoughts and experiences - especially where third party software and its compatibility with SAW/SAC is concerned... whether used as an internally applied fx/tool, or as standalone assistant for processing/prepping tracks in SAW.

The help and insight is indispensable. I would feel like I was operating alone on an island without it sometimes.
Right on! I agree...in other forums, folks get funny about their DAW verse SS.

So, I found a workflow that is really effective at removing unwanted voices in a location mic.

On the original, unmixed copy of the audio in SL
I'm using the Selection Brush to select audio and remove the unwanted voices completely.
This takes multiple selections across all the harmonics and multiple deletes;
I change the brush size to smaller on the higher freqs...around 35px brush size on low freqs

then use the clone tool to fill in the deleted sections.
Clone tool takes some practice and the online vid explaining it was not helpful.
Obviously it depends upon the source material. In my case we are outside on location and there is plenty of "ambiance" to clone from.

That's for the shotgun.

The lav is a bit more of a challenge...filling in RF drop out on wireless has me stumped right now
and it's not as important as the shotgun mic stuff in this scene for me

anyway, just thought I'd share :-)

[UpTilDawn]

...
On the original, unmixed copy of the audio in SL
I'm using the Selection Brush to select audio and remove the unwanted voices completely.
This takes multiple selections across all the harmonics and multiple deletes;
I change the brush size to smaller on the higher freqs...around 35px brush size on low freqs

then use the clone tool to fill in the deleted sections.
Clone tool takes some practice and the online vid explaining it was not helpful.
Obviously it depends upon the source material. In my case we are outside on location and there is plenty of "ambiance" to clone from... :-)

Sounds an awful lot like what I've learned (and now forgotten) about editing images in photshop-like tools.
I especially was starting to dig into cloning to fill in gaps left by removing unwanted bits.

[Dave Labrecque]

Room tone, anyone?

[Todd R]

Room tone, anyone?
Listen, Dave,
obviously I have hours of "room tone" and record it on every project
I call it ambience or ambiance because there are as many field recordings as there are inside recordings.

but you are utterly missing the point
as have others

In my current film; the scene which I described earlier was a one-off,
un-rehearsed, un-scripted moment which turns out to be really funny in context.
you couldn't re-capture it if you tried
and there is crew chatter which the director wanted removed
I tried covering it using typical editing
it was not possible
with Spectral Layers editing, I've successfully fully removed the crew chatter

I'm not sure where this negativity is coming from? Steinberg hate? Sony disdain? I don't know.

Try a free trial and see what you are missing out on for yourself

There is a big learning curve tho; so you might try it for a few hours and decide it doesn't suit your philosophy or whatever
it's working great for me like Pro-Q3, or Acon Restoration Suite or other VSTs; but it isn't a VST

but, heck yeah, I have hours of room tone

and further, this film I'm working on was originally a 12 min short which has grown into a 90min feature (as I have said before).
Well, there were a lot of pretty pictures, but then we had to dip into audio which have crew chatter and other unwanted elements
covering all of that with "room tone" is old school thinking...we are using modern tools...alongside SAW

[Dave Labrecque]

Sorry. Not meant as hate or anything negative. I just was curious why room tone wasn't working for you. I guess I missed some stuff.

[jmh]

This has got me curious. On another thread, I described having room trouble with a few frequencies around the 100hz area on acoustic tracks where low G# or A on a guitar or bass might set off the nearby room mode (deploying a solution is still on the to-do list). Anyway, on tracks that I have already recorded could this software be utilized to strip the problem frequencies?

John

[Todd R]

This has got me curious. On another thread, I described having room trouble with a few frequencies around the 100hz area on acoustic tracks where low G# or A on a guitar or bass might set off the nearby room mode (deploying a solution is still on the to-do list). Anyway, on tracks that I have already recorded could this software be utilized to strip the problem frequencies?

John
John,
I was messing around with frequency draw and repair tools a bit yesterday and I didn't find them very useful...any frequencies or harmonics I drew or repaired sounded like a pure sine source. That doesn't mean I know how to use the tools, tho! I should think you could reduce the ringing freqs in a more forensic manner

I'm currently looking into correcting/ masking RF dropout when a radio mic travels to the maximum range and beyond. I'm not sure how to create a noiseprint, either, which I'd like to figure out...a workaround could be to comp the noise print onto the soundfile one is working on, I suppose. I'm sure there are other methodologies

[jmh]

John,
I was messing around with frequency draw and repair tools a bit yesterday and I didn't find them very useful...any frequencies or harmonics I drew or repaired sounded like a pure sine source.
That might not be a bad thing if it is able to zero in on a particular frequency because when the nodes ring, they are probably not in tune with the song - but the room. I've actually become fairly adept at taming these sounds once I realized how, why and where they were occurring (not necessarily on the track where you would expect them). I've overcome the problem well enough in the current batch of songs I'm working on, but I've got a few on the to-mix pile that I may investigate SL.

Most of the basic tracks recorded in the problematic room have not actually had the problem, as they have generally been line or DI and live drums. I'm not sure what makes the miced drum tracks okay, I suppose some combo of the kit is just in a better spot, the percussiveness is too chaotic to engage any particular room node, or the because drums are so loud, the corresponding low mic trim makes the room mostly inaudible. If there was a vocal at the same time, it would have been done in another room. Prior to figuring this out miced overdubs would be were the problems would show up where either the headphones bleed or the instrument itself would set things in motion.

[Carl G.]

there is crew chatter which the director wanted removed
I tried covering it using typical editing
it was not possible
with Spectral Layers editing, I've successfully fully removed the crew chatter



I use Spectral Layers 10 Pro - it's a great 'fixer' in many areas for Forensics, remixing, freq editing, etc. It is amazing.

But I always say.... "No DAW like SAW"! :)

[Todd R]

I use Spectral Layers 10 Pro - it's a great 'fixer' in many areas for Forensics, remixing, freq editing, etc. It is amazing.

But I always say.... "No DAW like SAW"! :)
Agreed!