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Arco
06-30-2005, 02:33 PM
Hi Bob,

Kontakt (and now Kontakt 2) just doesn't like SAW and MWS. I can get periods of OK operation but then seem to bog down:

Notes stuck on.
Notes abrubtly cut off (this happens mostly when I try to "build Mix to current hot track")
Notes just don't play.


Frustrating trying to get MIDI data to Audio. I move from one method to the next trying for a solid "perfromance" (no errors).

For example, right now I have violins2 loaded (nothing else) and I can't get a 4 measure passage once without an error. And, I just finished getting Violins1 (same passage) without a problem using the live recording technique (this time none of the passages will execute using "buildmix to current track" without an error)

{later} So now if I select the MIDI track instead of Solo it I can play without errors (no stuck notes).

OK, so it seems selecting the track (MWS) and recording it live to an MT audio track works fairly consistently. But this will not work with multiple tracks.

I can't seem to isolate the problem, that is, figure out why or what is causing the problem but it has been an issue since the beginning with Kontakt.

I can get faultless playing in FruityLoops5 but I don't like the way the samples sound as much so I'm back in SAW/MWS.

Any chance of getting this compatibility issue licked?

Many thanks for listening to my venting...

e

Mitch
06-30-2005, 03:10 PM
It's not just limited to Kontakt. I experience the same thing trying to fire my Fantom XR synth from midi tracks, BFD and other softsynths... Some notes "stick", some get written as "endless" notes, some dont track at all (no sound when the midi note passes). I've had to take several passes sometimes to render a midi track to audio, sometimes needing to punch in the audio and hope the midi notes will fire the VST or rack synth.

I think Bob is aware of some of the issues with MWS and I know he'll come up with a solution for these things....he always does !

AudioAstronomer
06-30-2005, 03:13 PM
Is it possible this is a disc issue? DFD in kontakt can be very, very heavy on your hard-disc. If writing to the same drive you're reading from, it can get messy.

I've never experienced this problem with other vsti's at all.

Neal Starrett
06-30-2005, 03:51 PM
Wow Arco, I just logged on to post weather Kontakt is ok in SS/MWS. I've been trying the demo and notice stuck notes also. This happens in Kompakt as well. I'm not so sure if it's a MWS issue. Users of other DAW's seem to be experiencing the same thing.
http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35879

I'm wondering if it's a polyphony issue.:(

niles

Alan Lastufka
06-30-2005, 03:55 PM
Niles,

BigBob is experiencing stuck notes on an instrument at Northernsounds where he is writing his own K2 script for the instrument. THis is far from the norm as most people can't even read the K2 scripting let alone program it.

I only used Kontakt with MWS demo and I never got any of the things you guys describe, but I again only used it with the demo so I can't be sure. I do most of my sequencing in Samplitude currently.

Anyway - I'm on the Kontakt beta team - if there is a bug I'll report it and have them look into it. I'll need your system specs and if applicable, steps to recreate the problem.

Neal Starrett
06-30-2005, 03:59 PM
My ignorance, sorry.:o

niles

Alan Lastufka
06-30-2005, 04:04 PM
No biggie Niles, just his situation is different from the one described above is all. :)

Bob L
06-30-2005, 04:22 PM
I use Kompakt and I have never experienced these problems... but in general I setup one patch at a time... compose... then process down as audio and go on to the next.

I have heard of problems with the MWS and Kontakt where multiple tracks feeding different patches seem to have some kind of crosstalk between controller information on one patch affecting the other... but I cannot duplicate this here yet.

This seems to go along with what you are describing, because when you select the track, only one patch plays at a time, and you say its ok.

You might try patching in a second and third Kontakt for other sounds and keep each plug doing only one sound... then see if the problem still occurs.

If you also can test Kompakt and give me a step by step setup to duplicate the problem, I will try to chase it down here.

I also wonder if you are using dual processors... because it has always been known that NI has had dual issues from day one all the way back to the B4 plugs... perhaps this is what you are running into.

Try forcing a single cpu boot with the /onecpu option in the boot.ini file... see if that affects the outcome.

Bob L

mako
06-30-2005, 04:27 PM
I've been having the same problem as Arco and was about to post on it today.
Yesterday I was trying to build-mix on a very simple 3 note piano part, bass and BFD drums. At the same point on every pass, it failed to trigger 2 hi-hat beats and a snare.
This happened on midi playback as well unless I began playback just before the problem area. If I went to a zoomed single track view, it would generally work fine.
I played around with changing the "note on" velocities, shortening notes to prevent overlap. Nothing I did helped. I could also see in the BFD view that these notes were not being triggered.
I tried MWS 1.5a and it gave the same problem.

I've also had the problem of stuck notes, particularly on a bass track played by Kontakt.

I'll do more testing today.

Thanks

mako

Update - Just saw your post Bob. This is happening on both my m/c's - 32 and 64 bit Athlon single processor.

Do you have BFD to test with? If so I'll send you the edl.

Bob L
06-30-2005, 04:39 PM
No I don't have BFD... perhaps it is one of the plugs that does not like the long midi messages I send in the interest of higher performance... try setting the Short Midi Msg compatability option on for that midi virtual port and see if that has any affect. This option is in the Options Menu of the MWS.

Bob L

mako
06-30-2005, 05:12 PM
Thanks Bob - just tried what you suggested with no improvement.
Also tried Hypercanvas on the drum track and all works fine so it seems the MWS midi message is OK.

Hmmmm - I'll keep looking.

Thanks

mako

trock
06-30-2005, 06:01 PM
Since i just bought MWS this really interests me. i am going to get Studio B and was looking at Kompakt for now. is there any other player that seems to work better??

I will be using it very simply, probably 1 track at a time but i think i would like to have my drums with say 6 tracks of MIDI, my bass with 1 track, and possibly strings on 1 or 2 all in MWS and then mix my audio tracks and midi down together??

i used to sort of do this with reason and cubase??

am i anywhere close to being right in my thought process??

thanks

Arco
06-30-2005, 06:56 PM
Floops plays the same midi file without these errors. I have used Floops when necessary but as I mentioned in my post, MWS plays the samples better..not sure why..less choppy. Also I'm deep into MWS and the way things work here and less into Floops for straight MIDI sequencing work. In loop-based stuff it really shines.

I just feel cheated out using SAW the way I know it can be used--fast moving fun, rather than this track-by-track rendering.

...hoping...


e

AudioAstronomer
06-30-2005, 07:06 PM
So you're using flstudio to feed the midi into kontakt and it works fine?

Arco
06-30-2005, 07:12 PM
Yes. I load Kontakt as a VSTi in Floops and drive it using a mess of MIDI tracks imported from my SAW session. They play without flaws..not one.
But the overall quality isn't as good. Perhaps it's something I could figure out if I spent more time with Floops but the samples just don't sound as realistic--they have a clumsy vibe.

AudioAstronomer
06-30-2005, 07:17 PM
I cant get it to replicate here at all with kontakt 1.5.3, can you give more details on setup?

mako
06-30-2005, 09:13 PM
I exported the midi file I was working on - loaded it into Cubase SX2 - set parameters the same. Worked fine. Went back to Athlon 64 - same problem - same place with BFD.
Tried the same setup on my 32 bit Athlon - worked fine.
I must point out though that this is the machine I've used most in the past couple of weeks and the one exhibiting a lot of stuck notes and non triggering notes with Kontakt, Wavestation and SampleTank.

Thanks

mako

Arco
07-01-2005, 08:37 AM
I cant get it to replicate here at all with kontakt 1.5.3, can you give more details on setup?


for me it's not too complex:

pretty much any multi-track MIDI score will initiate the problem.This time I was working with a mix of instruments like Dan Dean brass (horns,trumpets, trombones together) or Sonic Implant Strings (violins,celli,bassi loaded together). Those are farily large but smaller size instruments like the Kontakt2 Harp and Celesta also had problems.

I can include the midi or edl file i was working with..let me know.

There are no problems with hardware synths.

Bob L
07-01-2005, 10:26 AM
And the puzzle is also that there is no problem with HyperCanvas and other VST synths... so something mysterious is going on with the way NI handles some controller information on multiple channels at once that MWS is not handling in the same way.

Did you try separating the different instruments to different Kontakt plugs... one instrument per plug... multiple plugs... I believe that will fix the problem... and perhaps there may be a useful clue in there somewhere if it does.

Bob L

Lance
07-01-2005, 10:37 AM
Bob;

I've been experiencing stuck notes quite frequently and it's been a real source of frustration.

With my situation, I have a midi controller going to midi in on my creamware card. Midi in is routed to MWS. MWS Midi thru is routed back out to a creamware synth. I play a note, the synth sounds, MWS records that note when I'm in record.

Now, I go to record a track. put MWS in record, and play down the whole track. The synth plays perfectly as I do the part. I stop MWS record.

When I look at the track, I have all sorts of stuck notes. An interesting thing is that often it's the same note down the track, and it looks like MWS is not tracking the on/offs as played. Everything will be fine for several measures, sometimes half the song, then there is the first occurance of a stuck note, with the duration lasting until the next occurance of the note, whereupon, I have a note off, then the note on at the place where I played it. But again, the duration and consequently the note off, lasts until the next note on. This continues until the end of the track, whereupon, I end up with a infinite note on. Very strange.

Lance

AudioAstronomer
07-01-2005, 10:38 AM
OK, I have kontakt 2 in the mail, will be here tommorow...

Arco, can you send me your mws EDL so I can give it a try tommorow evening?

Mitch
07-01-2005, 12:03 PM
This "stuck note" thing, and notes not firing, occurs in most everything I've used in MWS. Started with the DR880 Roland drum machine, then with BFD, EWQL Gold Orchestra (Kompakt), Roland Fantom XR hard synth.... this problem does NOT lie with a specific softsynth or hardware unit IMHO. There's too many of us having the same issues for it to be a quirky PC config either you'd think eh ?

I live with it for now, but am hopeful for a solution sometime in a future update, or a reason why it's my hardware or setup that's causing it ?

AudioAstronomer
07-01-2005, 12:07 PM
Ive been using MWS 2 hours a day at least for the last 3 months or so and havent had this problem a single time....

Mitch, if you can send me an mws edl that does this I would like to test it here. I think I have your phone number too, but if you could leave it at my email and good times to talk. I think with a collective effort here we can figure this out.

As a side note, Ive heard the exact same complaints from cubase/nuendo, tracktion and samplitude users over the last year. Could it be a problem with audio interfaces or some windows midi stuff?

Lance
07-01-2005, 12:15 PM
Robert;

I don't think it's a hardware issue. When I'm recording, I'm playing from Midi In to Midi out, with MWS recording in between. I listen to what I play as I play it and it all sounds correct. However, the data in MWS doesn't look right, nor does it sound the same afterwards.

The point being that when I'm playing the part live, I have no problems.

It is interesting though, now that I think about it, I do have some tracks where I was able to record without any problem whatsoever.

In fact, the problem might lie with staccato notes, because that's where I think I get the most problems. I didn't get any problems with Bass or Piano parts where the notes were longer. But I definitely do with percussive parts.

Could be a clue.

Lance

Mitch
07-01-2005, 12:25 PM
Robert, when this first happend (DR880) I posted it and sent you the edl and MWS files.... you examined it and said "wow" must be a Roland quirk (or something to that effect)....

For me, this is a RANDOM occurance. It does not happen on the same notes all the time. One time, I'll play the midi track and the notes fire. Another time I play, they dont ? Sometimes, I'll get one of the "endless" notes, and other times I wont.... Dont know what the differences are (none that I'm aware of) in the process each time..... So looking at a edl might not do much good, but sure, I'll send one to you again.

AudioAstronomer
07-01-2005, 12:39 PM
Im just looking for any possible way I can duplicate this.. any suggestions are welcome. What interfaces, vsts, version of mws etc...

There's gotta be something that's making this happen for you guys and not me... With a setup similiar to arco's, I was able to get ONE note to not play today (didnt sent note on, no matter where I put it). But that was it... I closed saw and reopened and it worked fine :mad:

So, ideas? Im willing to do as much as it takes to get this one figured out if it's possible.

Bob L
07-01-2005, 01:22 PM
I'm sure ready for any real clues to chase down the problem if its in the MWS...

I have not experienced the problem here either, but I am currently not spending hours recording midi performances in my current projects.

I have put a lot of code in the MWS to try to avoid stuck notes when you cut and edit and punch out of record while sustaining notes... apparently there is one common issue that I'm missing.

I wonder if it could have something to do with the particular midi keyboards that may be sending extra controller info or if they have active sensing turned on and are sending the constant active sensing stream of data that may be causing the problems of missed data. See if your keyboard allows you to turn OFF Active sensing... that is a constant stream of data that bogs down the midi port and Windows bigtime.

It truly sounds to me like its a glitched data stream... the note offs are just getting glitched like audio glitches with the wrong buffer settings or something similar.

I'm keeping my eyes open for some hint of a clue to what is causing the missed data.

I will continue to look at the recording code in the MWS... but I must be honest... placing the data in the buffer comes from Windows hardware function calls... I really believe I am handling the data correctly... my guess is that something is glitching the functions that pass the data up to me.

Bob L

MMP
07-01-2005, 02:04 PM
I just spent some time trying to get MWS to fail and did after four tracks.

Here is what I found out.....

I had three notes lock up. Every instance of those three notes latched. I selected all notes on that track to be deleted, and all were removed except for (surprise, surprise) an instance of the stuck notes way down the timeline where I wasn't recording. These endless notes cannot be deleted.

It seems like a timestamp error on only certain values to me.

Regards,

MM

Carey Langille
07-01-2005, 02:09 PM
Bob, I have had some issues with MWS this week. I had a musician in laying tracks and i was recording the midi tracks.. All of a sudden, BAM! about 20 notes go doen at once on the screen and stick down... OUCH, I rebooted and tried it again.. Once again, the keyboard played something that caused awild glitch to happen. I save the EDL's so you can see them if you think it will help decipher what may be happening.... 3 x 128 using vsti piano.... Also, Stuck notes seem to happen IF you have ANY keys down OR your Sustain Pedel on when you stop SAWSTUDIO.. It doesnt seem to always clear this situation. On the Pos side. I d o have to say, it was a classical piano player, she was skeptical about the midi playback, but she says it felt exactly like her performance ( Till the HUGE glitch!)....

Bob L
07-01-2005, 06:47 PM
Well I'm always interested in looking, but an edl will probably not tell me what caused the note dump or the missing note off... apparently somehow the recording buffers are getting messed with under certain conditions.

Michael... stuck notes can usually be cleared by just marking a little bit around the start of the note, then pressing delete.

I'm on it... we'll see what I can find for this next update coming soon.

Bob L

Arco
07-01-2005, 07:39 PM
I will continue to look at the recording code in the MWS... but I must be honest... placing the data in the buffer comes from Windows hardware function calls... I really believe I am handling the data correctly... my guess is that something is glitching the functions that pass the data up to me.

Bob L


One clarification: anything I record will play fine if directed to a hardware synth. It's when it is directed to a VSTi that the problems begin. So, at least here, there doesn't seem to be a recording issue, unless it's some MIDI data not readily visible. Also i'm mostly a hunt and peck keyboardist so there's not exactly a flood of MIDI data going into MWS when I play in a part. :rolleyes:

Hardware Synth= rock solid
Software Synth= some heartache

Also: am I the only one with notes getting abruptly shut down?

Arco
07-01-2005, 07:53 PM
Just tried loading individual plugins for each track..only two and immediately had the same stuck-on note problem. I loaded one Kontakt2 on Port3 and the other on Port4.

...hard one to figure.


e

MMP
07-01-2005, 08:12 PM
These notes are down the timeline way beyond where any recording had taken place. They will not delete no matter how I try to select them.

MM




Michael... stuck notes can usually be cleared by just marking a little bit around the start of the note, then pressing delete.

Bob L

Carey Langille
07-01-2005, 08:54 PM
Hey Michael, i too have these kind of notes that i cannot delete no matter what i do. I have to close down and restart to clear them.... Sounds like an interesting one...

Ludwig
07-02-2005, 02:27 AM
I also have problems with MWS and softsynths. Sometimes, notes are just not playing through virtual midi ports.
I solved the problem by sending the MWS tracks to a real (hardware) midi port and looping this port to the softsynth track in the MT. The same MWS track then plays back perfectly, so I think it is a problem of the internal routing throuth virtual midi ports.
I had this problem with different softsynths, kontakt, kompakt, GPO.

kent
07-02-2005, 06:42 AM
I also have problems with MWS and softsynths. Sometimes, notes are just not playing through virtual midi ports.
I solved the problem by sending the MWS tracks to a real (hardware) midi port and looping this port to the softsynth track in the MT. The same MWS track then plays back perfectly, so I think it is a problem of the internal routing throuth virtual midi ports.
I had this problem with different softsynths, kontakt, kompakt, GPO.Interesting Ludwig. I had a similar solution early February this year; from:http://www.sawstudiouser.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1304

I record the Midi data through a REAL midi port. I want it to trigger an actual synth.. If you loop and midi out to a midi in, this WILL work fine too... Hope this helps...That thread was about making pre-recoreded audio pulses (drums) on the Multi-track generate MIDI triggers, and then record these triggers in MWS. I got that working fine, but I remember never being happy with the MWS virtual ports for softsynths then, so I never jumped in past the DEMO. I was just on the cusp of getting MWS after the 4th because of some of the interesting features mentioned recently (and also audioastronomer says he never has a problem with MWS). Well several here now describe the same symptoms I remember back in February, so I'd better hold off. FWIW, I've used MANY other software titles in the industry that did NOT exhibit THIS problem. They did have a slew of other problems that made one want to slap the developers though ;) MWS looks great, and I wouldn't want to go anywhere else to compliment SS with my MIDI work, but if I jump in before softsynths work at least acceptably well then I'll wind up regreting the purchase and lowering my vibe. The definition of Expectations, premeditated resentments.
Thanks Ludwig
Kent

Bob L
07-02-2005, 10:20 AM
You fail to notice that the multiple synths you have trouble with are all NI products... the problem does not seem to exist with many other company's VST synths and the MWS.

As was mentioned earlier in this same thread... the session fails with Kontakt but plays perfect with HyperCanvas.

The issue is not so clear cut... but it does seem that most all of the NI products use the same basic engine processing routines... my guess is that there is a compatibility issue there... other synths do not seem to exhibit the problem.

Bob L

Arco
07-02-2005, 10:39 AM
Thankyou Ludwig! This works flawlessly...so easy. Highly suggested to relieve Kontakt agita.


I also have problems with MWS and softsynths. Sometimes, notes are just not playing through virtual midi ports.
I solved the problem by sending the MWS tracks to a real (hardware) midi port and looping this port to the softsynth track in the MT. The same MWS track then plays back perfectly, so I think it is a problem of the internal routing throuth virtual midi ports.
I had this problem with different softsynths, kontakt, kompakt, GPO.

Carey Langille
07-02-2005, 10:55 AM
It was actually Hyper canvas Piano i was using and i also tried prosound piano and it happened there too.. It doesnt appear to be just a NI problem here.

Bob L
07-02-2005, 02:48 PM
Well, I'd sure like to have some concrete examples so I can chase it down... it really irritates me that so many seem to be having problems and I can not duplicate them and think everything is stable and performing perfectly.

I would love to find out what it is... is it MWS code... SAW code... or some setting in Windows that makes this happen?

Can someone send me and edl and edl-mws file that creates the skipped note problem and let me see if I can duplicate it on my rig.

Bob L

Carey Langille
07-02-2005, 10:53 PM
Hi Bob, I just sent off some files that contain the glitch. They should be in the tech@sawstudio.com mailbox now! Hope it tells you something...:confused:

Bob L
07-03-2005, 09:21 AM
Thanks, I'll check them out today.

Bob L

Bob L
07-03-2005, 04:28 PM
Ok, we seem to be dealing with two separate problems here...

One concerns stuck notes during a midi performance from a midi keyboard... the other concerns stuck and missing note triggers when playing back through Kontakt or Kompakt.

Carey's files demonstrate an amazing weirdness that happened to him during tracking a midi performance on a keyboard... thanks for sending the files... although I'm not quite sure what would have caused such an array of stuck notes... some klind of buffer glitch somewhere in the loop... I'm still working on it.

Erik sent me a midi file that gives him grief when playing back in Kontakt. The file looks perfect on its own... when played thru Kontakt or Kompakt or the included Kontakt player that comes with certain sample libraries, certain notes will mis-trigger and others will stick on... I have been able to duplicate this.

What is extremely weird is that the exact same file will work perfectly for me in Edirol's Hypercanvas, Orchestral and other VST synths... the problem seems to be linked to the NI playback engine, and perhaps other VST synth engines that I don't have to test, that may work similar to NI's engine.

Another interesting thing is the fact that start playback position is critical to cause the problem... move the start position 1 tick one way or the other and everything plays fine at the same point of the file that messes up otherwise.

Track note trigger combinations also are important to cause the problem... playing any track by itself (selected and blackened) works fine... add another track with a certain note trigger at a critcal position and the first track looses its note-offs and sticks, or misses a note-on trigger and skips.

This one definitely has me baffled at the moment... but thanks to all for helping to chase it down... I'm confident I will find a way around what the NI engine does not like that MWS does when it sends the data.

Again, note that routing the data thru midi hardware ports and looping back into the plugin... seems to work perfect.

Bob L

Bob L
07-03-2005, 05:35 PM
I just sent an update beta of the MWS to Erik and am waiting for an answer as to whether this fixes his session problems with Kontakt... I am hopefull. :)

Next I will be working on ideas to fix Carey's stuck notes.

Bob L

Arco
07-03-2005, 06:02 PM
I just sent an update beta of the MWS to Erik and am waiting for an answer as to whether this fixes his session problems with Kontakt... I am hopefull. :)

Next I will be working on ideas to fix Carey's stuck notes.

Bob L


[In case Bob is out at dinner...]

The fix indeed does the job...Kontakt is rockin' my world. Now, real world work will be the essential test. But, I could not get the problems I had before to come back...solid performance no matter what i tried: Build Mix, Record Live, whatever..solid! :p

Awesome to have this kind of support. I hope other Kontakt users will confirm my finidings.

best,

e

Bob L
07-03-2005, 06:25 PM
Good news indeed... now I'll get it ready for a quick maintenance release and we'll see if others have similar positive results. :)

Interesting how other plugs had no trouble with the data stream but the NI engine forces me to pack the data in an increasing sequential format.

Bob L

Mitch
07-03-2005, 06:35 PM
...WOW! I'm amazed at the speed you are able to track down and fix these issues Bob ! Truely amazed ! ...... This is great news. Cant wait for that maint. MWS release.

Excellence abounds !

Bob L
07-03-2005, 06:56 PM
Usually, once I can duplicate the problem, solving it is not too far behind... the real issue is trying to duplicate some of things that the users run into... it gets very hard to chase down whether the problem is a Windows setting... a driver issue, or someone else's code... or my code... obviously, if I can modify my code and create a solution, its a much faster fix than trying to get many of these large companies to come out with an update. :)

Bob L

Mitch
07-03-2005, 07:45 PM
...well, I'm still amazed and it's worth a "hot-diggity-dam" and three of these :D :D :D

AudioAstronomer
07-07-2005, 09:35 PM
Hrm. Now that I finally have kontakt 2 in my dirty little paws... latest 3.9g and MWSc...

getting notes not playing.

mako
07-07-2005, 11:49 PM
Hrm. Now that I finally have kontakt 2 in my dirty little paws... latest 3.9g and MWSc...

getting notes not playing.

Darn - same here with BFD 1-0-10-21 (latest) yet the problem notes play fine with Hypercanvas.

mako

Bob L
07-08-2005, 02:43 AM
Make sure you got the MWS 1.5c... the Kontakt fix was in there.

Double check your about info from the MWS Info menu... make sure it says 1.5c.

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
07-08-2005, 09:35 AM
I double checked.

With 1.5b, the notes dont play period. with 1.5c the same notes just get cut off early.

Bob L
07-10-2005, 07:46 AM
Is this problem with Kontakt or BFD?

Bob L