No Session Save Prompt pre-Trim Session

[Dave Labrecque]

Bob,

Just noticed. My original session ended up empty because I'd never saved the session prior to trimming. It didn't matter this time, but there may be other times... :)

Also... I think it would streamline the trim process a bit if the "include all layers?" prompt only came up if there are additional layer(s) in use beyond the top layer, since it's otherwise a moot point. Your thoughts?

[Ian Alexander]

You know, if you're not careful, Bob's going to start marketing his software as Dave-Proof. :D

[Dave Labrecque]

You know, if you're not careful, Bob's going to start marketing his software as Dave-Proof. :D

I know I'm a little anal. OK, a lot anal. :) But I really think smoothing out all the bumps makes for a way better overall experience -- especially for us power users. Don't ask me how I find these things. I swear I'm not looking for 'em! ;)

[Bob L]

Dave... you should never be working on a non-saved session. :) Save it as you start the session... comes in handy for sure.

The idea about the layer prompt may be useful... let me consider it.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave... you should never be working on a non-saved session. :) Save it as you start the session... comes in handy for sure.

Gawd, I knew you'd slap me on the wrist like that. ;)

Not to worry, I don't blame anyone but me for not saving the session. Just trying to continue to improve our beloved workhorse (as always).

I was hoping we could look past my poor engineering habits and put a save prompt in where you probably intended it to be. :) OK, say I saved my session like a good engineer over three hours of work and then didn't save it for the last couple operations prior to the trim. Yeah, I could probably get by with restoring from the undo history, but, I mean, what are any save prompts for? Cut me some slack, Jack. ;)

C'mon, I've had a hard day... :p

[Mark Stebbeds]

Dave... you should never be working on a non-saved session. :) Save it as you start the session... comes in handy for sure.

Bob L

FWIW, both Nuendo and Pro Tools have auto-save functions with user selectable options, and they have "saved" my butt (and my wallet) many times.

Hey, we're only human, and sometimes we hope the machines are smarter than we are.

Mark

[Dave Labrecque]

Hey, we're only human, and sometimes we hope the machines are smarter than we are.

Sometimes they ARE smarter than we are. Thankfully.

SAW's 'auto save' is the auto undo stuff. You can open the undo history and go back to the future. It's saved my butt more than a few times. :)

[Mark Stebbeds]

Sometimes they ARE smarter than we are. Thankfully.

SAW's 'auto save' is the auto undo stuff. You can open the undo history and go back to the future. It's saved my butt more than a few times. :)

But not this time because you didn't save? What's up with that?

Undo history and auto save serve two different purposes.

As a matter of fact, I just increased the number of "undos" available in SS as a test, and it cleared the undo list without warning. That sucks.

Mark

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Mark,


Undo history and auto save serve two different purposes.

In SS they are used either to create undo files and to serve as an automatic back up file of your entire EDL. Every edit generates an undo file that can be used as an undo or as a "rescue" edl file, depending on your need.


As a matter of fact, I just increased the number of "undos" available in SS as a test, and it cleared the undo list without warning. That sucks.

I've also experience this. I agree that there should be a warning message for this.

Best regards,

[UpTilDawn]

Careful Carlos. Remember that EVERY edit does not automaitcally produce an undo file. In fact, I read the original post to say that Dave began and finished recording without saving the edl at all. Trimming the session created a new edl that WAS saved, but the original was closed in the trimming process without saving.

Good news for Dave is that the original wav files and their wpds should still be in whatever folder they were dumped to when he originally began recording, so he could potentially recover these by creating a new edl and importing the wav files into it. Easy to do if he creates and saves the edl to the same folder as the wav files are already in.

If the recording included a lot of false attempts with the retakes simply recorded over the originals, the wav files will take some editing to get all adjacent tracks lined up again since the retakes will all be sequential. Of course this wouldn't be the case if the retakes were done using the retake buttons.

The original wav files should have ended up in whatever folder Dave has set in his filepath setup.

That is, assuming I read the first post correctly. :D :rolleyes:

DanT

[Bob L]

Correct... every change is not tracked that would produce an insane load on the system... so... use the Snapshot feature (*) or simply update the session along the way....

It really is a very simple procedure... auto backups along the way in a background timed fashion have gotten me in trouble many times in other software... it is not my favorite way of working... if I can... I find myself always shutting that feature off in preferences if the program allows it.

I say get in the habit of saving your work everytime you make an adjustment or two that you like... it takes a fraction of a second in the SAWStudio environemnt.

As I said... I'll look into the possibility of more prompts at various points in the code... but it then borders on getting in the way of efficient workflow if everything is always prompted and dialog boxed... this is something I try to avoid... there is such a thing as responsible operator behavior as well. :)

Bob L

[Mark Stebbeds]

... auto backups along the way in a background timed fashion have gotten me in trouble many times in other software... it is not my favorite way of working... if I can... I find myself always shutting that feature off in preferences if the program allows it.

This statement has piqued my interest. How could an "auto save" gotten you in trouble "many times"? Different apps handle it different ways, and I am certainly familiar with a couple of them, but they all operate in the background, and yea, I suppose they take up a few CPU cycles. Which program gave you a problem?

SS "edl undo" feature was not able to save Dave's work. In my efforts to better understand the SS "edl undo", I lost my work by simply changing the number of "undos". That's two sessions lost in as many attempts.

In both cases, a scheduled "auto save" would have, well, "saved" our work without interferring with our work flow.

Mark

[Pedro Itriago]

It has also happenend, mainly in word processors (not with audio or video thank god because if there's an auto save, I disable it). I do and edit to a document or make a reformat for a moment just to see if the change is good or not and be it that I didn't like it or it patially destroyed the document's form when, by Murphy's Law autosave kicks in. I hate it when it happens

[Bob L]

Yes... I do not like my current session being overwritten without me doing it intentionally... this feature has messed up documents in different word processors that I have used when I might be experimenting with some changes and not ready to save in the current state when the auto save kicked in and overwrote my original document.

The edl-undo design in SAWStudio is not flawless either, but it never messes with your current document... and in Dave's case, he did say that it saved his work and allowed him to restore... but I do not use the edl-undo everytime you touch any control in the interface... it actually places too much of a load on the system for my taste when you are working fast and doing many mix changes... I decided to leave it up to the user to decide when to save the session or an undo along the way... there are many options for doing so and saving yourself from disaster.

The edl-undo does have the nice feature that it saves to disk, rather than ram... and can definitely get you back pretty close to where you were after a hard crash when the entire system goes down for whatever reason... since the last undo was saved to disk, you can reboot and use the Recover Last undo option... so there are definitely some advantages.

Bob L

[Mark Stebbeds]

Yes... I do not like my current session being overwritten without me doing it intentionally... this feature has messed up documents in different word processors that I have used when I might be experimenting with some changes and not ready to save in the current state when the auto save kicked in and overwrote my original document.

The edl-undo design in SAWStudio is not flawless either, but it never messes with your current document... and in Dave's case, he did say that it saved his work and allowed him to restore...<snip>

... since the last undo was saved to disk, you can reboot and use the Recover Last undo option... so there are definitely some advantages.

Bob L

I guess I misunderstood Dave's issue as I thought he was clear that he could not recover using "edl undo history". In my case, my work was definetly gone forever.

Three points...if edl undo can get you back, then it can get you back after auto save overwrites/updates your session file.

FWIW, Pro Tools does not "overwrite" anything, but creates "auto backup" files in a seperate folder. Your main session file can ONLY be overwritten manually, but you can go back in time (user defineable, I use 5 minutes) to open any number of backups, and save over your session file, only if you choose to.

If you are making a conscious decision to "experiment with some changes", then it's easy (and typical) to make a conscious decision to "save as" another file name. That's pretty common practice. It is the unconscious failure to save that is the problem, under times of stress, preoccupation, heck, the damn phone ringing at the least convenient time.

I certainly see many advantages to the EDL undo feature and not suggesting auto save is "better", but I also see opportunity to loose work, and it just happened to me.

Mark

[Dave Labrecque]

But not this time because you didn't save? What's up with that?

I'm pretty sure it would've saved my butt this time, too, if I'd needed it to. As it happened, I didn't need the original session. The trimmed session was fine for my purposes (just a safety backup of an ISDN session where this end was talent, other end was recording/editing). Because I didn't need it, it didn't even occur to me to go to the undo file; that idea usually hits me after I hit a 'level orange' panic.


Undo history and auto save serve two different purposes.

By intent of design purpose, yes. Seems to me, though, that they're functionally equivalent. Or, better said, that the undo approach can serve the same purpose, as it seems to with SAW (for the most part -- some activities, like fader moves, don't create an undo level -- maybe this is what you mean?).


As a matter of fact, I just increased the number of "undos" available in SS as a test, and it cleared the undo list without warning. That sucks.

That's a drag. :(

[MMP]

My guess is that the undo files themselves are still on the drive.

MM

[/QUOTE] As a matter of fact, I just increased the number of "undos" available in SS as a test, and it cleared the undo list without warning. That sucks.[/QUOTE]

That's a drag. :([/QUOTE]

[Bob L]

The undo files are still on the drive... but unfortunately, the list reference depends on a round-robbin loop fixed to the size of the undo number value... the code curretly needs to reset this loop count and start over when the value is changed.

Perhaps I can rethink the way this is handled.

Mark, the current edl undo method sounds similar to PT auto save in that it does not overwrite your working session. In reality, almost every edit operation and automation writing operation will create a new undo file anyway... in most cases much more often than the 5 min auto save would.

It could possibly be an added benefit if you are spending hours doing just mix adjustments and no edits... perhaps I can add an auto snapshot operation that would create a new snapshot undo file every x mins... this would then give yet another level of protection.

But I still say... saving your work along the way is the best solution overall... and as you mention... creating SAVE AS sessions along the way... again... this falls under the category of the operator working responsibly.

Bob L

[Mark Stebbeds]

T.. again... this falls under the category of the operator working responsibly.

Bob L

We'll have none of that!

Mark

[Dave Labrecque]

SS "edl undo" feature was not able to save Dave's work.

Mark,

The undos would've saved my work fine if I'd needed it. In this case the session was not important to me; the trimmed session was all I needed. I was only trying to point out a seemingly logical place for a save session prompt; most, if not all, other scenarios in which the user is departing from the current session bring up this prompt (if there have been changes since the last save). I'd thought it was part of the design philosophy and simply an oversight in the development.

[Dave Labrecque]

I certainly see many advantages to the EDL undo feature and not suggesting auto save is "better", but I also see opportunity to loose work, and it just happened to me.

Seems like a simple warning in the undo layers dialog -- or a prompt before execution -- would fix your problem, Mark, no?

There goes Dave with another prompt suggestion. D'oh! ;)

Interesting -- I was thinking that I had seen such a warning in that dialog in the past. I checked SAW Pro and there it is!

[Sean McCoy]

Let's not forget that SAW does create "untitled" undo files even for unsaved EDL's. In Dave's case, of course, this wouldn't have helped because he trimmed and thereby altered the audio files. But those "untitled" undo files are still somewhere.

[Mark Stebbeds]

Seems like a simple warning in the undo layers dialog -- or a prompt before execution -- would fix your problem, Mark, no?


Perhaps. With an auto save, therewouldn't have been a problem in the first place, in my case.

In the case of loosing edls when changing the number of levels...sounds like a bug to me.

Mark

[Dave Labrecque]

Let's not forget that SAW does create "untitled" undo files even for unsaved EDL's. In Dave's case, of course, this wouldn't have helped because he trimmed and thereby altered the audio files. But those "untitled" undo files are still somewhere.

Poor Dave. Let us all pray for Dave. Or should I move this to the 'religion thread'? :p

Actually, Sean, if I'd needed the backup, I think those pre-save auto undo files to which you astutely allude would've worked for me just fine. The trim function doesn't alter any files. It creates new ones. :)

Thanks be to Bob,

[Dave Labrecque]

Mark,

If I understand right, Bob's hesitation at implementing a "classic" auto-save is that it grabs processor time when you're in the middle of editing or playing back or at some equally annoying time. At least that's my fear. That's why I've turned such things off in word processors. I know that it'd push me over the edge in certain intense editing situations if I suddenly didn't have control over what I was doing, even if only for a second or two -- every 5 minutes (or whatever).

Then again, I'm a little nuts to begin with. But how could you have known that?

Who knows? Bob sounded like he's considering it. Maybe processors have reached the point where it would cause only a minor CPU/harddisk drain?

[Bob L]

I don't think there would be a problem... I may create an auto snapshot function at some time interval, but would only write if the system is idle after the timeout... if you have just done an edit and the undo was created anyway, I would skip it... so my routine would work a little differently than an auto save every 5 mins or whatever.

We'll see how it goes... it may be useful and save somebody's butt in certain instances.

I must say though, that in all the years of SAWStudio, and all the thousands of hours I have spent working in it... I have never really suffered any major data loss in SAWStudio, except where a harddrive went down.

But when I do major projects, I always update the session every few minutes myself... definitely before some adjustment experiments or after some change that I like... immediate update... that's just how I've always worked. And I also find myself creating session backups with the Save Copy As command on a different physical drive as I work... and I name them with an incrementing number attached so I have many chances to salvage things if something does ever go drastically wrong.

Bob L

[Sean McCoy]

The trim function doesn't alter any files. It creates new ones. :)Thanks be to Bob,
Of course you're right. My addled brain was lumping the normal post-trim manual deleting of the original files in with the process. Shame on me!

[Dave Labrecque]

Of course you're right. My addled brain was lumping the normal post-trim manual deleting of the original files in with the process. Shame on me!

Sean,

Sounds like your mind is evolving and merging with SAW's functionality. You're becoming a cyborg. Or is it... SAWborg? :p

[Mark Stebbeds]

Mark,

If I understand right, Bob's hesitation at implementing a "classic" auto-save is that it grabs processor time when you're in the middle of editing or playing back or at some equally annoying time. At least that's my fear.

I'm don't think it has to be that way. At least I don't observe "pause" in other DAW apps that have it.

I'm not sure if the auto save is necessary after hearing Bob's explanation. I lost my edits while changing the number of "undo history list" levels without saving. Apparently he found a couple of holes for opportunity to loose something, so I guess he thinks it wouldn't hurt.

To quote a bass player I know...."if it's worth doing, it's worth over doing".

He also said to the rookie client after he was a few minutes late for a session because the client directed him to the wrong recording studio..."I'll make it up to you when you call me again next year"

Mark

Mark

[mako]

I vote NO to autosave - I always used to have it turned off in other apps.

Control S works well for me.

mako

[Dave Labrecque]

I vote NO to autosave - I always used to have it turned off in other apps.

Control S works well for me.

mako

Auto-Save vs Auto-Slave. You decide. :p

[Mark Stebbeds]

I vote NO to autosave - I always used to have it turned off in other apps.


So if it appears in SS, you can still turn it off.

mark

[Carl G.]

I vote NO to autosave - I always used to have it turned off in other apps.

Control S works well for me.

mako
It always has here too.
I S T R O N G L Y vote "NO Autosave!"

[Mark Stebbeds]

It always has here too.
I S T R O N G L Y vote "NO Autosave!"

But if you can turn it off in "preferences" or whatever, why would be opposed to someone else using it?

I hear the concerns of that "pause" that happens in generic auto save routines like word processors, but in audio apps it is more sophisticated, and invisible. In one app I'm familiar with, it saves into a seperate folder, and does not write over "manual" save. You never even know it's there until you need it.

EDL undo is an excellent tool, but there may opportunites for data loss if I understand correctly.

mark

[mikebuzz]

This brings up an interesting point , I run 2 SATA drives in a mirrored Raid configuration , if I delete a file on the drive will it also delete the file on the mirroed drive ??? ( most likely yes !! )

What other configurations are there that will prevent this ???

OK I just found that info it will delete files from both drives.

I have a FW external drive for backups


Later
Buzz

PS: I say provide it as an option if you dont want it turn it off ( or default to off in the first place )

[Dave Labrecque]

Mark,

I wonder if auto save would create any better of a safety net. The undo layering's limitation is that some of the subtler actions (like fader moves) don't create an undo layer, so you can often lose an operation or two. But autosave only is as good as the last time it auto saved. Wouldn't that be less-useful on the average? Unless it kicked in several times a minute?

[Mark Stebbeds]

Mark,

I wonder if auto save would create any better of a safety net. The undo layering's limitation is that some of the subtler actions (like fader moves) don't create an undo layer, so you can often lose an operation or two. But autosave only is as good as the last time it auto saved. Wouldn't that be less-useful on the average? Unless it kicked in several times a minute?

Whatever....I just jumped in because I lost my edits trying to change the number of layers in the undo list, trying to figure out your problem.

My edits are still gone, and so is the undo edl.

You tell me.

Mark

[Ian Alexander]

I'm okay with auto-save, if it can be turned off, maybe even default that way. And perhaps a warning before you change the number of undos: "Save and close the current session before using this option."

[AudioAstronomer]

Id love to have autosave so I can turn it off then get pissed when I lose a session and wonder why the freak I turned it off in the first place. :D

Autosave is a priority over performance leaks for me. A glitch means a redone track or me editing later. A missed save could easily mean 4 hours of work totally bombed.

Very often, when getting into the nitty gritty, saving is the last thing on your mind. Case in point, im working on an album (of mine) and we worked for 7 hours and got a good 30 tracks nailed. And in my horror I realized we hadnt saved AT ALL and all my undo's were going to a networked drive from something I had setup earlier.

The kicker... as I reached for the keyboard to ctrl-s, the power went out. I kid you not, 3 witnesses here too. Ah well. Im sure Id have turned off autosave anyways *shrug*. Life goes on, making the music was the fun part :)

[mikebuzz]

Mark you should be able to goto the EDIT/recover edl undo list , goto the last edl in the list and recover it , make sure to snapshot your current edl *

LAter
Buzz

[Bob L]

Robert, you should still be fine... reboot and use the Recover Last Undo... it will most likely get you everything back, if not very close to every edit.

Bob L

[Bob L]

Mark,

Your old undo files are still on the drive and most likely can be manually opened by using the Recover Undo option which allows you to manually pick from all that you find in the various project folders.

The SAWStudio version is slightly different than the old Pro version, so I'm not sure exactly what you will encounter in comparison.

But, I am working on a prompt for that dialog and/or a way to get around it.

Bob L

[AudioAstronomer]

Undo was pathed to a drive which I can no longer acces. Id-10t error.

[Bob L]

Oh well... I can't bring that data back then... :)

Another good reason why you should keep everything connected to each session in one folder, including the undos.

Going with that flow, you would get in a lot less trouble. :D

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Whatever....I just jumped in because I lost my edits trying to change the number of layers in the undo list, trying to figure out your problem.

My edits are still gone, and so is the undo edl.

You tell me.

Mark

Well, it's about time you bow at my throne of wisdomosity.

Err... seriously, I really think the thing that needs to happen to prevent your calamity is the warning in the EDL Undo Levels dialog. The one that SAW Pro had and SAW Studio doesn't. Yet. :)

I feel from a psychological stand point that all the rest of this discussion is us trying to have some kind of control over the fact that you lost your work. (Which sucks.) And unfortunately there's nothing we can do about that. (Which sucks more.) It's in the past. We have no control. We must surrender to that.

Now... let's talk about your dreams...