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swing
07-08-2004, 02:58 AM
I'm really getting the LIVE feel of Sawstudio into my head now - the live test of DXplugs threw me over:) BUT - I came across this qoute in a thread at this place http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47908&highlight=sawstudio - "Finally I suspect that this super fast assembly language engine is a dinasaur not being easy to modify or offer new features comparable to other developments in the industry."
Would you fill me in here Bob? - It's a major investment for smalltime user like me and compability into the future is mandatory for me.

Bob L
07-08-2004, 03:30 AM
Well, quotes like that about assembly language just serve to demonstrate the ignorance and misinformation surrounding it.

It's unfortunate that most people are completely ignorant and misinformed about what assembly language is and how it works.

It is interesting to note that all code of every hi level language, in the end, comes down to assembly language, actually machine code, which assembly programming is the closest thing to.

It kind of makes me laugh.

Oh well... what you should concern yourself with is how does the product feel to you right now... compared to your other choices... does it do what it claims... does it feel stable on your system... is the performance snappy and tight, unlike many other apps on your same system... look at the size of the code, and the fact that it all goes in one folder with no hooks into the registry and other Windows dlls... all this should be what you concern yourself with when considering SAWStudio as a tool you might want to work with.

The future... who can know anything about the future of Windows and motherboards and drivers... worry about getting a machine up and running today that can do the work that you need to do. :)

SAWStudio seems to handle those needs for many people, just as it is now... not worrying about what it will be in the future.

Realize that the SAW product line has evolved over the last 12 years and managed to stay ahead of the game with each new version... and is still ahead of the game today, where it counts, in my opinion.

Bob L

swing
07-08-2004, 04:09 AM
Thx for fast reply :)

What about windows64? m-audio already have a beta 64driver för their deltas.
Is Sawstudio ready to go on that OS?

Bob L
07-08-2004, 10:06 AM
SAWStudio should run fine as it is, on the new 64 OS. But I'd say we have quite a wait before we'll really see any benefits from the change to 64 bits... at the moment, I'm just watching... I have no plans to change anything until I see a good performance benefit, if ever, or until I am forced into it because of internal hardware driver changes that obsolete my current code. :)

Bob L

matt
07-08-2004, 10:19 AM
:D ... I laughed, I cried, It was better than Cats!

AudioAstronomer
07-08-2004, 11:07 AM
Im tempted to copy and paste my rant here... seems it fits beautifully :)

Then again I asked the same questions not even a year ago ;) Ive learned my lesson ;)

Naturally Digital
07-08-2004, 12:46 PM
LOL! Dinosaur??? RIGHT!

Hey, quick poll for fun...

I programmed a little 6502 assembler back in high school (boy, seems like eons ago... maybe I'M the dinosaur!). My programming days ended shortly thereafter (I discovered my love of music). Sure was fun to make the machine do such 'impossible' things.

Anyone else (Besides Bob) log time manipulating registers?

Re: This thread, don't kid yourself. Assembly language (machine code) ROCKS as far as performance goes. The downside is it's far more time consuming and involved to code than the "high-level" languages.

SAWStudio IS the future!

Take care,
Dave.

Bob L
07-08-2004, 01:57 PM
What's funny is that ,for me, assembly language is far easier and faster to program than the high level language stuff.. it is insane for me to cut through C++... and when we talk about DirectX and DirectShow and COM programming in general... what a laugh... it takes so long for me to accomplish one simple task by the time I figure out all the documentation links to each of the interfaces and all the syntax... I mean it is definitely ridiculous. :)

For those that have not done assembly, they have already been taught to expect it to be extremely complex... and so it seems to be that way for them... for me... it's a dream way to talk to the machine.

Besides, much of the basic Windows interfacing I still do in straight C code... which is fairly simple... but almost everything that does any kind of processing of any kind, I write in straight assembler. I don't even use many of the basic C Library stuff like MemMove and so forth... I have re-written those routines in assembler... and boy the difference in performance is insane to witness.

It's all fun... and until someone shows me performance and stability and code size that completely blows my work out of the water, I'll probably continue ignoring the conversation about why I shouldn't do it this way. :D

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
07-08-2004, 02:33 PM
Besides, much of the basic Windows interfacing I still do in straight C code... which is fairly simple... but almost everything that does any kind of processing of any kind, I write in straight assembler. I don't even use many of the basic C Library stuff like MemMove and so forth... I have re-written those routines in assembler... and boy the difference in performance is insane to witness.


AHA! I remember about 6 months ago I tried to figure out how you were using asm to do basic windowing and such ;) I figured out how but I thought you were nuts for making that much code just to handle a window ;) Well that's been bugging me for a while, I feel better :)

Even re-writing most basic library functions in their native language can give huge speed performances... or even basic optimization methods (which require knowing asm to figure out how your compiler does certain prodecures; recursion, looping, memory management blah blah)... most people just dont really care :)

Pedro Itriago
07-08-2004, 04:41 PM
I'm really getting the LIVE feel of Sawstudio into my head now - the live test of DXplugs threw me over:) BUT - I came across this qoute in a thread at this place http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47908&highlight=sawstudio - "Finally I suspect that this super fast assembly language engine is a dinasaur not being easy to modify or offer new features comparable to other developments in the industry."
Would you fill me in here Bob? - It's a major investment for smalltime user like me and compability into the future is mandatory for me.
You know I couldn't resist (even though I hate to post when on the road :eek: ), so here I go.

...so, this is why windows is such a marvelous :p , small & efficient OS, is not written in assembly and mostly on C++, no wonder it loads so fast and hardly ever crashes (not to mention noone at redmond knows the full code - for safety reasons fer sure ;) - and that a lot of routines are fragmented, not to mention the luxury of weekly patches)!!!

That post on kvr should be right, it convinced my that SAW it's an awful program, that being able to run without registry entries (meaning you can move it's folder to wherever you like whenever you like & still work) and having such a pewny file size of only about 2 MB of code (graphics don't count) is such passe and old fashioned :confused: .

I want me one of those huge programs that take huge space (so what, harddrives are dirty cheap), preferably with pace included :cool: ; they are written in the language of the future, C++ (or visual C++, even better), that if I need to uninstall it, it will be very hard to take it away from the registry.

P.S.: For those of you who don't know me and didn't get it, I'm being my usual cynical being. And please don't take it personal swing, I'm not demeaning you for asking that question, you're rigthly entitled to be better informed, just hate the "mac head" type of personality that defends something no matter how ridiculous their allegations are.

AudioAstronomer
07-08-2004, 05:13 PM
It's a major investment for smalltime user like me and compability into the future is mandatory for me.

Let me mention that there are still people using versions of saw from 8-12 years ago in a professional environment. How's that for future proof!!

There is no other modern daw you can say that about... except maybe cubase on atari?!? LOL

As for 64-bit.... if 300$ on basic is a big upgrade for you... then you got about 10 years before a (then obsolete) 64-bit system will run you that much... You're looking well into the 1000-2000$ range for os/mobo/proc for a decent running 64-bit system that offers very little performance gain for SS... perhaps it will help other DAW's but they need all the bloody help they can to even come close to SS as it was even many years ago.

swing
07-08-2004, 05:40 PM
Hehehe!
Counting the laughs my thread generated I really feel glad to make other ppl happy:) Maybe I should have read a textbook on assembly before asking my questions - but I'm too busy making music:)

When I evaluate anything I go for functionality in open systems which interfaces with other systems. The keywords are Stability/Performance/Usability/Price.

I'm sick and tired of the buggy code that is inherent in all the apps on the market. The best one so far is Sonar 3.

Beeping my way through SS I find it so sweet to my system and while I really don't feel a need for having the app look like hardware - I don't mind:)

Now is the time to test the Midi workshop demo so i leave you for now and will probably be back with another funny question:)

Nice forum with interesting ppl! In cubase and nuendo forums they are not quite that happy! I suspect they're really unhappy.


Now - make some nice harmonic spectras!

swing

Oz Nimbus
07-08-2004, 08:22 PM
Welcome to the forum, Swing! As a former dedicated Sonar guy, I'm really happy I made the switch. My business has picked up considerably since.

Enjoy the demos, watch the videos, and don't hesitate to ask questions! Unlike those *cough* other forums, we do try to keep things somewhat professional here.

-0z-

mghtx
07-08-2004, 08:25 PM
Let me mention that there are still people using versions of saw from 8-12 years ago in a professional environment. How's that for future proof!!


I didn't know this for myself but I suspected it simply because I "get it." I can see the power of Saw. The power of assembly language. And I can see myself using Saw WAY into the future.

mghtx
07-08-2004, 08:34 PM
Nice forum with interesting ppl! In cubase and nuendo forums they are not quite that happy! I suspect they're really unhappy.

It's a nightmare at those forums. I still check in from time to time just to see what's going on and .......Wow! What a mess. The Sonar forum is not bad. Mostly good people there and I learn a little from it. This forum is my first and last stop though.

omaru
07-09-2004, 02:18 AM
I've been having some serious looks at SAWStudio for the past 18 months.
I've recently gotten more serious by purchasing the Midi Workshop to test. I think I'm here precisely because SAW is written in assembler.
I used to work with Atari's and Steinberg. Atari's are pretty well rock solid in midi timing. When Steinberg's support for that platform stopped, I finally went over to PC's - for me a 6 year period of frustration.

I've been working with MWS for about a week now and I can say that not once have I had the "this timing's wrong" feeling.

SAWStudio is the only PC program I've used with this result.

For me it's a steep learning curve to go from Steinberg to SAWStudio but, from what I'm hearing, that's where I'm at.

Thanks again Bob - great job

omaru

Bob L
07-09-2004, 03:10 AM
Don't be dragged under by the rumor of the steep learning curve... if you approach it with the right attitude, you'll find SAWStudio's design very straightforward, and very similar to the way audio engineers are used to thinking about audio.

It is different from most other app's approach, but who's to say this isn't the way it should have always been done. :)

Bob L

omaru
07-09-2004, 03:25 AM
Thanks Bob - I'm sure you're right - I just have 18 years of Steinberg keystrokes to dissolve.

Nice work

omaru

Yura
07-09-2004, 02:16 PM
I cannot restrain myself from comment such a "Denosaur" comments of that vst forum.

The one of Stnbg's theorems says:
Buy our product of Stnbg and you get the warranty you will get not less then $$$$ for the unit of labour in your studio.

the proof of the theorem lies on the surface of all OUR production scheme:
One of the famous Moscow studio that (uses Stnbg) asked me after some watching from behind my back to my actions of editing process:
- "hey, man, hehe, why you are working so fast?"
- "to finish fast with all this sh#t" - I seid.
- "hahaha! so understood! you NEED NO MORE of the money???".

Stnbg offers to realize it. what could inspire confidence to customer's clients? - cool presentable view of software with hundred of popup menues, windows and superdesigned labeled buttons. and how it may be commanding for performing of one simple operation to use several steps -there is no unfounded - try to simply do volume up, volume down and so and so... you need to cut up new regions for that... or... do the same by using automation lines?..I know users of Nndo themselvs even wry by thought of it. work slowly, gerrs, slowly, and presentable. And Stnbrg even does not allow to work faster then some limit - genius design! do not be a naive fanatics! it's your time - it's your money! and if you see someone find a stuff working faster?..fu! we are the cordon bleu here! pour out the waste on theirs stuff! and let them play with their toys! We are in business!

what comments can be done to situation where the Company affords the RELEASE FOR SALE THE VERSION that even not allow the audio drivers to be reinstalled inside itself and crashes every 10 mints? and all previous versoions crashed permanently and had sirious drivers-playback problems with different s-cards? and you nothing can do. dont try to send a help (I mean the last summer). and these all are saling.


I DONT BELEIVE IN THAT 20 OF MEN CANNOT CREATE JUST HONESTLY THAT ONE MAN DOES HONESTLY BETTER.

swing
07-09-2004, 02:33 PM
When U buy a car right?

sorry for the loudness of this - DON'T BUY ANYTHING COUNTING SOMETHING THAT'S NOT IN THE DEAL.

When midi is implemented - say - 2 -3 upgrades of Midi Workshops - the others are dead.

swing

Perry
07-09-2004, 03:17 PM
Don't be dragged under by the rumor of the steep learning curve... if you approach it with the right attitude, you'll find SAWStudio's design very straightforward, and very similar to the way audio engineers are used to thinking about audio.

It is different from most other app's approach, but who's to say this isn't the way it should have always been done. :)

Bob L


Just to chime in here as well :)

I 100% agree with Bob here! SAWStudio is the only program that I know of that approaches the digital recording process as a "recording engineer" would look at it... with that same logic. When I spend any time on any of the other available programs (Mac or PC) I am *always* reminded of how logical Bob's approach is and how much better I like it. This never fails to happen.

My first recording experiences (as a youngster mind you ;) were in the mid-sixties. We recorded on 3-trk half-inch tape. I've seen a lot of things come and go since then in terms of recording.... analog and digital.

SAWStudio is without any doubt in my mind the most stable and most "logical" recording platform available for digital recording/editing/mixing (given of course that one has a solid, modern computer properly configured and the proper hardware to go with it).

If you can let go of the notions of other program's ideas of "logic" (or their lack of it) I think you will discover a way of working in the digital domain that will rather quickly become the *only* way that you'll want to work. And, then when you look at other apps you too will likely wonder why on Earth anyone would want to do it "that way"! :)

I research the "future" of computing and the DAW situation on an ongoing basis. And, I used to worry quite a bit about what will happen next.... what the future will bring, what I should buy or not buy. And, I worried that it would all become obsolete and/or stop working all together.

Of course.... It's good to stay informed. It's good to have first hand knowledge to base one's decisions on. I still research and stay informed.

On the other had, I have learned from experience that excessively worrying about the "future" will certainly accomplish one thing... you get to worry a lot and be unhappy! :eek:

There have been times when I've worried about the future of DAW recording because of things that I've read about in the various industry "road maps" only to eventually (after a lot of worring on my part) see the "road maps" changed or modified. It all changes too rapidly to totally predict these things. Of course there are things that are "written on the wall" sometimes and we know they're coming... but...

Again I agree with Bob here.... look at what works today, what will get the job done for you AND ....won't drive you mad while doing it. :rolleyes:

For me (and many others) that, hands down, is SAWStudio. This isn't by the way simply "Flag Waving" here. I sincerely mean what I say... and like many of us, I live with this essentially every day with my work.

SAWStudio *is* different than the rest... thank goodness for that!!! :cool:

All the best,

Perry

mghtx
07-09-2004, 09:22 PM
I NEVER understood this whole "steep learning curve" complaint. What? Like you don't have to learn the other apps? Then why are there college courses that teach how to get around Pro Tools? Are there not keystrokes in Nuendo? Check out all the books being sold on how to work in "XYZ" software. When "XYZ" comes with a manual. It's another excuse. And big business.

Saw has a great manual (not to mention the tutorials and videos). I found it to be relatively easy to learn if you just read, watch, and practice. And as Bob says, once Saw is learned it sets you free.

Perry
07-11-2004, 01:04 PM
I NEVER understood this whole "steep learning curve" complaint. What? Like you don't have to learn the other apps? Then why are there college courses that teach how to get around Pro Tools? Are there not keystrokes in Nuendo? Check out all the books being sold on how to work in "XYZ" software. When "XYZ" comes with a manual. It's another excuse. And big business.

Saw has a great manual (not to mention the tutorials and videos). I found it to be relatively easy to learn if you just read, watch, and practice. And as Bob says, once Saw is learned it sets you free.

Exactly! :) IN my opinion it isn't harder to learn... it's easier.

And about being free... this is the thing that I really like in SAWStudio and one of the first things I notice in some of the other apps. I feel free to move around in SAWStudio, but in some (all?) of the others I feel shackled, unabled to move around in a more "natural" way... tied to the various "tools" and/or other buttons and menus.

This isn't to say that all of the other apps totally "suck" of course :eek: LOL.. though some in my opinion more or less do in many ways... but they just don't have the "feel" and flow of SAWStudio and definitely I don't enjoy the same "free" movement.

Happy to be a SAWer here! :)

Perry

David Hayes
07-12-2004, 09:37 PM
LOL! Dinosaur??? RIGHT!

Hey, quick poll for fun...

Anyone else (Besides Bob) log time manipulating registers?



Manipulating registers... Yep, been there. Can you say "Core dump!". The decision to go with ASM is something you have to build into the guts of the program. It is not a trivial decision. For speed and performance there is absolutely no better way to go. It is amazing the number of steps some of today's languages have to go through to get anything done.

begin rant...

I have recently (2 yrs) begun programming under Windoze. Take a look at the Microsoft Foundation Classes, they call it MFC (I have a different interpretation for the letters in the acronym). Unbelievable ... 12 gillion layers of inter-dependant crap. Makes one wonder what the original goal was when it all started, and if anyone is really in charge. In a way I feel sorry for Bob, he is stuck with Windoze because it is so popular, everyone has Win drivers for their soundcards, video cards, etc. Earlier days of windows were even worse than today, Win98, WinME, Win95, none of them are really deterministic, XP and 2000 are better but not hard real-time. SAW's rock solid performance is not made possible by the OS, it is IN SPITE of the OS. That which we enjoy and use every day has come at a tremendous expenditure of brain effort geared toward working "behind the back" of windows.

And BTW, can't we just slay the "registry" beast and get it over with?!? And if hard drives and memory are so cheap let's just static link everything and delete the 11 million "shared" dll's, ocx's, etc, etc...

... end rant

David Hayes
Stonewood Productions
C&D Robotics

AudioAstronomer
07-12-2004, 10:22 PM
Static linking is a nightmare! Bugfix? You can only patch something so much until it's just major hack work... redistribute? well err, most people are still on dialup! Im sure if Bob decided to include every dll that has a function he calls (or libraries that call those libraries call that need this reg.ini and refer to that data file to store information for that other library that's hooked to this device driver to refer to something in the registry and wont function if it's not loaded through svchost on startup...) ... Sawstudio would be almost un-downloadable.

Imagine if something like say... Flash did that!?!? It would be bloody reinstalling windows everytime you wanted an update!

dynamic linking is a great thing :) Now improper programming is bad... i.e. using non-standard libraries, editing foundation classes (ack!), basic core code on obsolete libraries, using system dependant graphic libraries... among many more are the real evils of the software world.

Oh well, sometimes the innovator (and perfector) can do everything "wrong" (by technical standards) and still do it so damn right.

Jechuy
07-13-2004, 03:01 AM
I'm a 10 years expierence programmer and i agree with Bob in using assembly language....there's nothing better to talk directly with the machine.

Bob is talking the same language with the pc....instead of using a translater like the high level language programs (C++, Pascal, Delphi, Visual Basic)...these programs don't "speak" very friendly with the pc.....they tend to do a lot of things to get sometimes unsatisfactory results.

Bypassing windows API's all you can it's the way to go if you want true perfomance and stability. And for audio/video applications it's a necessity.

When i saw the sawstudio page...and Bob said the core engine it's programmed in assembly language....i said..."Wooo...:eek:...i have to download the demo and see it for myself"....and i must admit that i'm very very impressed how sawstudio it's flying compared to other programs. :cool:

Other thing i liked it's the sawstudio clean install....no shared dll's or registry entries....just the installation folder.

As a programmer i understand the hard work that Bob is doing in creating sawstudio...it's a unique and powerful piece of software...as a musician/engineer i share Bob's idea..."This a dream come true"....and i like the idea too of having all your control room in a laptop....:cool:

I must say that "The productive way...it's called sawstudio"...i'm a sawstudio fan now... :) Keep it up Bob!!....and don't listen those people who don't like your vision....i do like it!! :)

P.S. I think Bob it's married with th pc because he can "talk" very friendly with it....Right Bob?....:D...Cheers!!

Jechuy
07-13-2004, 05:55 AM
By the way....i was reading the cat fight in the other forum....hehehe oh! boy....conclusion: for me sawstudio it's a professional tool made by a professional....so...this is not a toy kids!!...:cool: