writing automation offline

[Dan Hauck]

Working my way thru the manual..... I have no trouble writing automation with the virtual console & find it pretty straightforward. However, many times I feel like the machine could draw a smoother transition automatically than I can draw with a mouse, so is there a clear explanation of how to automate pans, eq compression, etc offline other than section 6.5 in the manual? Needn't tire your fingers explaining it if you can just refer me to the section of the manual where I can find the info I need.

Thanks

Dan

[Jay Q]

Hi Dan,

I have a very old version of the manual, so I don't know where to refer you, but it sounds like you wanna look at the Automation menu (use of the F key and slopes). Note that some things that you want to automate don't respond to these commands because they aren't typically used for sweeps (e.g., compression, EQ -- I do wish, though, that EQ responded to the F key). Anyway, take a look at that menu. Also, make note of the Automation Gallery which lets you store automation for later use; handy when you've created a complicated fade/sweep that you want to reuse.

Jay

[MMP]

I sweep EQ all the time...try it again, and make sure to use the view filter for the correct automation type. Set a start and end value and the F key will sweep smoothly between values.


MM

[Bob L]

Every control you can grab on the mixer will automate with the F fade command.

This command normally defaults to the fader, since I fel that is the most common use for it... but if you use the View Filter in Automation mode, you can then use the F command to sweep any control type.

You may also want to look into the Automation gallery... create your automation fades and sweeps once, and then pop them into any session from the gallery and stretch them into shape from there.

Bob L

[Jay Q]

I sweep EQ all the time...try it again, and make sure to use the view filter for the correct automation type. Set a start and end value and the F key will sweep smoothly between values.


MMWell, to quote the cop from Smokey And The Bandit, "sum bitch!" Man, I always wondered why it wouldn't do EQ. I thought it wasn't possible since I tried it in cases where the only automation between two points was EQ but I'd only get a volume fade upon hitting F. Didn't know V would let you do it. Thanks, Michael and Bob!

Jay

[Dan Hauck]

Guys, I'm sorry,but all this reads a bit like mandarin Chinese to me. I'd save cool sweeps in the automation gallery if I knew how to make them in the first place! As I said in my original post, I can see easily how to make sweeps by using the virtual console controls, what I can't figure out is how to set up these sweeps offline and hopefully have the machine do them for me more smoothly than I could do them myself. Bear in mind that most of you have been using this program for years & I've been working with it for a couple of weeks. You may have to explain things to me in a rather basic fashion. Also bear in mind that although I may be terribly ignorant, stupid I'm not.

[UpTilDawn]

I'll take a crack..... You have to understand that I haven't had time to read the manual unless it's an emergency for a long time, so I'm going to explain it step by step.

I'm just writing the details of what Bob and Michael already said.

There is an automation filter feature in Saw that will allow you to access and sweep any automatable control with a few steps... offline.

Right-click on the "AUT" button at the top of the MT. This will bring up a very large menu which displays every automatable control... Choose the one you need........ "Input Pan" for instance at the bottom of the second column.

This will turn on automation and display a bold red border around the button. You are now in filter mode.

Now pick a spot on a track where you want the pan to END (this is easiest in the long run) and move the pan slider to the position where you want the pan to be at the end of the sweep.

Next, move the cursor to the beginning point of the pan sweep and move the pan control to the point at which you want it to begin.

NOW, hit the "F" key on your keyboard. The pan will automatically be swept from the beginning to the end point!!

Great stuff!!!

You'll find other ways to use this I'm sure!
Don't forget to turn the filter mode off when you're done working with that operation by either hitting "V" on your keyboard, or by turning the automation button off again.

Hope this is in time to help.

DanT

[Dave Labrecque]

Dan,

FYI, once you get the off-line stuff down, you will probably never draw manual fades again. It's really an out-moded approach. Unless you're using a control surface for physical fader control, maybe. But don't even think about using the mouse for drawing fades in real time. At least that's been my experience.

I remember starting out with SAW Plus 10 years ago (10 years ago!? :eek:) and thinking, "Cool, I can draw each fader's automation one track at a time with the mouse during playback, then sit back and let watch 'em all fly!" It's actually way more powerful (and easy) than that!

FWIW...

[Dave Labrecque]

Dan,

Sorry, I'm at home and don't have SAW Studio at my fingertips...

But to get you started:

Enter automation mode (click on the AUT button in the multitrack). Mark an area on a track (drag in the time line). Now press the F key. Instant fade!

Or, enter automation mode. Place the cursor somewhere on a track. Move the fader for that track to minus infinity. Back the cursor up a few seconds. Now press the F key. Instant fade!

This time (still in automation mode) draw an automation move somewhere on a track to minus infinity. Now move further down the track a couple seconds and move the fader up to 0.00 dB. Now move the cursor back to the first automation move (ctrl-shift-TAB) and hit the F key. Instant fade up!

Search under Fade in the Help file for more...

[Jay Q]

Dan, also note that changing slope values for things like pans and mutes will give very smooth transitions. E.g., for panning, select the pan automation you want to change, then select Automation > Change Marked Automation Slope. Next, enter a value that corresponds to the rate of speed you want the transition to occur. Gives very smooth results.

Jay

[Bob L]

Another useful trick with the change slope command is to use the Shift key when you activate it... this will automatically calculate the required slope to have one entry just finish before the next entry starts, changing the slope value from entry to entry even as the entries get closer or further apart.

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

Another useful trick with the change slope command is to use the Shift key when you activate it... this will automatically calculate the required slope to have one entry just finish before the next entry starts, changing the slope value from entry to entry even as the entries get closer or further apart.
Got me. I was smiling smugly until this came up. There's always something up your sleeve. This is one of those things that I think would be nice, but don't have time to look for in the heat of a session on deadline and then forget about later. Way cool.

[Dan Hauck]

Ah, yes!


Very good info! I'll catch up with you guys soon. I appreciate the help. BTW, I'd be curious to see how long I've been using SAW. I bought my first copy after seeing a magazine ad in maybe '94? I used it for mixdown from my 16 track for several years but when the Hammerfall came out, I took the plunge for SAW Pro & never looked back. As far as I'm concerned, the 2-inch tape guys probably beat their clothes on a rock at the creek. And doing manual fades with a control surface or mouse is a bit like having a car & pulling it around with a horse. My problem was that I reached such a state of proficiency with SAW Pro that I couldn't find time to make the transition to SAW Studio. I knew it was much cooler but WOW! Unknowingly I was almost beating my clothes on a rock. I've seen quite a few other systems (including very expensive ones) and even SAW Pro smokes most of them. Studio smokes them all. Stick to your principles, Bob. I'll follow you anywhere.

Thanks guys

Dan

[Dave Labrecque]

Dan,

I took 6 months or more after I bought SAWStudio before I actually moved over to it from Pro. I was intimidated by the anticipated learning curve, but it wasn't bad at all. You won't regret it. It's a whole 'nother world up here. :)

[mikebuzz]

I was doing some automated fades Mon. when I applied a fade ( hilighted the section then inserted ) the levels at the end always ended at 0dB ??? it did not match the track level ??

I know theres a way to do it PLEASE tell me !!!!

I fixed it by doing an Offset
Later
Buzz

[Dave Labrecque]

I was doing some automated fades Mon. when I applied a fade ( hilighted the section then inserted ) the levels at the end always ended at 0dB ??? it did not match the track level ??

I know theres a way to do it PLEASE tell me !!!!

I fixed it by doing an Offset
Later
Buzz

Buzz,

I've never been real clear on how the marked-area-insta-fade works. I usually only use it as a starting point. Then I tweak it. When there's automation already written, I use the other method: move the cursor prior to the point I want to fade to, create the starting automation move, take the cursor off of the that move, put it back on, then hit F.

Bob: is it by design that we have to leave the new automation move before we can write a fade from it? I've always wondered. It's be a little cleaner to be able to just hit F after drawing that move.

[mako]

Great thread - just what I'm looking for - thanks everyone.

mako

[Bob L]

If you first set the final fader level as an automation entry, then go back in front and mark the area length you want to create, then simply press F... the automatic fade will fade to the final level set and not all the way to zero.

Zero db becomes the default when there is no following defined automation level.

If you do not mark the length, then the F command will fade and stretch up to the final destination set.

You are in control by setting the end level... by the way, you can also set the start level, then press F and it will fade from the start to the end levels.

Bob L

[Bob L]

You can also easily ramp single level entries up or down by using the slope commands... write in individual fader levels along the timeline, then go back to mark individual entries and use the slope change command to ramp it slowly. The Shift slope change will ramp exactly to the next entry, or automatic from each entry to the next when multiple entries are marked.

You can also set a default slope value before you actually write in the individual entries and then you wont have to go back to adjust the slopes afterward.

Bob L

[UpTilDawn]

I've been trying the change slope for marked area feature all day today.... I really love it.


By the way Bob, I notice that it seems that whenever I create an automated stepped fade (or pan, or whatever) by marking my start and end points (as we've been discussing here) that there always seems to be a few (2-4) marks that are bunched up real tightly at the end of the fade.

Why is that? Isn't there some way to assure that they will be evenly spread out?..... or is this one of the ways that pre-defining the slope value would help?

DanT

[Dave Labrecque]

I've been trying the change slope for marked area feature all day today.... I really love it.


By the way Bob, I notice that it seems that whenever I create an automated stepped fade (or pan, or whatever) by marking my start and end points (as we've been discussing here) that there always seems to be a few (2-4) marks that are bunched up real tightly at the end of the fade.

Why is that? Isn't there some way to assure that they will be evenly spread out?..... or is this one of the ways that pre-defining the slope value would help?

DanT

Dan,

Not meaning to speak for Bob, here, but if I understand you right, I think it's because of the mathematical "type" of fade that Bob's trying to create. There are linear fades and log fades and such. The default fade that SAW likes to draw seems to have the value change more rapidly toward the end. Actually, I'd be interested to hear Bob's explanation of these default fades. Type, why chosen, etc.

A separate issue I've been meaning to bring up is that sometimes I'll be trying to do a subtle "fade" from, say, 0 dB to 2.5 dB (so, just a few automation moves) on a few syllables of a voice-over (meaning that the placement of the fade's constituent entries are important to me -- anticipated to be regularly spaced). The first automation entry generated will be real close to the starting entry that I drew, and then the rest of the entries will be spaced normally. So, what I'm expecting is an even "distribution" from the BEGIN point to the END point, but instead the first two are bunched up close together.

Anyone else had this problem?

[Bob L]

The current curve for the fade is a type of log fade... a linear fade does not work very well in many cases at lower db levels.

I was going to create all kinds of default choice curves... but when the Gallery got finished, I decided that would be redundant since you can create your own favorite shapes.

Even if only a few entries get written due to the short db difference between start and end levels, the routine is following along the defined curve shape, and therefore you don't see linear spacing.

For very small ramp differences, you may want to use a single entry drop with a slope value.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

The current curve for the fade is a type of log fade... a linear fade does not work very well in many cases at lower db levels.

I was going to create all kinds of default choice curves... but when the Gallery got finished, I decided that would be redundant since you can create your own favorite shapes.

Makes sense to me (the log fade shape). FWIW... I've always thought it would be useful to have a few of those 'generic' shapes available as starting points (like in the Pro days) to then mold to our needs, rather than having to create them manually.


Even if only a few entries get written due to the short db difference between start and end levels, the routine is following along the defined curve shape, and therefore you don't see linear spacing.

Hmmm... I think I'm talking about something a little different. What you're describing seems to apply to the ends of fade-downs or the starts of fade-ups. I'm talking about the starts of fade-downs, where you'd expect the entries to start out regular, then get closer later. But in this case, the first two entries are 'clumped' near each other, then the entries are spaced normally after that.

I'll post a picture of what I mean when I get back from lunch...

[UpTilDawn]

I think I know what you mean Dave. I've seen this too... I've always just ignored that it happens and marked and moved it over.

DanT

[Dave Labrecque]

I'll post a picture of what I mean when I get back from lunch...

My chicken parm sandwhich was excellent, thank you.

Here's what I'm talking about. The first fade is how I expect it to look. The second one is how it comes out sometimes.

http://www.tucsonmedia.com/filetrans/files/LABRECQUE/Dailey/fades.JPG
http://www.tucsonmedia.com//usr/home/.web/htdocs/tucsonmedia/filetrans/files/LABRECQUE/Dailey/fades.JPG

[Bob L]

Dave,

What steps do I take to have it come out the second way?

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave,

What steps do I take to have it come out the second way?

Bob L

Dang, I thought you might ask that. :o

The picture I posted is a fabrication in the interest of expedience. Lemme see if I can make it do it for real. I'll report back...

[bcorkery]

Dang, I thought you might ask that. :oWe like to save all the hare questions for you!