Input Channel question

[kent]

The question is; 'How many Input Channels can SS Full record at once'. I've never seen SS Full, but the website says '72 Mono/Stereo Tracks'. Does this mean that (lets assume one PC with enough interfaces to receive 72 channels) SS Full can record 72 input channels at the same time? I want to avoid changing directions for this thread, so I'm not curious about hardware limitations and 'in the real world' applications. I just want to know the factual data of what the software, SS Full, is capable of. I remeber the thread from Bob about the recording rig he used for the Lon Bronson recording. If memory serves, approx. 35 channels were recorded simultaneously using 2 laptops. Does this mean the Input Channel limit for SS Full is something Under 35, and therefore necessitated the use of the second laptop? I searched this forum for 'Input Channel', and searched the SawStudio website. I cannot find references to answer this question on my own. I'm sure all of you who use SS Full know this one. I apologize in advance for such a basic question, but this info is not readily available.
Regards,
Kent

[AudioAstronomer]

48 per machine with full. Up to 384 across 8 machines if you're one crazy mother....

[kent]

Thanks Robert,
Just out of curiosity, why did Bob have to use 2 laptops to record Lon Bronson then? Is that because of hardware limitations (Interface)? Is it possible to put 2 RME HDSP 9652, or 2 Digiface's in one PC so that recording 48 simultaneous channels is possible? And lastly, since there are 48 Input Channels possible and 24 Output Channels (stats from website), that adds up to 72 I/O. Is this correct? Why does the website state 48 I/O then? Somewhere there's a mistake in addition. Sorry for not understanding yet, but I still don't have a clear answer for myself yet, and for others that are asking me the same question.
Regards,
Kent

[ffarrell]

Thanks Robert,
Just out of curiosity, why did Bob have to use 2 laptops to record Lon Bronson then? Is that because of hardware limitations (Interface)? Is it possible to put 2 RME HDSP 9652, or 2 Digiface's in one PC so that recording 48 simultaneous channels is possible? And lastly, since there are 48 Input Channels possible and 24 Output Channels (stats from website), that adds up to 72 I/O. Is this correct? Why does the website state 48 I/O then? Somewhere there's a mistake in addition. Sorry for not understanding yet, but I still don't have a clear answer for myself yet, and for others that are asking me the same question.
Regards,
Kent

Remember Bob was using Laptops and i think the ones he was using only hve 1 PCMCIA slot.

RME Digiface is a 24 ch pre PCMCIA

thanks
fvf

[Sebastian Eskildsen]

It´s 48 input and 24 stereo outputs (48 mono),
there is no limitation with mme or dwave, but I think RME is the only
company who write asio drivers witch can handle more than one device at
a time.

Sebastian

[AudioAstronomer]

Edirol's drivers handle more than one at a time, which I've done with success (and ease). Motu's supposedly do as well, but that has been a huge pain. It worked great for me.. but for others.. :mad:

[kent]

Remember Bob was using Laptops and i think the ones he was using only hve 1 PCMCIA slot. RME Digiface is a 24 ch pre PCMCIABob, is this true that the laptops used for the Lon Bronson recording had only one PCMCIA slot? If the laptop had 2 PCMCIA slots, would it have been possible to record all (35?) inputs with the one laptop. Would this be a theoretical YES but a practical NO? (reasons for no?) IF the laptop is limited to 1 PCMCIA slot, could the Firewire port be used for Firewire interfaces at the same time as the PCMCIA interface to reach the 48 Input Channel limit and record all simultaneously on one laptop?


It´s 48 input and 24 stereo outputs (48 mono), there is no limitation with mme or dwave, but I think RME is the only
company who write asio drivers witch can handle more than one device at
a time. OK, I downloaded the SS Full Demo. Based on the Recording setup dialog, would someone verify if this understanding of the Inputs/channels/ports/devices/virtuals/tracks is correct?

Inputs:
24 Stereo Devices. (Dev 01) has [01-02] in front of it. What does the [01-02] represent? I'm guessing 2 Ports or are they called Channels?

48 Mono Devices. These (ports/channels) have updated identifiers. The input chioces are now individualized like [01] and [02], and the device identifiers include more information like (Dev 01L) and (Dev 01R)

72 Mixer Channels. Sort of like Virtual Channels, but Real Software ports?

In total, there are 144 possible choices in the Recording Setup Input Lists. It appears that there are 48 real ports available for real world hardware inputs, and 72 virtual ports (1 from each MT channel)


Based on the Output Assignment dialog, would someone verify if this understanding of the Inputs/Outputs/channels/ports/devices/virtuals/tracks is correct?

Outputs:
24 Stereo Devices. These identifiers are almost identical to the Stereo Input Device List. (without the leading zero's) (Dev 01) has [1-2] infront of it.

48 Mono Devices. Can 48 Outputs be controled simultaneously? These are not selectable like the Mono Input Devices are. I understand that the MT Channel Output Assignment ALWAYS connects to a STEREO Output Channel. And that Mono Output is achieved by HARD panning the MT Channel Output.

Sebastian, controls for 48 simultaneous Inputs are covered by the 72 available channel strips. (Input Source all the way down to the Fader). And I understand that are 48 possible Output Assignment choices (with panning), but I don't see how to Control more than 24 simultaneously, because there are only 24 Output Channel strips? As an after-thought I can imagine it's possible by leaving the Output Channels center panned and fixed Volume setting then using 48 Hard Panned MT Track's as the source of control for Volume and such but this does not give 48 distinct simultaneously controlable Output MIXES. Let me know your thoughts on your statement of 48 Mono Outputs and how they can be controlled.

All in all, as I study the I/O porting I am convinced that there are ALOT of possiblilties. It looks to me like there is actually 72 I/O (48 In and 24 Out) ports of Simultaneous Control. Not including the other 48 Virtual Ports (Mixer Channel Inputs) which are also Simultaneously Controled. Just looking at the available Combinations where order is not important;

nCk = n!
(n ***8722; k)! k!

There are 72 MT Tracks that have 144 Input choices. The possible combinations are;

144C72 = 144! = 1.480212998e+42
(144 ***8722; 72)! 72!

That's 1.48 followed by 42 zero's !!!!

This is ONLY Input choice combinations and does not include the complexity added when Output routing choices are included in the bijection. The buffers overflow on my computer based calculator when I try to calculate 192!, resulting only in an ERROR output. So what's a few dozen extra zero's added to the number of possible routing combinations?

Possible connection to the learning curve?

Grazie Mille to anyone patient enough to reply to this exasperatingly long post.

Regards,
Kent

[Bob L]

Kent... its actually not all that complicated...

SAWStudio Full can address 24 stereo soundcard devices... this translates to 48 actual i/o channels of physical connections.

The design allows you to record them as any combination of stereo or mono signals so you can record up to 48 mono channels from 48 signal sources like mics or line ins... if you have the proper hardware.

You also have the same array of output devices, on most soundcards... therefore you can route the signals to 48 physical outputs... you can send a mono signal to a stereo device output pair and leave the pan in the middle... how you plug the physical cables outside SAWStudio is your choice.

The 2 laptops were used in the Lon Bronson gig because my laptop only had one PCMCIA slot... good for 24 channels with the RME Cardbus... so I simply latched the second laptop using the TCP/IP hook for a synced addition of the extra 11 channels I needed.

I just finished building a micro ATX cube machine to handle my future live gigs... this box has 2 PCI RME cards in it... giving me all 48 channels in one small box... with dual monitors and video overlay out and firewire... this is now going to make the live work that much sweeter for me.

In most cases, you really only use a few out devices, if you start to enjoy the idea of virtual mixing... you can record up to 48 channels at once, all mono, or combinations of some stereo, some mono... adding up to a total of 48 channles. The only limitation is that stereo signal pairs must be assigned across one device physically like device 1 (1-2), device 2 (3-4)... etc... all mixed to one stereo output.

The actual monitoring needs only one stereo mix bus to monitor all channels and signals at once... of course you may also use aux sends assigned to different devices for headphones and monitor feeds... you can also use other output tracks as separate matrix type mix outputs..

But you use the 72 stereo tracks in conjunction with all of it... you can record 1 track at a time and keep overdubbing till you fill them all up... if you use a track in mono, it takes the whole track... if you use it as stereo, you get double the duty... so 72 mono tracks... or 72 stereo tracks (144 signals), or any combo of both.

Hope that helps. :)

Bob L

[kent]

... its actually not all that complicated... One MUST chuckle when hearing this from the developer. . .


The actual monitoring needs only one stereo mix bus to monitor all channels and signals at once... of course you may also use aux sends assigned to different devices for headphones and monitor feeds... you can also use other output tracks as separate matrix type mix outputs.. Do I understand this correctly? That the Aux Sends comprise ANOTHER 6 OUTPUTS ! This takes the total to 54 Output options. And the Aux Returns add another 6 sources of Input. Is there another few dozen I/O's that I've failed to consider?

Hope that helps. :)
That helps ALOT. Thanks Bob for your thoughtful reply. That Micro ATX Cube is similar to what I've created. It's a 3 space, short depth, rack mounted PC with flip up flat panel LCD, roll out PC keyboard, 3 presonus digimax's, a Frontier Design Tango, a Furman conditioner, and 2 space drawer. I built the custom box myself, but in the end it wieghs in at approx. 110 lbs ! (I did put it on Industrial 4" Casters) The SawStudio Audio Device Setup lists 16 ADAT Stereo and 1 SPDIF Stereo Inputs available from my Frontier Designs Dakota/Montana interface. That translates to 34 Mono Input sources. I've successfully recorded a 14 piece band with 32 mic inputs a few times and never had a problem. (I haven't had an occassion to record off the SPDIF Input)

I'm seriously considering selling the 3 Presonus Digimax's and the Tango to replace them with 4 of the Berringer ADA 8000's. Mainly so I can address 32 Outputs rather than the 8 I currently have. (Running Individual Monitor mixes for a 14 piece AND feeding the mains CAN run into SEVERAL Outputs) Add to that a Stereo Output for my headphones and 20 Outputs are used up immediately. Anyone ever find a need for an extra couple of Outputs at a Live event? It Happens.

Thanks again,
Kent

[Bob L]

The aux sends can be assigned to device outs rather than looped back as virtual buses... but that does not mean that it adds extra physical outputs.

You have the ability to address a total of 48 physical ins and outs... in various combinations of up to the full 48 channels... not beyond.

As I said... in most instances you will only need 1 or 2 stereo outpt devices... but you can also address the rest as separate outs... but you can not total beyond the 48 chans.

Bob L

[Naturally Digital]

I'm seriously considering selling the 3 Presonus Digimax's and the Tango to replace them with 4 of the Berringer ADA 8000's. Hi Kent,

If you're serious about that then you should sell me your Digimax's for cheap! ;)

*Seriously* though, you can also consider the Focusrite Octopre LE... it has 8ch. D/A with the optional ADAT card installed. Just FWIW.

[ttako]

Hi, If I understand I need at least two machines when I would like to live record more than 48 tarcks?
Is it a possibly future plan to get all 72 channels of input at the same time using only one PC? (using 1-3xRME HDSP MADI card or 3x FireFace 800*etc..)
Another question is, when I have 48 mono track and I use compressors and Eqs on all channels, I get a CPU load "A". When I would use 48 STEREO tracks and EQs and COMPs on all 48 ST channels, would I get the same CPU load? (in other words, when i use mono tracks, the channel strip works in mono mode as well, or it remains stereo in the view of CPU usage??)

Thanks very mutch,

Tamas Tako

[Bob L]

Tamas,

Nope... 48 chans is the current max... for many reasons... the first one being hardware limitations of the soundcards and drivers in one system.

That's why I created the TCP/IP link... you can slave up to 8 machines... although that would be one heck of a session to keep in touch with. :)

There is no real huge benefit of mono tracks over stereo... in fact in many cases stereo files will actually give better transfer rates because of the 2 chans interleaved together, requiring less head seeks.

Bob L

[kent]

*snip*You have the ability to address a total of 48 physical ins and outs... in various combinations of up to the full 48 channels... not beyond.*snip*Thanks Bob, my last post does appear like I'm getting a little channel crazy.

Is the limit of 48 simultaneous channels operating, a sum of the Inputs operating AND the Outputs operating together? e.g. if I'm usting 20 Outputs does that leave only 28 Inputs available?




If you're serious about that then you should sell me your Digimax's for cheap! ;)

*Seriously* though, you can also consider the Focusrite Octopre LE... it has 8ch. D/A with the optional ADAT card installed. Just FWIW. So your selling your Octopre's huh?;)

Regards,
Kent

[Bob L]

All 48 ins and outs are simultaneously available.

Again, I say, you will mostly only ever use a few out devices once you realize the power of the virtual mixer in SAWStudio... it does all the work... mixing and processing all 72 stereo tracks together into a final stereo or surround mix.

If you use this power, you only need a few out devices to actually monitor the audio.

And, in most cases, you will be using far less than the 48 ins at one time unless you are doing a major live recording session. Many sessions will most likely be using only a few inputs while you fill the 72 tracks with overdubs a few at a time... it all depends on the type of work you do.

Bob L

[Naturally Digital]

So your selling your Octopre's huh?;)No, I haven't bought rackmount pre's yet. I've done fairly extensive comparisons of the options available and the LE has a few features that the ADA8000 doesn't. Note, only the Octopre LE has D/A's, not the original Octopre.

If I were you I'd keep the Presonus' and add one more piece to your setup (a D/A converter). I'm not sure how many options are out there but the Creamware A16 and Fontier Tango come to mind. Obviously there are others.

Just a thought.

[kent]

Thank you for the info David. I am using a Tango already. The Digimax's do hold a sweet spot in my heart, but the ADA8000's are causing a little gear-lust at the moment.:)

[Perry]

Tamas,

Nope... 48 chans is the current max... for many reasons... the first one being hardware limitations of the soundcards and drivers in one system.

That's why I created the TCP/IP link... you can slave up to 8 machines... although that would be one heck of a session to keep in touch with. :)

There is no real huge benefit of mono tracks over stereo... in fact in many cases stereo files will actually give better transfer rates because of the 2 chans interleaved together, requiring less head seeks.

Bob L

Just to chime in here while on the subject of 48 I/O..

I haven't actually tried this mind you, but the Soundscape Mixpander Power Pak from Sydec is capable of 48 inputs at once (and 48 outputs too of course if you wanted them) from one soundcard.

With one Soundscape 48-TA iBox (as I have) there are 24 analog I/O with an additional 24 digital I/O where you can add more AD/DA (with a second iBox or other converters).

So this fits in nicely with anyone who might want to use the full 48 inputs of SAWStudio into one computer. :)

Perry

[kent]

Just to chime in here while on the subject of 48 I/O..

I haven't actually tried this mind you, but the Soundscape Mixpander Power Pak from Sydec is capable of 48 inputs at once (and 48 outputs too of course if you wanted them) from one soundcard.

With one Soundscape 48-TA iBox (as I have) there are 24 analog I/O with an additional 24 digital I/O where you can add more AD/DA (with a second iBox or other converters).

So this fits in nicely with anyone who might want to use the full 48 inputs of SAWStudio into one computer. :)

PerryThanks for the info Perry. The Mixpander Power Pak does indeed look powerful. On Summer special for $2500.00. Wow cheap for some, pricey for others. Odd that thier website does NOT show any pictures of the back of the unit to get an idea of the connectivity design. Out of curiosity, what does MADI stand for, and mean?
Regards,
Kent

[Pedro Itriago]

Thanks for the info Perry. The Mixpander Power Pak does indeed look powerful. On Summer special for $2500.00. Wow cheap for some, pricey for others. Odd that thier website does NOT show any pictures of the back of the unit to get an idea of the connectivity design. Out of curiosity, what does MADI stand for, and mean?
Regards,
Kent

"MADI (multichannel audio digital interface)

Technical Definition:
MADI is an interface standard described by the Audio Engineering Society (AES) standards AES-10 and AES-10id. It was developed by Neve, Sony, and SSL as an easy way to interface digital multitrack tape recorders to mixing consoles."

You can do a lot of routing using MADI, which could make life easier by sending several channels of audio thru a single optical/electrical connection

Taken from lighthouse digital systems (http://www.lighthousedigital.com/TDM/madi.htm)

MADI is a great option for extending router channels around your facility. Every audio channel on a MADI card can be sent to any type of card in your router, the reverse works as well, and any input in the router can then be sent down the MADI to your destination, be it a Digital Audio Workstation, Console or other device with MADI I/O.

56/112 Channel MADI standard

Fiber Optic or Copper I/O

Two MADI I/O Channels per Module
Also Modular MADI coax and Fiber Optic Length Extenders

Several manufacturers have MADI cards, included Sydec, rme and many others. There are also MADI compatible converters, etc.

[kent]

Thank you Pedro,
I am just getting introduced to the MADI interface standard now. Do you use interface(s) with the MADI standard? If so, what made you choose it, and/or what do you do with it that is unique that other standards do not offer? The snip from 'Lighthouse Digital Systems' mentions that;
Every audio channel on a MADI card can be sent to any type of card in your router, the reverse works as well, and any input in the router can then be sent down the MADI to your destination, be it a Digital Audio Workstation, Console or other device with MADI I/O.The term router means network to me, as in TCP/IP Network. Does this mean one can use the MADI standard to transfer audio channels over Ethernet cables and through (data) Routers to any desired destination in the world? As in musicians playing in my studio can be recorded by your rig at Banana Studios in Caracas? Or the North Cap Frosties could jam with the AntArctic Drifters?:)

Sort of like this; http://www.digitalmusician.info/index_eng2.htm

Regards,
Kent

[Pedro Itriago]

I currently don't have any MADI interface (nor think I'll need them in the forseable future)

I have an old Frontier Design'sWavecenter ISA on my old audio computer (now mainly internet & stuff), a Frontier Design Tango 20 Bits (the oooold one, the other -24 bits- is the oold one) which can be connected to either the Wavecenter or to the RME HDSP9632 (expanded to 6 I/O's @ 192khz) on my newer audio/video comp. via an optical selector, which would give me a total of 14 channels @ 48khz.

MADI is not a tcp/ip protocol, and the distances you can have with it are in the order of the 100 to 300 depending on the type of connection meters (electrical or optical, respectively)

******edit******
Look at the router more like a digital patchbay/selector, otherwise it would be very difficult to deal with those signals)
****** end edit*****

Here's an example of a MADI router (www.euphonix.com/broadcast/products/ routers/images/euph_facility_route_sht_03.pdf)

Long distance recording is usually made via single/double channel ISDN lines, which are synchronous and give means for proper sync. The one you pointed out is using a plug-in that carries the audio thru DSL, which is kinda tricky since it is an asynchronous data transfer method. Maybe they've found a voodoo to make it happen. Either way, you don't need to have a MADI-like connection to do that

BTW, Banana Republic is not the name of my studio, is a very despective name I've placed as my country, meant to signify exactly that, a Banana Republic

[kent]

Thanks for the MADI follow up info Pedro.


*snip*BTW, Banana Republic is not the name of my studio, is a very despective name I've placed as my country, meant to signify exactly that, a Banana RepublicI just conjured a silly studio name from your location identifier. Anything being done at home to convert banana's to democrats/republicans?

Regards,
Kent