new meter plugs

[Dingo]

Here (http://www.elementalaudio.com/products/inspectorxl/index.html)
Bought'em, Love 'em $49. Today only. Elemental audio.

[Arco]

Jumped in myself..price is pretty enticing (i've got to make use of the line through the much higher price thing on my website :rolleyes: -- possibly increase sales.)

[Cary B. Cornett]

I was comparing the website info between Inspector XL and the Sonoris meter plugin. The Sonoris plug has two advantages that I can see, although it has far fewer features. First, it is Saw native (probably more efficient), and second, it includes a pink noise calibration source for setup of monitors.

Is there any easily available pink noise reference source (plugin or program) that will give me an accurate -20 dBfs reference level? I could easily generate pink noise using Cool Edit 2000, but I do not know whether it can reliably set a pink noise reference level.

An answer before that introductory offer expires would REALLY help...

[Sebastian Eskildsen]

Thanks a lot for the link.
Sebastian

[Cary B. Cornett]

Aw, heck! I just couldn't stand it... bought Inspector XL, installed it, and... WOW! I only checked out the meter and the spectrum analyzer, but those were as impressive as anything I have ever seen in software... Except, of course, for SawStudio!

I'm still wondering about a calibrated digital pink noise source, though...

[jeromee]

I was using the demo and had the multimeter up, switching the spectrum analyzer window views while my audio was playing and got an immediate crash and forced shutdown of SAW. Maybe it's just me and a driver conflict?

[Craig Allen]

Is there any easily available pink noise reference source (plugin or program) that will give me an accurate -20 dBfs reference level?Have you tried Brain Spawn's ToneGen? It has a pink noise generator - get it from here (http://www.brainspawn.com/products/ToneGen/).

[jeromee]

I was using the demo and had the multimeter up, switching the spectrum analyzer window views while my audio was playing and got an immediate crash and forced shutdown of SAW. Maybe it's just me and a driver conflict?

I tried it on a different system and it works great. The problems I was having must be related to windows service pack one. It worked fine with my work computer and serv pack2. Oh well. I just bought it as well. Thanks for the heads up Dingo.

[Arco]

..pretty cool. I had them inserted and removed while playing with no problems. For $49..good deal and they do look great.

thanks for the heads up.

[trock]

thanks for the link

for 49 bucks i dove in too. ot even sure what most of it is but they look really cool. i used to use inspector in cubase on the MAC so this looks like the super version of that.

will def have to read the manual on this one :)

[Tree Leopard]

Dingo - If you hadn't said anything I would have missed the 48 hr special they had for return customers - $ 29.00! So thanks!

Well, at last... I reckon the suite is very well put together, covers all the essentials and its pleasant to use. Nice to have metering that you actually see cleary if you are a couple of steps back from the screen.

Andre

[mikebuzz]

I just bought it to , I really like the stereo analyzer VERY USEFUL IMO

Later
Buzz

[Dingo]

Happy to let everyone know. I've been using them with Bob's frequency analyser so I've started connecting the graphs with actual sound. Pretty nice I have to say.

[Cary B. Cornett]

I have noticed something odd about the metering plug: its headroom indidcation does not agree with the headroom indication given by the old SAW Meter Bridge plugin. The EAS plug generally indicates that there is more headroom than the SAW MB says there is. I do not yet know whether this is something affected by settings of the EAS plug (I would think it shouldn't), of if it means that one or both of these indicators is wrong.

Anyone else see this discrepancy? If so, please post your observations.

[Mark Stebbeds]

I have noticed something odd about the metering plug: its headroom indidcation does not agree with the headroom indication given by the old SAW Meter Bridge plugin.

Isn't a meter calibration discretionary to the personal taste of the developer, like the way RME hardware meters show overload before others may, as a safety net?

I assume you are talking about a "little bit" of difference?

Mark

[Naturally Digital]

Well, at last... I reckon the suite is very well put together, covers all the essentials and its pleasant to use. Nice to have metering that you actually see cleary if you are a couple of steps back from the screen.Yeah, I'm a sucker for anything like this! I had to buy it. The little "polar graph" is pretty cool. Kudos to these guys.

[Cary B. Cornett]

Isn't a meter calibration discretionary to the personal taste of the developer, like the way RME hardware meters show overload before others may, as a safety net?

OdBfs is what it is. Once the sample value hits the biggest possible number, they ain't no more. In the case of this particular metering package, there are a number of customizable settings, including how many consecutive "max level" samples should happen before "clip" is declared/counted. However, the headroom indication should ALWAYS be the dBfs level of the highest single sample. Therefore, IMO, there is nothing at all "discretionary" about how to calculate headroom.


I assume you are talking about a "little bit" of difference?

Mark

I am seeing a difference of 2 or 3 dB, which I consider substantial, and definitely enouogh to "worry about". It is difficult to give an exact number because the old Meter Bridge plugin gives a single number for a stereo pair of channels, whereas the EAS metering gives individual channel headroom values. To make matters worse, in at least one instance there was a disagreement between Saw MB and EAS meters about which channel had less headroom. To say the least, such a discrepancy does not inspire confidence.

[AudioAstronomer]

Well 0dbfs isnt as simple as it sounds... Unless the meter is oversampled properly you cant be terribly sure what is peaked and what is not.

[Tree Leopard]

...I am seeing a difference of 2 or 3 dB, which I consider substantial, and definitely enouogh to "worry about". It is difficult to give an exact number because the old Meter Bridge plugin gives a single number for a stereo pair of channels, whereas the EAS metering gives individual channel headroom values. To make matters worse, in at least one instance there was a disagreement between Saw MB and EAS meters about which channel had less headroom. To say the least, such a discrepancy does not inspire confidence.Do you have any other plug-ins on those tracks or on your outputs? Or is this based on readings of "virgin" audio without any FX processing?

Andre

[Cary B. Cornett]

Well 0dbfs isnt as simple as it sounds... Unless the meter is oversampled properly you cant be terribly sure what is peaked and what is not.

I think you are confusing "0dBfs" with "overload indication". The former is purely a matter of numbers. When any single sample reaches the Highest Possible Number that sample has reached 0dBfs, regardless of any oversampling considerations. Now, in theory if there were two or more consecutive samples at 0dBfs you could indeed have a slight "over" in the D/A conversion (and some poorly designed converters will actually "ring into overload" from peaks below that level because of their filtering).

By definition if any single sample reaches 0dBfs your headroom indicator should indicate that you have 0 dB of headroom, period.

[Cary B. Cornett]

Do you have any other plug-ins on those tracks or on your outputs? Or is this based on readings of "virgin" audio without any FX processing?

Andre
OK, I have the metering on the master output track. The EAS meter is in the pre-fade insert, and the Saw MB is post-fade, but since the output fader is at unity gain there should be NO difference in level between these two points, especially since there are no other plugins in these inserts. In fact, IIRC, Bob sets up the faders so that, if they are at unity, there is no multiplication being performed, meaning the gain change function is left out of the overall processing loop.

The readings are indeed from the output of a mix, but given the way the two meters are set up they should read EXACTLY the same peak levels, and should show EXACTLY the same headroom.

[Mark Stebbeds]

The EAS meter is in the pre-fade insert, and the Saw MB is post-fade, but since the output fader is at unity gain there should be NO difference in level between these two points, especially since there are no other plugins in these inserts.

Have you tried switching them? Just curious.

Mark

[Tree Leopard]

Cary - yep - there's something interesting happening here. I had some time today to devise a quick test which is easy for you try yourself.

Using the Voxengo Beeper, I recorded about 30 secs of beeps and then edited the beeps in SF to exactly: 0.00 / -06.00 / -12.00 / -20.00 / -48.00 dB. All files were recorded in stereo @ 24 bit / 48kHz

Note: I soon discovered that the Voxengo beeper is accurate to about + / - 0.20 of a dB - hence the fine-tuning in SF.

Back in SAW, I ran the Sonoris Meter, the IXL Meter [2 chan], and had the old SAW MB up as well.

1) The beeps recorded @ 0.00 dB registered as an "over" in SAW. If you try the same, you'll see how this appears zoomed to sample view in the SF window. In all the other meters no clipping occurred - zero was just zero.

My guess is that from 0.00 upwards SAW counts these as "overs" - perhaps because it calibrates levels in 0.25 dB steps as it appears in the Mixer - not sure. Conversely you might see a peak hitting near-zero in SAW where in fact it may be a mere - 0.05 dB under 0.00 dB FS. (I vaguely remember Dave V observing a similar issue some time ago...)

2) No differences were observed using pre / post / output inserts.

3) Aside fom the 0.00 dB issue, all the meters (including the meters in the E mixer) read out the exact same results on all the test levels - no variation.

4) On more complex musical material there was a noticeable delay in the numeric calculations in the IXL - actually, they were all over the place - rarely the same twice through. (The response of the meter bars themselves was fine.)

In this regard, the Sonoris Meter has a clear advantage - its native. It responds quickly and accurately to changes in level and the read-outs are much more consistant. For critical work, it gets my vote.

The IXL is great in the visual feedback department - when you need it.

5) As far as "overs" go, I'd imagine that the .wav file format is able to record whatever data goes over zero . That is, up until the headroom limit of your soundcard - that's just my guess on that one. You can also create virtual "overs" in SAW of + 20 dB if you want - the IXL will read these.

Aside from the read-out issues with the IXL, all this leaves me with quite a few questions about how "overs" are handled in SAW and in the digital domain in general...

Andre

[Cary B. Cornett]

Have you tried switching them? Just curious.

Mark

I went one better. Well... actually two.

In output 1 pre-fade insert, I patched:
IXL Multimeter 2ch
Inspector
Saw Meter Bridge

In output 1 post-fade insert, I patched:
Saw Meter Bridge

Again, master output fader set at "0" as in unity gain.

Then I ran a segment of a mix, and got these headroom readings...

Both Pre and Post, the Saw Meter Bridge indicated 2.9 dB.
Inspector (free plug) said L: 3.0 dB R: 2.9 dB
IXL Multimeter said L: 4.5 dB R: 5.42 dB

Although it confirms my original concern, I probably should have run the test this way in the first place. Particularly interesting is the fact that Inspector agreed with Saw MB, thus the two plugs that disagreed were from the same company (perhaps same programmers?).

I am hoping to hear from EAS tech support soon...

[Dingo]

Well if you don't have any overs in the final mix I'd say it's not rocking nearly enough. There sould be at least one red light for every beat. That helps the groove get through. I just thought I'd drop that bomb on you "golden ears" types. :D But seriously, thanks for checking this stuff out.

[Cary B. Cornett]

The first "bug fix" for Inspector XL has come out, and appears to have fixed the headroom accuracy problem. I'm pretty well satisfied now, and look forward to really getting into its details...

[Carl G.]

The first "bug fix" for Inspector XL has come out, and appears to have fixed the headroom accuracy problem. I'm pretty well satisfied now, and look forward to really getting into its details...

So this meter is *now* accurate??

[Tree Leopard]

Just tried the IXL update 1.0.1 - getting better... thanks to Cary for following up on this.

BUT

...just tested this on a 24 / 96 archival transfer from LP with a great variety of pops, clicks, and "hidden" transients.

Pieter's meter picks up stuff that the IXL misses. Hence Steve's enthusiastic endorsement. Its hi-rez, sample accurate, and a genuine "Native Dancer". K-metering is a nice way to work too.

So I've just learnt something about "virtual" meters...

Andre

PS: Btw, the rrp for the IXL has now zoomed up to $219 - so take advantage of the introductory offer.

[Cary B. Cornett]

So this meter is *now* accurate??
As far as I was able to determine, yes. You might want to check Tree Leopard's comment, though...

[Cary B. Cornett]

Just tried the IXL update 1.0.1 - getting better... thanks to Cary for following up on this.

BUT

...just tested this on a 24 / 96 archival transfer from LP with a great variety of pops, clicks, and "hidden" transients.

Pieter's meter picks up stuff that the IXL misses. Hence Steve's enthusiastic endorsement. Its hi-rez, sample accurate, and a genuine "Native Dancer". K-metering is a nice way to work too.

Andre


Did your comparison include the old SAW Meter Bridge? This was what I used for a standard. If the Saw MB also misses these transients, then I have no simple standard of comparison to be absolutely sure of. :confused:

Also, have your reported this discrepancy to EAS? I would very much like to see how they respond (and this would influence whether I would consider any of their other plugs). Of course, there is also the small matter of getting them to port a Saw Native version...

[Tree Leopard]

Did your comparison include the old SAW Meter Bridge? This was what I used for a standard. If the Saw MB also misses these transients, then I have no simple standard of comparison to be absolutely sure of. :confused:... hmmm ... this is fustrating...

I ran the same test (on the LP transfer) running back over the same 30 secs of material.

After about the 3rd replay the IXL * finally * produced a near identical reading to the Sonoris Meter, which btw, gave consistent readings on every replay.

This was an A/B in K-12 RMS mode. Just on the basis of this quick test, the SAW MB was responding accurately to the same transients.


Also, have your reported this discrepancy to EAS? I would very much like to see how they respond (and this would influence whether I would consider any of their other plugs). Of course, there is also the small matter of getting them to port a Saw Native version...I have a mix to work on tonight so I'll see what else is happening before I email EAS. I'll take the SAW MB out for a spin as well.

As for "absolutes" and standards for metering in the virtual realm, then these are questions for Steve (or anyone else who is well-informed on these issues).

Andre

PS: I have Equim and Firium - both are great general purpose EQs.

[Tree Leopard]

Sorry to drone on about this...

Sent an email to EAS - so lets see what they say...

After checking out all the software metering I have (including the Vincent Burel meter http://perso.wanadoo.fr/vb-audio/us/products/vumeters/vumeter.htm and the meters in Sound Forge) the only issue I can see with the IXL is a problem with the actual "real time" read-out for peak and headroom values. It seems like some kind of latency issue. It becomes more pronounced on complex waveforms, with wide, rapidly alternating dynamics.

From what I observed, the rise and fall of the meter bars themselves seems just fine, accurately tracking the transients.

If you look through the manual of the IXL you'll see that they have done their homework. Check out the section on the "Statistics Module" re: clipping. The discussion continues in "Details, Details". There are also lots of callibration options to experiment with.

The meters in SAW can only show so much detail. Using the Sonoris perhaps together with the IXL simply makes the details more visible - if and when required.

If you receive material recorded on another DAW or portable recorder - especially in the case of live sessions or wild FX recordings - then then checking levels on the virgin files with the Sonoris would be sensible, IMO.

Other than that, there's a great freeware product out there that ships as a stereo pair - your ears.

End of drone. Have a great day!

Andre

[Naturally Digital]

I bought this one for the Spectragram. :cool:

Thanks for the thorough review guys!

[MMP]

and I bought it for the phase meter.


MM

[jeromee]

I bought it just to buy it.....

You can't it with you.....:D

[TotalSonic]

Personally I'm passing on this one. Between the Sonoris Meter and Brainspawn's SpektR-Pro (which gives both a real time spectrum analyzer and a phase correlation meter) I think there are SAW native and sample accurate solutions that while might be more expensive than the introductory price for IXL are indeed to me more elegant.

One of my favorite stories from Bob Olhsson (who was Motown's mastering engineer in the late 60's/early 70's) is how while he was working at Atlantic Studios Tom Dowd came in one day and painted over every single meter because he wanted everyone in the studio to work off of the sound instead of the visuals. Certainly not something I would want to ever do myself - but I think it does bring the important point that we should mix from an aural stand point (which involves working to improve our monitoring environments to the best possible level) and never to just make the pretty light displays "look right."

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Carl G.]

One of my favorite stories from Bob Olhsson (who was Motown's mastering engineer in the late 60's/early 70's) is how while he was working at Atlantic Studios Tom Dowd came in one day and painted over every single meter because he wanted everyone in the studio to work off of the sound instead of the visuals. Certainly not something I would want to ever do myself - but I think it does bring the important point that we should mix from an aural stand point (which involves working to improve our monitoring environments to the best possible level) and never to just make the pretty light displays "look right."
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Nice reference point.... and a good reality check sometimes.

I'm not a programmer.... but I'll have a new digital meter program for sale that has paint over it! (easy to 'program' with Photoshop) :)
Guaranteed to be Tom Dowd Accurate!
Just $23.16 (I'm working this down to 'costs' for my 'buds')
..... oh... beta version only... bug fixes are free though :)

[Mark Stebbeds]

[QUOTE]Personally I'm passing on this one.


Me tool


Bob Olhsson ...Tom Dowd ..painted over every single meter because he wanted everyone in the studio to work off of the sound instead of the visuals.

Good advice.

Yeah, I have plenty of meters all over the place. Red is too loud, green means some signal is there, somewhere in between is perfect at 24 bits. Although meters are helpful tools to avoid overs, that's about it, IMO.

There have been recent threads recommending using spectrum analysers to guide users into EQ adjustments to match other audio. I disagree and consider this advice misguided and misleading. Use your ears folks. Identical pictures seldom sound the same.

Mark

[Mark Stebbeds]

because he wanted everyone in the studio to work off of the sound instead of the visuals.

Forgot to mention......the forthcoming input monitoring feature coming in the next version of SS will do more to help determine at what level to record something than a meter ever will.

Mark

[Pedro Itriago]

Now Mark, how many times do I have to tell you "don't gloat with your friends about things you have/know that they don't"...


Forgot to mention......the forthcoming input monitoring feature coming in the next version of SS will do more to help determine at what level to record something than a meter ever will.

Mark

[TotalSonic]

Now Mark, how many times do I have to tell you "don't gloat with your friends about things you have/know that they don't"...

I've had a Mixtreme for a long time - which has always had input monitoring on it - so this isn't something I've ever missed.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Pedro Itriago]

I didn't mean the metering Steve, I meant the next version of SS
Originally Posted by Mark Stebbeds
Forgot to mention......the forthcoming input monitoring feature coming in the next version of SS will do more to help determine at what level to record something than a meter ever will.


I've had a Mixtreme for a long time - which has always had input monitoring on it - so this isn't something I've ever missed.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Mark Stebbeds]

Now Mark, how many times do I have to tell you "don't gloat with your friends about things you have/know that they don't"...

Hi,

I'm not sure what you mean Pedro. I just meant that input monitoring on v4.0 will be a big plus for SS and it's workflow, including "listening" to levels in the mix while recording and knowing there is plenty, or not enough.

Mark

[TotalSonic]

I didn't mean the metering Steve, I meant the next version of SS

I was referring to input monitoring - not metering. You can monitor an input with what in practical terms is no latency using the Mixtreme console - and that feature has been available for a long time.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Pedro Itriago]

Oh, nothing Mark, just teasing. Saying that you know about things in SS 4.0 that many don't know (maybe you knew it from reading post's here & I just don't remember reading them, I wouldn't be surprised)


Hi,

I'm not sure what you mean Pedro. I just meant that input monitoring on v4.0 will be a big plus for SS and it's workflow, including "listening" to levels in the mix while recording and knowing there is plenty, or not enough.

Mark

[Ian Alexander]

I was referring to input monitoring - not metering. You can monitor an input with what in practical terms is no latency using the Mixtreme console - and that feature has been available for a long time.
Steve,
Do you know if the Mixtreme "no latency" input monitoring passes the analog input through or goes through an AD/DA? I have been to several studios where the headphone feed has a slight delay (AD/DA, I think) and it was enough to be distracting. Thanks.

[Perry]

Steve,
Do you know if the Mixtreme "no latency" input monitoring passes the analog input through or goes through an AD/DA? I have been to several studios where the headphone feed has a slight delay (AD/DA, I think) and it was enough to be distracting. Thanks.

Since Steve hasn't replied yet I thought I'd jump in on this. :)

The Mixtreme's and Mixpander Power Pak's (essentially the same as far as these functions go) work extremely well in this regards. In many years of use with different situations and lots of players, including professional studio guys, I've never once had a problem with this. I don't think this is something that you'd ever have a problem with in terms of any latency that you'd even remotely be aware of with the Soundscape products.

I used to know exactly what the figure is but don't recall at the moment... Maybe it's 1 sample? or 2 samples? It's *very* small.. I know that. I just don't think of this at all and haven't for years now. In the Soundscape cards this has simply always worked... period.

I generally use the monitoring function directly in the Soundscape mixer and select it on or off there on a track by track basis. With this the Daw program doesn't even have to be on and the mixer essentially works similar to a piece of hardware and you could use this as a "live" mixer if you wanted.

You can also set the monitoring switching to work from SAWStudio if you use the DWave driver and have the "Auto Audio-Monitor Switching Protocol" set. This will give you auto muting of the input monitoring when not in record or record ready.

Hope this helps,

Perry

[Naturally Digital]

You can also set the monitoring switching to work from SAWStudio if you use the DWave driver and have the "Auto Audio-Monitor Switching Protocol" set. This will give you auto muting of the input monitoring when not in record or record ready. Hi Perry,

I've never tried this. Would you mind describing how you're setting this up when you get a minute? My first assumption is that this is similar to checking/unchecking the "Mix Input Always" option of the track modules in the Soundscape mixer. Is that what the auto-mute is doing?

Thanks.

[TotalSonic]

yup!! - What Perry said! - :D

(I think he worded it better than I could have anyway!)
Mixtreme 192 or Mixpander are definitely one of the best choices for a SAW rig I can think of.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bob L]

Mark,

SAWStudio already allows live input monitoring... it has ever since the Live Mode went in long ago... that's how I did the entire Lon Bronson project... mixing through my virtual mixer while recording flat... I was free to use eq and compression and any other plugins I wanted on my monitor mix. I could have easily also sent up to 6 stereo aux mixes back to the stage if needed... all virtual... it all depends on the soundcard driver's ability to acheive the low latency buffer settings.

The new 4.0 only adds the live switching option from Source to MT...this will function just like a typical 24 track machine... only there will be no loss in quality due to signal having to come from the Record Sync head. :)

This will add the ability to have input channels live switch from MT region playback to input source when you push the Rec button to punch in... at the moment, once set to Input source mode, they no longer directly playback what's on the MT track, except in the special mode of a Shift-Playback.

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

Since Steve hasn't replied yet I thought I'd jump in on this. :)

The Mixtreme's and Mixpander Power Pak's (essentially the same as far as these functions go) work extremely well in this regards. In many years of use with different situations and lots of players, including professional studio guys, I've never once had a problem with this. I don't think this is something that you'd ever have a problem with in terms of any latency that you'd even remotely be aware of with the Soundscape products.

I used to know exactly what the figure is but don't recall at the moment... Maybe it's 1 sample? or 2 samples? It's *very* small.. I know that. I just don't think of this at all and haven't for years now. In the Soundscape cards this has simply always worked... period.

I generally use the monitoring function directly in the Soundscape mixer and select it on or off there on a track by track basis. With this the Daw program doesn't even have to be on and the mixer essentially works similar to a piece of hardware and you could use this as a "live" mixer if you wanted.

You can also set the monitoring switching to work from SAWStudio if you use the DWave driver and have the "Auto Audio-Monitor Switching Protocol" set. This will give you auto muting of the input monitoring when not in record or record ready.

Hope this helps,

Perry
As always, lots of useful info. Thanks Perry. And Steve, too, although you'd think he'd post faster, being out of work and all. :p

[bcorkery]

you'd think he'd post faster, being out of work and all. :p :eek: That's a Cold Shot Baby

[TotalSonic]

As always, lots of useful info. Thanks Perry. And Steve, too, although you'd think he'd post faster, being out of work and all. :p

Well - geez - the weather is kind of nice out though! I'm spending too much time in front of the computer as it is already!!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Mark Stebbeds]

Mark,

SAWStudio already allows live input monitoring...

<snip>

The new 4.0 only adds the live switching option from Source to MT...this will function just like a typical 24 track machine... only there will be no loss in quality due to signal having to come from the Record Sync head. :)

This will add the ability to have input channels live switch from MT region playback to input source when you push the Rec button to punch in...

Is this a zero latency hardware input switching feature?

Mark

[AudioAstronomer]

Well - geez - the weather is kind of nice out though! I'm spending too much time in front of the computer as it is already!!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Weather is awesome over here, 20-30mph winds and going higher! Surf and kiteboard time ohhh yeahhh :D :D :D

[Ian Alexander]

:eek: That's a Cold Shot Baby
Only fired because of Steve's rep as a level-headed guy, and because of his apparent well-adjusted response to his change in circumstances. No harm intended. Others have said it, but for a guy like Steve, this is only a opportunity.

[Bob L]

No mark... it is all done in software... therefore will have whatever the lowest latency buffer settings your system can handle... but... it is truly the more powerful way to work, because the entire virtual console routing and processing is involved in the monitor mixes and aux sends... you can actually do what you used to do with a Studer 24 track and a Neve console in the old days. :)

Bob L

[Carl G.]

Back on track....
I was just headed to buy that InspectorXL....
I found that invariably it dropped out my audio for a duration of 1/2 second about every 60 seconds or so.
In the same session....Tons of plugins... no audio drop out...
then with IXL....I get drop out.
EVEN with No plugins... with IXL pluged in... I get dropout.
Is that something the demo does on purpose?
....I do like the metering options... but what would Tom Dowd say if you couldn't even hear the audio!!!!
"Hey.... I'ma gonna come in there and slop paint all over the SPEAKERS!!"
:)

[Jay Q]

I found that invariably it dropped out my audio for a duration of 1/2 second about every 60 seconds or so.
In the same session....Tons of plugins... no audio drop out...
then with IXL....I get drop out.
EVEN with No plugins... with IXL pluged in... I get dropout.
Is that something the demo does on purpose?Is it a time-limited demo? If not, then the answer to your question is almost certainly "yes". Drop-out is common in demo plugs.

Jay

[Mark Stebbeds]

... you can actually do what you used to do with a Studer 24 track and a Neve console in the old days. :)

Bob L

Been doing that.

Mark

[Carl G.]

Is it a time-limited demo? If not, then the answer to your question is almost certainly "yes". Drop-out is common in demo plugs.

Jay
I'll write.
Their plugs simply show a 'demo' face every minute or so with short downdown after which you may click the face to get the program back (all without loss to the audio). However, these drop outs are happening when the meter is functioning.

[Naturally Digital]

I'll write.
Their plugs simply show a 'demo' face every minute or so with short downdown after which you may click the face to get the program back (all without loss to the audio). However, these drop outs are happening when the meter is functioning.Hi Carl,

I've got the demo installed on my surfing machine here and I'm getting a drop-out at around 45-50sec. I think it's just the demo but who knows?

[Cary B. Cornett]

Hi Carl,

I've got the demo installed on my surfing machine here and I'm getting a drop-out at around 45-50sec. I think it's just the demo but who knows?

You know, I never bothered with the demo, I just bought and installed. I can tell you that there is NO audio dropout here. IXL is running just fine on a full mix. Also, I was reading the manual today, and in there it makes a point of saying that IXL does NOT change the audio in any way, only "reads" it.

[Carl G.]

Hi Carl,

I've got the demo installed on my surfing machine here and I'm getting a drop-out at around 45-50sec. I think it's just the demo but who knows?
That's good news.
(maybe it's meant to be that way)
I have an email in to them now.

(EDIT)..I just got the reply back.... It's just the demo that drops out audio.
I just bought it.
I like the variety in one box - a valueable compliment to Bob's Freq. Analyzer (even though I have SpectRPro also).

[Perry]

Hi Carl,

I've got the demo installed on my surfing machine here and I'm getting a drop-out at around 45-50sec. I think it's just the demo but who knows?

Pretty sure that's the demo doing that Dave. :)

Perry

[Perry]

Hi Perry,

I've never tried this. Would you mind describing how you're setting this up when you get a minute? My first assumption is that this is similar to checking/unchecking the "Mix Input Always" option of the track modules in the Soundscape mixer. Is that what the auto-mute is doing?

Thanks.

Hi Dave! :)

Sorry for the delay... got tied up. (and just got the knots loose. ;) )

I haven't used this in a long time mind you and I'm giving you this from memory... but, you would want to first turn off all input monitoring from the Mixtreme mixer. Then in SAWStudio turn on the auto input monitoring feature by checking the appropriate fuction.

Then any time you go into record (or record ready) you should get input monitoring on all selected record channels. That's assuming you have the proper routing of signals of course. And when you stop and come out of record or use normal play then the inputs should be muted.

This only works I believe with the DWave driver.

Give it a try! :)

Cheers,
Perry

[Sebastian Eskildsen]

I do this more or less every day, live monitoring works with all driver types,
and it works perfect with Mixtream.

Sebastian

[Carl G.]

and I bought it for the phase meter.
MM
David, Michael, Cary, Perry (and whoever else) ....
I just bought the inspectorXL and it repeatedly crashes my entire system (XP) when I have up the Multimeter and right click in the spectrogram.
(right clicking toggles spectrogram through some other functions)
The crash happens when it's in the Spectrogram function when I right click on it.

Does the same thing happen to any one of you guys?

[Tree Leopard]

I just bought the inspectorXL and it repeatedly crashes my entire system (XP) when I have up the Multimeter and right click in the spectrogram.
(right clicking toggles spectrogram through some other functions)
The crash happens when it's in the Spectrogram function when I right click on it.

Does the same thing happen to any one of you guys?Carl - Oh my Gawd...
Nope - aside from the read-out issue - everything else has been fine over here from day one. Using XP. Interesting to see what EAS says... After all this, your plug-in idea is looking attractive. ;)

Andre

[jeromee]

I was using the demo and had the multimeter up, switching the spectrum analyzer window views while my audio was playing and got an immediate crash and forced shutdown of SAW. Maybe it's just me and a driver conflict?
Hey Carl I posted this when I was first demoing it....

Yep... Still happening to me

I tested it in Samplitude8 and Ntrack. No crashes on those.
??????????
I thought it was just me with a driver conflict but after a little use on another machine with SP2 it still shuts down immediatly.

[Cary B. Cornett]

David, Michael, Cary, Perry (and whoever else) ....
I just bought the inspectorXL and it repeatedly crashes my entire system (XP) when I have up the Multimeter and right click in the spectrogram.
(right clicking toggles spectrogram through some other functions)
The crash happens when it's in the Spectrogram function when I right click on it.

Does the same thing happen to any one of you guys?

My DAW is on W2k, but I ran the test just now, switching modes (right click) in the spectrum analyzer of the Multimeter with no problems. No hiccups at all.

[Carl G.]

My DAW is on W2k, but I ran the test just now, switching modes (right click) in the spectrum analyzer of the Multimeter with no problems. No hiccups at all.
Thanks Cary....
Looks like Jeromee and I should keep with Tech to see the Marvin e of this ("What's Goin' On')...

Jeromee, I'm running Matrox P750 but with single monitor now....
'how's about you?
Other variables?
It might help well for you to write tech with your variables... they sound interested in working out any possible bugs.

[jeromee]

Carl

I'm running a P4 3ghz 512 meg ram, single monitor, XP home SP1. Like I stated before, they work great in my other apps. Wednesday night I switched the frequency analyzer plug(by itself) the same way, not the multimeter, and SAW froze with the audio still running. I had to do a ctl/alt/del to close the app. It seems to be relating to switching to the 1/3 oct window in the freq analyzer plug. I sent an email to EAS asking them to check this out. We shall see.
J

[Carl G.]

Carl

I'm running a P4 3ghz 512 meg ram, single monitor, XP home SP1. Like I stated before, they work great in my other apps. Wednesday night I switched the frequency analyzer plug(by itself) the same way, not the multimeter, and SAW froze with the audio still running. I had to do a ctl/alt/del to close the app. It seems to be relating to switching to the 1/3 oct window in the freq analyzer plug. I sent an email to EAS asking them to check this out. We shall see.
J
Exactly...see my post in the other thread.
Funny thing is... the demo DIDN"T do that!

[Carl G.]

Exactly...see my post in the other thread.
Funny thing is... the demo DIDN"T do that!
Jeromee,
I think I'm getting this nailed down!!
Lots of testing. sorry for the long post.
Has to do with Plugins. I've narrowed down two examples that caused crashes consistantly when IXL is plugged into output. (running 44.1Khz, 24bit). I believe that perhaps IXL can't handle certain plugs that use buffers a certain way, like the Levelizer. (hopefully there is a way they can trap that out).

Here's the results of 6 solid hours of testing:
Hope this helps...

It appears the corruption of IXL Spectrogram (both alone and in the Multimeter) is EDL specific with SawStudio. Therefore it is happening because of an incompatibility with the very basic building block of Saw Mixing: The Studio Levelizer. Also the IXL corruption happens when Sonic Foundry's Graphic Dynamics is plugged in the session.
It appears as though IXL can't handle a certain way these plugs do buffers.
Here are the test: #1 with Sonic Foundry Only.... and #2 with SS Levelizer Only

Test 1: IXL Multimeter with Sonic Foundry Graphic Dynamic:
5 sec after switch and a mouse move across screen yielded an (white screen box) error: "Unknown
Error" while SS kept playing. Closing out IXL then SFGD allowed me to keep SS open and functional.
Note: when I bring back up IXL the peak numbers of the verticle meter are flickering rapidly. The
strange thing is when I play audio now the left one appears to be working with the meter and the
right one is stuck on -4.93 no matter what the meter is doing. Also the Spectrum Analyzer's FFT and
Spectrum Analyzer portions flicker rapidly. Then when I stop playback everything falls to zero BUT
the peak indicators are stuck at Left: 5.99 and right: -4.93 with both rms stuck at -15.4. (and
Master Alarm light stays on)

Here's the other wierd part:
When I remove the Sonic Foundry Graphic Dynamic Plug playback functions well but now the IXL
Multimeter continues it's corrupt behavior.
ALSO Wierd is: When tried to remove the only remaining plug - IXL plug, then SawStudio crashed (with
error showing this program is crashing).
Also when exiting SawStudio, I get a SS crash (saying the program is closing out...sorry).
Also when SFGD is just plugged in (not adjusted for any action)... IXL works perfectly.
As soon as SF is adjusted for action on the audio.... problems in IXL.
IXL becomes corrupt... and if try to remove corrupt IXL plug from EDL... it crashes Sawstudio

Tried just Plugging in SFGD with no adjustment threshold (no action). Still crash when making fast
mouse movement across screen!


Test 2: IXL Multimeter with Levelizer:
Compressor ON ONLY: No problems
Limiter ON ONLY - Threshold adjusted for limiting: When changing modes of Spectrum Analyzer then IXL
gives 'unknown warning error' but if I quickly close IXL out, SS continues to function properly.
(I Suspect somethings going on with Buffer usage/timing that IXL multimeter can't handle).
Limiter ON ONLY - Threshold adjusted for NO limiting: Same behavior is when threshold is adjusted for limiting.

Interesting note on Test 2:
When trying to reopen the MultiMeter I get an IXL error: "Cannot open editor window. An unknown
error has occured". Clicking OK yields a messed up bare bones bit map view of the Mulitmeter.
I can repeat trying to open it with the same results... but SS doesn't crash.
When I try to remove the plug... SawStudio Crashes with a SawStudio error - "Sorry we're closing
down" (etc).

Maybe Bob can give them some clues. Like for instance.... Bob, what is the buffer handling difference between the Compressor and the Levelizer (I forgot)?

[jeromee]

Great work Carl!!!

You sure do have more patience than me:D Thanks for working so hard to figure this out. I haven't heard back from support yet.

I was running the levelizer on my bus channels 2/3/4 and on my master with the multimeter last thing on post. I was getting the flickering as well. Our problems are identical:confused: Thanks again
J

[Bob L]

The Levelizer Limiting function alters buffer sizes on the fly... something certain other plugs and even my own Live Input Mode has trouble with. It chases zero crossing points, which are random depending on the audio data stream.

All other Levelizer functions do not alter buffer sizes... this is why the limiter function is not built into the channel modules... it would cause unexplained havoc depending on what else is going on in the session.

The Normalize function depends on the Limiter function.

Bob L

[Carl G.]

The Levelizer Limiting function alters buffer sizes on the fly... something certain other plugs and even my own Live Input Mode has trouble with. It chases zero crossing points, which are random depending on the audio data stream.

All other Levelizer functions do not alter buffer sizes... this is why the limiter function is not built into the channel modules... it would cause unexplained depending on what else is going on in the session.

The Normalize function depends on the Limiter function.

Bob L
Thanks Bob!
I was just now able to further nail it down to exact portion of the EAS IXL plugin that is incompatible with variable buffer sizes on the fly! (like Levelizer's Peak Limit/Normalize functions).
It's the Spectram Analyzers' "1/3 Octive Analyzer" !!!! (just the 1/3 Oct. part...NOT the Specragram, nor switching away from it). But I'm not sure what part - or all of it. When I tested it the Peak & RMS readouts were the first things to flicker while playback happily continued...... then the plug crashes...then Studio Crashes...and sometimes the entire Operating System!! - Freezeup..cured by reboot.
BTW...Fortunately, I can do without their 1/3 Oct. portion of the Spectrum Analyzer plug because I already have the great RML Freq Analyzer!! (I really like everything else in IXL plugin, hence the time I've spent figuring this out)

I see 3 cures at this point.
1. EAS put a optional trap in the 1/3 Octive Analyzer for SS Owners (somehow to block out which ever portions of that plug that require fixed buffer sizes... for instance, maybe just the Peak Indicators - hopefully not the whole 1/3 Oct Analyzer:). Note: This problem also occures with a Sonic Foundry Plugin also!
2. EAS Remove functionality of the "1/3 Octive Analyzer" but KEEP the Spectragram and FFT functions active for SawStudio Owners (and others who will encounter the same problems).
3. SawStudio owners don't use the 1/3 Octive Analyzer section when a plug that alters buffers on the fly is patched in the same session (for instance, the Levelizer's Limit/Normalize) It WILL crash your SawStudio and possibly cause your system to hang. Instead, simply buy SawStudio's Freq Analyzer for that function.

Hopefully items 1 or 2 can be accomplished. I'll email them.

Carl

[Dingo]

FYI I have had zero problems with any of the IXL plugs or portions of plugs with anything else running at the same time including the levelizer and freq analyizer.

[Naturally Digital]

FYI I have had zero problems with any of the IXL plugs or portions of plugs with anything else running at the same time including the levelizer and freq analyizer.Yeah, this (the 'sensitivity' of the other plugs to changing buffer sizes) has always been a little variable and intermittant in it's showing up. I remember that I stopped using the Inspector plugin because it didn't seem to get along with the Levelizer.

[Carl G.]

FYI I have had zero problems with any of the IXL plugs or portions of plugs with anything else running at the same time including the levelizer and freq analyizer.
I have no problems either :)
Except just ONe certain aspect of One particular plug in one specific circumstance. Unless you're viewing that One particular aspect of that one particular plug in that one specific circumstance... you will think you have no problem.
Have you specifically tried to:
View the 1/3 octave analyzer with the Levelizer plug patched in front of it with (the crucial part) the LIMITER turned on and (must) have the threshold set to limit an obvious amount? Then start and stop playback several times... then if that doesn't do crash things ... view the Spectragram and move back to the 1/3 oct. while in the play mode with the above patches... maybe try to click in the 1/3 Oct graph a few times for readout _while viewing the 1/3 Oct Graph_ during playback. Do you have the peak meters active in the 1/3 Oct analyzer also?

[Carl G.]

I'm impressed with EAS support/tech staff.
They are committed to their product and its customers.
Here's a snippet of the reply from them indicating they're on it.
____________
"Thank you for providing us with information to help us to reproduce this issue. That information should go a long way in helping us identify the cause of, and develop a solution for, this problem.

I will keep you posted on the status of this issue as we continue our investigations. Thank you, again, for all your time and effort and thank you for your patience while we work to address this problem."
____________

[John Hernandez]

I'm impressed with EAS support/tech staff.
They are committed to their product and its customers.
Here's a snippet of the reply from them indicating they're on it.
____________
"Thank you for providing us with information to help us to reproduce this issue. That information should go a long way in helping us identify the cause of, and develop a solution for, this problem.

I will keep you posted on the status of this issue as we continue our investigations. Thank you, again, for all your time and effort and thank you for your patience while we work to address this problem."
____________

Hmm...reminds me of another outfit with impreSSive support/tech staff, committed to their product and its customers ;) ...

[mako]

Hmm...reminds me of another outfit with impreSSive support/tech staff, committed to their product and its customers ;) ...

Mmmmm - nice one John

mako

[Bob L]

Elemental Audio contacted me and sent me the plugin and a good clue as to where the problem was... the problem is now fixed.

I will have an update shortly with a few other adjustments as well.

Bob L

[Tree Leopard]

Bob - thats good news.

Thanks Carl G for the intensive testing. ;) And yes, looks like EAS really care about their products.

Andre

[Naturally Digital]

Elemental Audio contacted me and sent me the plugin and a good clue as to where the problem was... the problem is now fixed.

I will have an update shortly with a few other adjustments as well.That's awesome!!

[Carl G.]

Elemental Audio contacted me and sent me the plugin and a good clue as to where the problem was... the problem is now fixed.

I will have an update shortly with a few other adjustments as well.

Bob L
That's absolutely awesome!
Thanks very much Bob!!!
Tech service and product development - par excellance!

[jeromee]

THANKS CARL !!!!!! Your hard work is much appreciated!!!!

THANKS BOB !!!!!

That is true service from these software developers, SS & EAS :D