DSD and SAWSTUDIO

[Ollie]

I have been reading some information on the DSD format. From what I understand, it has been around for a while. From what I read, the sonics are suppose to be vastly superior to the PCM format.

Bob,
I was wondering if in the future you envision SAW using DSD? Yes or no, I would like to hear your opinions on it. Thanks.

[Ian Alexander]

This was discussed some months ago. I searched for dsd, but got the "too short" error. Any way around this when the thing you're looking for is just a short word?

[Ollie]

I had the same problem with the search as well.

[TotalSonic]

DSD support in SAWStudio would involve a complete rewrite of the software from Bob. My guess is that this would be a huge and daunting task and if he were to attempt such a monumental recoding I would prefer to see him spend the efforts on a port to Linux instead.

If you are interested in DSD I would recommend looking into Merging's Pyramix instead as it already is well developed and works great for DSD and is reasonably priced compared to things like Sonoma. Also - be aware that DSD requires completely different hardware than PCM so your current sound cards and converters could not be used.

Anyway - "vastly superior" sound than PCM? Depends on what you are comparing it to. Against typical prosumer 16bit converters then DSD usually wins hands down. Against well recorded and mastered 24bit/96kHz PCM then the playing field is a bit more level - in fact both hi-res PCM and DSD have their supporters as one being better than the other - and I simply have not had the opportunity to hear an A/B/X blind test myself to form an opinion of my own in this regard. At this point both DVD-A and SACD have both essentially failed on the consumer market (although they have a established small niche's with audiophiles - which may allow them to continue as for at least a bit into the future) while iPod's and the ilk took off - essentially convenience winning over fidelity.

A big disadvantage of SACD is that it is impossible to create a reference disc unless you want to go to the enormous expense of having the plant run you a slug. Another disadvantage is that in order to process DSD streams for the most part you need to convert to PCM or go out to the analog realm and convert back. Also there is much more processing power needed for DSD multitracking than PCM so unless you have an enormously expensive system your amount of simultaneous tracks is more limited.

Got to say that I heard an SACD remaster of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue that sounded truly awesome - but this could have also been due to the massively expensive monitor system I was listening to for the demo.

There are a number of folks who also like Tascam's inexpensive DVR-1000 recorder as a DSD capture device for their 2 track mixes - but I have yet to hear this in comparison to high end PCM AD converters or simple PCM in-the-box bounce to discs - so again I have no opinion as to whether these are worth investing in.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Tree Leopard]

Ollie - more discussion re:the pros and cons of DSD can be found here...
http://www.sawstudiouser.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2759

Andre

[Sebastian Eskildsen]

Hi Ollie

Go and look at the Axion converter from www.digitalaudio.dk,
It´s a DSD/DXD ad converter and output the signal in DXD and PCM(352050 khz) througe MADI connection, and as I undestand it Sony and Philips has taken the DXD format under there wings and also Merging already support it.

So the next thing that need to happen is RME and Sydec has to support
352050 khz on there new MADI soundcards.
SAW already support it, just type in the sample rate.
I have opsamplede some 44.1 khz files to 352050khz and played them back
in SS with the samplerate conv. set to good. and it worked fine, the next thing is to load the files into a Pyramix system and play them back througe the Axion converter.

Also go and call or write Peter Schalke at Digita audio Denmark, he is a very nice guy who will tell many interesting things about there products.

Sebastian
guy who knows what is

[Sebastian Eskildsen]

The sample rate is 352.8 khz. sorry

Sebastian

[Tim Miskimon]

I mentioned DSD on this or the other forum last year and it was widely dismissed although I keep reading and hearing how nice it is.
I was planning on buying the new Tascam stand alone unit that does both DSD and up to 192 PCM recording.
I think it would make a nice 2 track machine for archiving since it uses both CDR & DVD disks - It sells for $1200.
My main complaint is that I wished it had an onboard hard drive instead of going straight to disk.
The draw back with DSD is that there are only a few editors available and they are very expensive.
DSD & PCM are very different and I don't think Bob or any of the other DAW developers are ready to design any software for it at this time or any time in the near future. It's a shame that the better formats don't always win out - can you say BETA???

[Tim Miskimon]

Hi Ollie

Go and look at the Axion converter from www.digitalaudio.dk,
It´s a DSD/DXD ad converter and output the signal in DXD and PCM(352050 khz) througe MADI connection, and as I undestand it Sony and Philips has taken the DXD format under there wings and also Merging already support it.

So the next thing that need to happen is RME and Sydec has to support
352050 khz on there new MADI soundcards.
SAW already support it, just type in the sample rate.
I have opsamplede some 44.1 khz files to 352050khz and played them back
in SS with the samplerate conv. set to good. and it worked fine, the next thing is to load the files into a Pyramix system and play them back througe the Axion converter.

Also go and call or write Peter Schalke at Digita audio Denmark, he is a very nice guy who will tell many interesting things about there products.

Sebastian
guy who knows what is

DSD runs at something like 2.8 Mhz not Khz - Saw doesn't get any where near that sampling rate. It also is a 1 bit system.
Just thought I'd pass that along.
Tim

[TotalSonic]

DSD runs at something like 2.8 Mhz not Khz - Saw doesn't get any where near that sampling rate. It also is a 1 bit system.
Just thought I'd pass that along.
Tim

The point of the 352.8 khz PCM sample rate is that at 24bit it contains every bit of data in the 2.8224MHz sample rate of DSD at 1bit. So currently this is favored as the rate to use in digital conversions between DSD and PCM, as theoretically you're not losing anything.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Sebastian Eskildsen]

And to make it even better, DXD runs at double DSD sample rate,
the smart part about the Axion converter is you get DXD at 5 bit or 1 bit at 5,6 mhz, but also at pcm 24/352.8 khz.

This mean you get rid of the 1 bit noise that the original 1 bit format has.

Sebastian

[spiritman]

This is the (near) reality. It is comming. So Hold on to your 8 track tapes boy's and girls!
I don't uderstand why this is not embraced here? With the new 64bit operating sys. Cheap hard drives. Memory prices going down (I read this here on another thead). We have true digital HiFi! I mean better than analog specs. It is comming. Well, I have been saying this here for a long time.

[Ollie]

Thanks Tree. I will look at this link. I have been reading a few articles on DSD and the sonics are suppose to be wonderful. I have never heard it, but I thought that others here might of.

Also, does the technology of the file format preclude Saw from ever using that data?

If the data format and this technology offers large gains in sonics, and if the newer breed of machines can handle the thruput and processing, then I think we will eventually see this technology make its way down to more implementations.


Ollie - more discussion re:the pros and cons of DSD can be found here...
http://www.sawstudiouser.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2759

Andre

[Ollie]

I was wondering what Bob's impressions of the DSD technology and if he sees it as where the future is going.

[Bob L]

Don't really have an opinion one way of the other yet... I'm still creating some of the smoothest sounding recordings I have heard using straight 44.1 - 16 bit none dithered data...

When I compare these to new cds I purchase... done with all the latest and greatest tecnology and recording techniques... I'm still happier with what I'm doing... in most cases...

Obviously... DSD looks like it requires a major internal redesign... is it worth it... I have no idea yet.

There are many more factors involved in creating clean and smooth and exciting sounding mixes than just the choice of high-end gear and high samplerates or specialized sampling technology... 44.1 or 48k sampling at 16 or 24 bits can still generate a wonderfully warm and clean sound if the math is handled carefully and over squashed mix techinques don't trash the final product.

Bob L

[brent]

Don't really have an opinion one way of the other yet... I'm still creating some of the smoothest sounding recordings I have heard using straight 44.1 - 16 bit none dithered data...

When I compare these to new cds I purchase... done with all the latest and greatest tecnology and recording techniques... I'm still happier with what I'm doing... in most cases...

Obviously... DSD looks like it requires a major internal redesign... is it worth it... I have no idea yet.

There are many more factors involved in creating clean and smooth and exciting sounding mixes than just the choice of high-end gear and high samplerates or specialized sampling technology... 44.1 or 48k sampling at 16 or 24 bits can still generate a wonderfully warm and clean sound if the math is handled carefully and over squashed mix techinques don't trash the final product.

Bob L

DAWs like Pyramix convert the DSD to PCM for editing. Any DSD advantage is lost. So, SAWStudio has more advanced editing than what is possible with DSD.

The reason that the major DSD multitrack is just a multitrack is that you cannot have a true DSD mixer. Ever. All current "DSD mixers" actually convert to PCM and then back again.

Sony holds the bag on proper conversion chips. So all of the third party convertors are not sampling high enough yet. I was looking into the one and only true DSD multitrack, and it is stupid expensive. Not even considering the cost of the ultra high-end convertors (Genex, Prism or...), you are looking at $4ok.