Laptop Users.. what kind of A/D converters are you using?

[BillyK]

I was curious what those of you who are using a laptop either for Live Mode or field recording are using for a D/A (soundcard).

I have access to (because I am a dealer) the Sound Devices USB-Pre product which works great if you just need two channels, but in the case of field recording such as Bob L's recordings of the bands in the training videos I wonder what sound cards you guys are using? Also.. how many channels are you using for these live recordings?

Another product I deal with is the Lynx product line and they now have the Aurora 8 or Aurora 16 units. The L22 card is typically used to control the Aurora rack units... but I guess in order to use a L22 with a laptop one would have to have a docking station with a card slot in it. I have not investigated docking stations for my Toshiba laptop.. so I am not even sure whats out there. I would imagine that possibly someone is making a setup which connects through the PCMCIA slot... if so, please fill me in.

Thanks,
BillyK

[BillyK]

Just checked with Toshiba and none of their so-called docking stations allow for a card to be plugged into a slot. I guess if I were going to go that route I would need to find a third party mfg. who would connect to my laptop (Toshiba Satellite - A75-S213) via FireWire. However, I am not sure of the data transfer rate and whether its possible to stream 16 channels of audio data through firewire. I will probably ask the guys at Lynx on that one.

So anyway.. I am thinking that something that connects through the PCMCIA is probably the way to go so I am still curious what you guys are using.

BillyK

[paul kostabi]

RME Hammerfall Multiface with RME Octamic works perfect.
I usually use 8 analog in but have used 16 through the litepipe.

[studio-c]

I'm using a Layla24 with a PC Card interface. As a backup, I carry an IndIO card.

[BillyK]

Paul - the RME stuff looks like an interesting solution.

Studio-C - The Layla with the PC Card interface... is that a PCMCIA slot card?

[studio-c]

Paul - the RME stuff looks like an interesting solution.

Studio-C - The Layla with the PC Card interface... is that a PCMCIA slot card?
Yes. Before USB 2.0 I was having better luck with PCMCIA than with USB1. I had bought a Tascam US122 and it never worked right. To this day, I can't get the Icon to go away from the hardware item list.

Anyway, the PC slot connection seems to be really solid.

I have since bought a small "Phonic Helix" board with a built in USB output. It's pretty sweet too. And for under 200 bucks you get a mixer comparable to Mackie/Alesis/Behringer AND USB interface. Simple elegant solution.

Scott

[Bob L]

The RME Cardbus with a digiface box and 3 Behringer ADA8000 units gives you 24 chans of phantom powered mic ins or line ins... they sound very good regardless of the cheap price... of course if you have the budget, you can substitue for more expensive converters... but I doubt you would ever tell the difference, especially in a live recording situation.

Bob L

[DominicPerry]

I've looked into using a Lynx PCI card with a laptop. You will need a Magma chassis - they're quite expensive. There are a couple of other considerations. You need to avoid Ricoh Cardbus controllers in your laptop as they don't work with Magma chassis for some reason. Lynx also told me that there are two chipsets in the Magma chassis and that only one version works. I'll dig out the email for the detail.
I didn't go for this option in the end as it became quite expensive and less portable - the Magma chassis needs it's own PSU and so does the Aurora. You ust use a Lynx Two or Lynx22 card to connect to the Aurora - the Lynx One doesn't have the correct port. Or you can use the LynxAES card. Beware that the Magma half-length chassis is too short for the Lynx half length cards - you'd have to get the full length chassis.
I have only seen a couple of alternatives to the Magma and I would stick to what other people have used - at least Magma have tried Lynx and Lynx know about Magma.

Dominic

[Steve L]

Firewire 1814 from M'audio for multitrack (firewire) 8 analog and 8 optical
possible
Also the Fast Track Pro for 2/4 channel i/o. One drawback to the FT Pro
it has to have Win XP SP2.
Several other units from M'Audio have been tested and work fine. Driver support is very good IMO.


Steve L.
Audio-Video Electronics
Mountain View Recording

[Bob L]

This was a recent development... the drivers were not very efficient a year or two ago, in my opinion... and they were hung on using odd size buffers that forced me to modify my engine to even use the ASIO version... this resulted in less than optimum performance... but I just installed a FW410 for a client the other day and was pleasantly surprised... performance on a very inexpensive system was glitch-free at 1 x 64 ASIO... I actually set the system up at 3 x 64 for a little headroom... I will be doing sessions next week on the box and am anxious to see if it remains stable under load.

Bob L

[Bill Park]

I'm using the RME, but with outboard converters. When I need smal and light, I use the RME converters. As Bob says, you have cheap alternatives.

I regularly recommend Lynx or RME, but for mobile work, it is RME all the way.

Bill

[Dave Labrecque]

BillyK,

I'm using an RME Digiface (24 lightpipe I/O) that interfaces with my laptop via RME's CardBus PCMCIA card. So far I have a single Behringer ADA8000 (8 channel mic pre and ADDA), and plan on adding more as the need (hopefully) arises. You can do quite a bit of routing and stuff using SAW's mixer capabilities as well as the TotalMix software mixer, which comes with the Digiface and other RME interfaces.

[BillyK]

It sure seems like the RME Digiface via RME's CardBus PCMCIA card is a good way for me to go. (I do notice the its now called the Digiface II, haven't figured out yet whether that is a replacement for, or an addition to the Digiface).

The Behringer ADA8000 & RME Octamic have been mentioned as possible mic preamps. Also, there was a mention of more expensive units. I'm not even sure at this point if the RME Octamic or the Behringer ADA8000 is more expensive. What are the other options?

[BillyK]

After a little Googling it seems as though the "going price" for the Behringer ADA8000 is 1/3 the cost of the RME Octamic. BobL seems to indicate that he felt there is not much noticeable difference in the units in a "Live" application and I know he has recorded a ton out in Vegas. Does anyone differ with that line of thinking?

[BillyK]

After reading some comments on another well known recording site I am a bit concerned about the performance of the "inxepensive" micpre/AtoD units we are discussing. I wont repeat what I read because I don't like to dump on Mfg's unless it is from my own personal experience.. but lets just say I am now leaning toward the RME and am still curious about the other higher end units available.

Bill

[sstillwell]

I've used the ADA8000 and liked it just fine. I probably wouldn't use it for the money channel in a studio situation, but then you're usually looking for color in a pre, and these are pretty neutral.

For the money, you really can't go wrong. If you can afford the Octapre, you sure can't go wrong with it, either. Just depends on where you're coming from.

Scott

[Bob L]

Spend the money if you have it... but I can tell you... there is nothing at all wrong with the Behringer mic pres... the Lon Bronson project threw a lot of tough stuff at them with the high trumpet parts... they held up perfectly... never splatting... they sounded extremely natural... don't believe the people who dis them simply because of the cost... they are a great value.

Bob L

[Base1studio]

I'm using the Digiface/Cardbus combination as well. On the front though I'm using a Presonus Digimax LT and a Behringer ADA8000. I also have in the rack a Fostex VC8 that can be used but honestly, I haven't needed to yet. In most of the live recordings I've done so far, 16 tracks has been plenty. As far as sound quality, I can't really tell much difference between the Presonus and the Behringer, but I do like the fact that Presonus has a pad on every channel and individual Phantom powers.

[BillyK]

A question for those of you using the RME Cardbus & Digiface. (Though it seems the current model is the Digiface II).

I am trying to determine alternative options to the RME Octamic preamps. BobL has already suggested the Behringer 8 channel mic pre's but I have access to as couple Mackie Onyx800's. The thing is that the Onyx 800 has a D/A built in to the box which duplicates the funtion of the Digiface. However from my research it seems as though the CardBus will only communicate to the outside world through another RME product such as the Digiface II. I think that the Mackie Onyx would connect to the Digiface through the ADAT lightpipe, but I may be wrong?

As an alternative does anyone know of another PCMCIA card that would interface to the Onyx 800R's more directly? The other question would be if so, how would one monitor the "mix" of the inputs? I believe that using the RME products this is accomplished through the headphone jack on the Digiface? Is that correct? Do I have any options (2) Onyx800 units?

Thanks

[BillyK]

Speaking of Behringer.... http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-263862A1.doc

Potential Million Dollar Fine from the FCC?

[Bill Park]

I am trying to determine alternative options to the RME Octamic preamps. BobL has already suggested the Behringer 8 channel mic pre's but I have access to as couple Mackie Onyx800's. The thing is that the Onyx 800 has a D/A built in to the box which duplicates the funtion of the Digiface. However from my research it seems as though the CardBus will only communicate to the outside world through another RME product such as the Digiface II. I think that the Mackie Onyx would connect to the Digiface through the ADAT lightpipe, but I may be wrong?




First, the Digiface has no converters at all. It simply takes 24 channels of lightpipe/adat and passes it into and out of the computer (along with all of the other cool things that it does.) The Onyx does NOT duplicate the features of the Digiface. You can use the lightpipe/adat outputs of the Onyx 800 to plug into the Digiface. I don't know if the Digiface supports 192 or not. You can find out by reading the manual, available on the RME site. Youy might not want to pay for 192 if you are not going to be using it.

I've never heard of a Digiface II, though one might exist. I don't really follow that stuff, as I've got a Digiface and a Fireface. I'm done shopping for a while.

Yes, the Cardbus PC card from RME is a proprietary device, designed to work only with RME breakout boxes like the Digiface and Multiface and probably the Multiface II. (I don't know about that one.)

The Behringers that you speak of also have A/D and D/A in them. At $225, they are quite a deal. I have no idea what they sound like.

"As an alternative does anyone know of another PCMCIA card that would interface to the Onyx 800R's more directly?"

There IS no more direct way, there are simply other formats. ADAT is the cheapest and most common format in use.

"The other question would be if so, how would one monitor the "mix" of the inputs?"

The beauty and advantage of the RME HDSP cards is in a mixer applet called TotalMix which is a true matrix mixer that allows you to basically route any input or playback channel to any and/or all outputs, each with its own level. So you could set up a headphone mix for everyone in the band with independet volumes for each instrument at each output, to satisfy everyone... and still set your own monitor mix. You do not have to use the front panel output jack, which is much better in quality than the typical headphone jack and can be used to feed your monitors. Personally, as I have Mytek converters I feed those for my monitoring, from a pair of TotalMix outputs.

also, since you are mixing in the box, you really don't need so many outputs. You could buy something like the Samson box (I think that it is Samson, might be Sam Ash or some other such name...)that only has feeds into ADAT, no ability to recieve. So with one set of Behringers you would have 8 ins and 8 outs, plus the front panel Line Level outs... enough for monitoring and headphones, and then you could feed 16 channels of Samson in, for a total of 24 ins and 8 outs... same format as many consoles. But check that box... I'm not sure if it has mic pres, or if it is just a line level device.

Bill

[Mark Stebbeds]

Speaking of Behringer.... http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-263862A1.doc

Potential Million Dollar Fine from the FCC?

I remember a few years ago some problems/lawsuits Behringer had with Mackie regarding patent issues and their mixers. Don't know what became of it.

Mark

[Tim Miskimon]

I remember a few years ago some problems/lawsuits Behringer had with Mackie regarding patent issues and their mixers. Don't know what became of it.

Mark

Yeah,
They had to stop selling the Mackie ripoffs.
I was in a night club a few months ago and the sound guy had one of those early Behringer 24 X 8 consoles and it looked exactly like the Mackie analog 8 buss.
Same knobs, the flat meters were even the same. I don't know how they ever got that one out the door.
The guy bought it new for $300 right around the time Behringer was told to stop selling them.
It even sounds like the Mackie - but I won't go there...;)

[Bill Park]

Yeah,
They had to stop selling the Mackie ripoffs.......

That isn't exactly what happened, but close enough. Leave it to be said that both companies claimed victory, and both are still in business.

Some of you old timers may remember Rick C. who used to work for Mackie. They pulled a Behringer mixer apart and, except for one switch per channel, the controls on the circuit board fit perfectly through the milling in the face of the Mackie chassis. It blows my mind that Mackie could loose a lawsuit when presenting stuff like that.

Bill

[BillyK]

Bill Park: Thanks for the info above.

Regarding this latest Behringer "action" by the FCC, it seems as though this has to do with claiming products were FCC approved when the had not been tested. At least thats the way I read it. Not sure what products are involved.

BK

[Tim Miskimon]

That isn't exactly what happened, but close enough. Leave it to be said that both companies claimed victory, and both are still in business.

Some of you old timers may remember Rick C. who used to work for Mackie. They pulled a Behringer mixer apart and, except for one switch per channel, the controls on the circuit board fit perfectly through the milling in the face of the Mackie chassis. It blows my mind that Mackie could loose a lawsuit when presenting stuff like that.

Bill
I couldn't believe how close the Mackie 28-8 and Behringer were - even down to the knobs & on board meters.
Since the Mackie hit the market first I assumed Behringer was the ripoff.
Also many of Behringer's products are ripoffs of other products.
Most of their stuff is junk but every now and then they do come out with something good - like the controller & converters.

[spiritman]

Yes. Before USB 2.0 I was having better luck with PCMCIA than with USB1. I had bought a Tascam US122 and it never worked right. To this day, I can't get the Icon to go away from the hardware item list.

Anyway, the PC slot connection seems to be really solid.

I have since bought a small "Phonic Helix" board with a built in USB output. It's pretty sweet too. And for under 200 bucks you get a mixer comparable to Mackie/Alesis/Behringer AND USB interface. Simple elegant solution.

Scott

Hey Scott, I just ordered a CardBus interface (like yours) for my Layla24!! I really do like the sound this card has....
In both directions.....

[Bill Park]

Yes. Before USB 2.0 I was having better luck with PCMCIA than with USB1. I had bought a Tascam US122 and it never worked right. To this day, I can't get the Icon to go away from the hardware item list.



Scott

Interesting. I bought one to use as a remote test device (for use with SMAART) but I ended up using it for a lot of things with my laptop. I worked perfectly, in so far as I can expect out of a $150 device with that many features. (In other words, no operational problems, it was just not of the quality mic pres and such that i was used to using.)

When I removed it, it removed itself just fine.

Have you gone into msconfig and unchecked it? remove programs and removed it?

Bill

[MikeDee]

Hey Scott, I just ordered a CardBus interface (like yours) for my Layla24!! I really do like the sound this card has....
In both directions.....

I've been using the Layla24/CardBus for quite some time. Although I've been hearing great things here about RME (and I'm sure they're all true...RME certainly has earned its rep in da biz), I see no reason to make the switch...the Layla24 sounds too good to be replaced. I feel that, with this card and SAWStudio, I'm as close to analog as I can get (without the noise)...and I have no need to resort to a ton o' plug-ins to "recreate that analog vibe."

In fact, since the Layla24 sounds so great, I decided to pick up an Indigo dj [4-channel CardBus] for my "live" laptop...for $154.95, this li'l beast is kÃ*ck-a$$!! :cool:

Anyway, I wonder if and when I'll ever decide to get a new desktop unit...the Layla24's PCI card (my unit came with both interfaces) is just sitting on a shelf, waiting to be used, its anti-static cover gathering dust. :rolleyes:

Regards,

[Bob L]

If the ADA8000 is a ripoff... where is the original and competing product?

For $230 US, there is nothing as useful for what we do... and that represents such a high value in the industry, in my opinion.

Don't miss out because you read somebody saying bad things about it... if you need converters with mic pres for light-pipe... you should definitely check one out for yourself... you are really missing out if you don't.

Bob L

[weld]

whats INSIDE ? ( ADA8000 )

Internal design ADA8000 by behringer.

Alesis Semiconductor AL1101 A/D converters
Alesis Semiconductor AL1201 D/A converters
Alesis Semiconductor AL1402 ADAT optical decoder
Alesis Semiconductor AL1401A ADAT optical encoder
Toshiba TORX176 Toslink receiver
Toshiba TOTX176 Toslink transmitter
ST Microelectronics TL074C op amp and LM339 "comparator"
other discrete components

[sstillwell]

Unfortunately, that is one of the products that is being pulled because of lack of FCC compliance.

It sucks, because I was just getting ready to buy a couple more of them.

Scott


If the ADA8000 is a ripoff... where is the original and competing product?

For $230 US, there is nothing as useful for what we do... and that represents such a high value in the industry, in my opinion.

Don't miss out because you read somebody saying bad things about it... if you need converters with mic pres for light-pipe... you should definitely check one out for yourself... you are really missing out if you don't.

Bob L

[studio-c]

I've been using the Layla24/CardBus for quite some time. In fact, since the Layla24 sounds so great, I decided to pick up an Indigo dj [4-channel CardBus] for my "live" laptop...for $154.95, this li'l beast is k***237;ck-a$$!! :cool:

Anyway, I wonder if and when I'll ever decide to get a new desktop unit...the Layla24's PCI card (my unit came with both interfaces) is just sitting on a shelf, waiting to be used, its anti-static cover gathering dust. :rolleyes:

Regards,
I've got 2 Laylas, one with the PCMCIA card, and one with the big card (that's a technical term) for the studio. I should probably get another card for the studio unit, then I can have 16 i/o. Although for my type of work, I'm using 2 in / 2 out most of the time, so it's already overkill :) .

The little Indigo i/o seems pretty solid, except for the minijacks. So it's just for emergencies. Cheap insurance- beater laptop with indigo for live stuff.

Regarding someone's comment about the Tascam, I don't know why it didn't work for me. It looks like a great all-in-one compact unit. Maybe it was fighting with the Gateway Kludge programs or something. Also, it was a USB1 port on the laptop. Anyway, I was told that, at that time, the PCMCIA connection was a more direct connection to the data bus on the laptop, so I went in that direction. Maybe, maybe not, but it's solid. So I'm happy.

By the way, I just did format/WinXP installs on three of my computers yesterday. One of the kids installed some cracked audio stuff and it just started gradually eating away at the OS, even after the install. Feels so good to have a fresh start, without the corrupt registry and manufacturer bloatware. Aaaahhh!

Cheers,
Scott

[spiritman]

Scott, I probably shouldn't ask this,,, but what sample rate are you using? I think the Layla24 in the 24b 96k mode sounds very - very good.

I can see the eye's a rolling':rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .....

[TotalSonic]

Scott, I probably shouldn't ask this,,, but what sample rate are you using? I think the Layla24 in the 24b 96k mode sounds very - very good.

I can see the eye's a rolling':rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .....

From my understanding, there is in fact one reason that 2xFs can sound different than 1xFs on a converter - the digital decimation filters on the ADC don't have to be as steep when recording at 2xFs. Usually the more expensive components for these filters will allow 1xFs to sound more like 2xFs - and there is in fact some converters that sound better to my ear at 1xFs than other cheaper converters do at 2xFs.

While I usually just track most projects at 44.1kHz we've been recording for my string quartet's upcoming CD at 88.2

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Shawn]

whats INSIDE ? ( ADA8000 )

Internal design ADA8000 by behringer.

Alesis Semiconductor AL1101 A/D converters
Alesis Semiconductor AL1201 D/A converters
Alesis Semiconductor AL1402 ADAT optical decoder
Alesis Semiconductor AL1401A ADAT optical encoder
Toshiba TORX176 Toslink receiver
Toshiba TOTX176 Toslink transmitter
ST Microelectronics TL074C op amp and LM339 "comparator"
other discrete components

I would guess that the ADA-8000 is pretty much a copy of the Alesis AI-3 with Behringer's mic preamps added.

[Microstudio]

I am building a 24 Track mobile rig and I will be using a ADA8000's. If there good enough for Bob....there good enough for me. But I am going to use a rack mounted PC........Lab Tops are too much money and you can't build them.

[Bill Park]

I recommend that you skip the rack mount and just put the PC in a well padded case for transport. Other than that sexy look, there is no advantage to a rack mounted PC and several disadvantages for travel. Even using a case inside a case design, there is a lot of pressure on the chasis and if the rack flexes, the chasis flexes. Not a good recipe for reliablility.

I work in the theater and I see pro traveling shows all year long, (Wicked is opening tonight. Phantom of the Opera just spent three weeks here) show after show after show. It is very rare to see a rack mounted computer. It is common to find them packed in foam lined crates for travel. It is even common to find them packed in foam padded custom built niches in cases in which they live.

Bill

[Microstudio]

Yes I am with you on that. I too worked in the business at what is now called The Bank Atlantic Center, FL .

I will have the PC in its own case....Monitor, KB & Mouse all in one foam fitted case with wheels.

I also have been looking at the Rugged Labtops......they are very pricey but I hear they are very tough?

[Bob L]

I would disagree that the ADA8000 is a copy of the Alesis... the Alesis What??? There is no product like the ADA8000 I have seen... especially for the same money...

The chipsets used inside mean nothing... most every motherboard uses the same chipsets as every other motherboard... yet they are not copies of each other.

Most every piece of audio gear uses the same opamps or tube components as every other... but they are each independent designs.

Its interesting to me how much of a bum wrap Behringer takes because they tried to put out decent gear for an incredible price... yet... some of this other gear for ridiculous high prices are taken as a new industry standard... and much of it is hype.

Go figure...

I still say... if you want a great and inexpensive way to get 24 channels of i/o for your DAW... the ADA8000 is something to grab onto before they do take it off the market.

I have 48 chans worth and it will probably be a long time before I need anything more. :)

Bob L

[Bill Park]

I also have been looking at the Rugged Labtops......they are very pricey but I hear they are very tough?

I've been using the smallest, lightest one that I could find, which, when I bought it, was the Asus M2400. Now I recently bought an Asus v7000 series machine, but I've not done any complex audio on it so far, all just a couple of track stuff.

If I lived in Europe,I'd have got the Samsung X50. The premium to buy one in the states is just too dear.

Bill

[Microstudio]

I would disagree that the ADA8000 is a copy of the Alesis... the Alesis What??? There is no product like the ADA8000 I have seen... especially for the same money...

The chipsets used inside mean nothing... most every motherboard uses the same chipsets as every other motherboard... yet they are not copies of each other.

Most every piece of audio gear uses the same opamps or tube components as every other... but they are each independent designs.

Its interesting to me how much of a bum wrap Behringer takes because they tried to put out decent gear for an incredible price... yet... some of this other gear for ridiculous high prices are taken as a new industry standard... and much of it is hype.

Go figure...

I still say... if you want a great and inexpensive way to get 24 channels of i/o for your DAW... the ADA8000 is something to grab onto before they do take it off the market.

I have 48 chans worth and it will probably be a long time before I need anything more. :)

Bob L



Ya know.....if this was 1992 and The ADA8000 had just come out it would have gone for 1200.00 or more because it would have been cutting edge technology.......people would have been raving about The ADA8000's awesome sound and people would have been dreaming about get one to have 8 track capability...8 tracks of 24/48....O MY GOD and only 1,200.00 bucks!

[BillyK]

I need some clarification from an RME user. I have been looking at various preamp possibilities for use with the RME Cardbus and Digiface.

The Mackie Onxy800 has a large enough picture on the website to see the silkscreen on the back of the unit. It appears that on a single ADAT lightpipe you can get 8 channels at either 44.1 or 48 kHz. For (8) channels @ 88 or 96 kHz you need to use (2) ADAT lightpipes and for 192kHz you need to use (2) ADAT outputs and only have access to 4 of the 8 channels.

I didn't see those constraints mentioned on the RME site.. though I suppose I might have missed it. I assume that has to do with the parameters of the ADAT format and would be the same no matter what brand pre-amp/converter box you are using? Does the RME Octamic have two ADAT outputs on the backplane like the Mackie Onxy 800 does for the higher sample rates? I know the Behringer unit only does the lower sample rates so there would be no reason to have (2) outputs.

The other item I am a little uncertain about is how to monitor what you are recording on the 8/16/24 channels coming through the Digiface/CardBus.
My goal is to use the same preamp/converters & Digiface in my Studio too, (in addition to the field recording setup with my laptop) so I would also buy the card that plugs into the studio computer that will interface with the Digiface. That rig already has a Lynx II in it (4 channels in & out plus ADAT I/O), and I would imagine that there is no problem using that card for playback or for SRP playback while recording through the 16 channels of preamps coming through the RME Digiface. What I am asking about is when I am using these preamps and RME Digiface/CardBus with the laptop at a live event.. how are the various sources and total mix monitored? I THINK that plugging in a headphone amp to the 1/4" jack on the front of the Digiface is the source for what I am asking, but do I guess correctly that there is some program (other than SawStudio) that is used to set up the monitor mix coming out of that jack? If that is a correct assumption, is it easy to switch around to various inputs and a stereo composite mix?

Thanks for the answers!

BK

[BillyK]

Oooops just a clarification.. when I was talking about the Lynx II card I said:
"That rig already has a Lynx II in it (4 channels in & out plus ADAT I/O)"

I MEANT 4 channels in & out plus AES/EBU I/O

[UpTilDawn]

I can't address the high samplerates issues because I have not found a need yet, but I use a live rig with the digiface and 24 channels of presonus digimax all the time. I'm also configuring my new home setup to handle 24 channels, but using at least 16 channels of the multiface, which has analog ins besides 8 channels of adat.

The headphone preamp on the digiface (the new version of the multiace has a volume control now) is quite enough to drive a couple pairs of phones with a simple Y adapter, so I generally only need that for monitoring live recordings. I used to use a simple mackie mixer to monitor the multiface outputs when i used them live, but since switching the live rig to the digiface, I now have 24 channels in one box so I can simply monitor out the one headphone output.

I usually control the headphone mix using the TotalMix software for the rme pci card since I have yet to need the Saw live mode and the low latency required of it. Totalmix takes some getting used to because everything is controlled in layers as many digital devices are... but once you get used to it, it's very flexible and quite easy to use.

Of course I'm speaking in terms of simple headphone monitoring and not attempting to run complex stage monitors and FOH sound mixes.

DanT

[Dave Labrecque]

BillyK,

I've never done higher than 44.1 or 48 K, but that's the way it works with lightpipe in all the instances I've heard of... you have to spread the bandwidth over more channels. I believe it's a limitation of the lightpipe spec. In fact, I'm not even sure the lightpipe spec goes beyond 48 K/24 bit. These might be proprietary measures that the manufacturers have worked out.

Regarding monitoring. The Digiface (and most RME products, I think) use the TotalMix software mixer applet to do any kind of routing you want. You can route the any combination of inputs to any combination of outputs. Using the Digiface and an ADA8000, you could route all eight inputs to a stereo pair of the Behringer's outputs, or the Digiface stereo headphone/line out. The latter is how I do simple laptop location recording. In my control room, I have the outputs of the Digiface feeding a layer of "tape return" faders on my digital mixing console. Using an analogue console, you could feed the outputs of the Behringer to 8 inputs on the console.

That TotalMix seems pretty flexible. I really need to read up on it's functionality. I'm not too-well versed yet.

[Bob L]

TotalMix is one way to monitor direct signals and route them to any of the multiple outputs.

When I do my live rig recordings, I actually do my monitoring thru SAWStudio... this way, I can mute, solo... eq, compress.. add reverb... etc... all in SAWStucio, as if I am sitting behind a large mixing desk.

In most cases, I am not responsible for feeding signals back to the performers in a live recording sitiuation, so the monitor mix is just for me, sitting somewhere in a dressing room off-stage. I usually use a buffer setting of 3 x 256 in those cases to give a slight bit of headroom while dropping up to 48 tracks live. The slight latency increase is not noticable in these instances while monitoring.

My rig uses 6 ADA8000 units with 2 digifaces for a total of 48 ins and outs... the monitor mix just uses one stereo device for the complete mix... and I route that thru a small multi-headphone amp for multiple headphone and speaker feeds in the room.

With a lower buffer size, like 3 x 64 or less, you can just as easily feedback multiple aux send separate headphone mixes to the performers if needed for stage monitors... the mix I am listening too could just as well feed the main PA stacks also... all from SAWStudio directly with no external mixing hardware.... but your machine has to be tweaked to remain stable at those settings while dropping 48 channels to disk.

This rig, of course, is limited to the 48k rate.

RME makes converters that allow you to get 96k rates from the lightpipe by doubling up lightpipe channels... so you cut your available inputs in half.

The way my rig is setup has been a great way to go and I have caused quite the comotion backstage on many ocassions with this setup. By the time the musicians come off-stage, I have a pretty tweaked mix for them to hear... it is a very exciting experience.... they walk in the room... I hit play... and they can't believe their ears... a complete mix with eq, compression... reverb... etc... and no physical console.... its just as easy to build a quick mix and send them home with a rough CD of the entire performance for analysis.

Afterwards... I usually extract each song they want to use in the final project to its own folder with the Extract Session command... then we spend whatever time they want editing and cleaning... overdubbing if needed... and creating the final CD mixes and mastering... all from separate sessions extracted from the live performance giant wav source files... Its such a great way to work, I can't believe the way we used to have to do this and certainly can't imagine ever doing it that way again. :)

Bob L

[sstillwell]

With two digifaces, are you using a desktop or laptop PC? Most of the laptops I'm seeing anymore only have a single cardbus slot.

I read some of your earlier recommendations about ProStar laptops...what's the current model you're recommending? The others seem to have fallen off their website.

I'm taking my current laptop and ProjectMix I/O to rehearsal tomorrow to start tinkering with Live mode. Very minimal track requirements ( less than 16 live, 4 or 5 in rehearsal )...it should be a blast!

I can already see that it's not going to be long before I upgrade to the full Studio product. I WANT those extra mixer views!

Scott Stillwell

[Bill Park]

With two digifaces, are you using a desktop or laptop PC? Most of the laptops I'm seeing anymore only have a single cardbus slot.

Scott Stillwell

Scott,

there are some that have 2. I bought my new laptop at the end of last year and that was one of the options that I saw available on a few models.

Bill

[Bob L]

I used to use two laptops hooked with my TCP/IP host remote mode, because it has been increasingly hard to find a laptop with 2 cardbus slots.

The rig I just described is a small Micro ATX case with 2 PCI RME cards in it... I also used dual monitors to allow me to spread things out a bit while doing the recordings and monitoring at the same time.

I use the feature of programming specific size Record Panel window views into my F-Keys so I can press an F-Key to see as many record meters stretched out at once... which pretty much cover both screens... but then another press of other F-Keys, size the Record Meter panels down to 2 or 4 channels, leaving plenty of screen real-estate for the mixer and multitrack views.... a great way to work.... easy to jump around and adjust mix settings... and then instantly jump back to see my record meters all spread out.

Bob L

[Bill Park]

I just wan tto point out that I have recorded at both 48 and 96, and that I have standardised on 96, but in the world of pop music anyone would be perfectly safe to record live work at 48. So if you are dragging a laptop around and are worried about track numbers and available mic pres, etc, just do the work at 48 and be happy.

If you dissagree, please tell me what 96k brings to the table in the live rock situation that is an improvement over 48k, and I'll experiment.

Bill

[Microstudio]

I used to use two laptops hooked with my TCP/IP host remote mode, because it has been increasingly hard to find a laptop with 2 cardbus slots.

The rig I just described is a small Micro ATX case with 2 PCI RME cards in it... I also used dual monitors to allow me to spread things out a bit while doing the recordings and monitoring at the same time.

I use the feature of programming specific size Record Panel window views into my F-Keys so I can press an F-Key to see as many record meters stretched out at once... which pretty much cover both screens... but then another press of other F-Keys, size the Record Meter panels down to 2 or 4 channels, leaving plenty of screen real-estate for the mixer and multitrack views.... a great way to work.... easy to jump around and adjust mix settings... and then instantly jump back to see my record meters all spread out.

Bob L


Bob give us the Specs on the mobo you are using in your 48 track mobile rig...

MB,CPU,VC & RAM I am all ears.....

How do you tap into the live mixer, did you make a snake, how to you label everything?..........48-36-24 tracks is a lot at one time.......this is just too cool!

[Bob L]

I come direct from a stage snake split, so I never interfere at all with the house console and don't need to be involved with the normal showroom operation.

Labeling is simple... its all in SAWStudio... up to 48 splits off the stage directly into 48 tracks in SAWStudio... labeled... assigned... routed with the pre patch at the top of the channels so the recored signal is flat and dry... the rest of the virtual console is then mine to do with what I want.

I use the mic pres of the Behringers for mic level signals and patch into the line ins for keyboard mixers and guitar effects gear signals.

The motherboard is an Asus P4P800 Micro ATX... it has 4 PCI slots... 2 for the RME cards... 1 for firewire... and one for a dual monitor video card... it uses a nice little Antec Micro ATX case and packs easily in a small carry-on luggage bag.

I used two Sony 1280 flat panels that have a unique foldable curved stand design that fold flat to be easily packed in two flat anvil type drum cases... it has an Intel Pentium 3.2 ghz cpu... it all has been working very nicely. :)

Bob L

[Microstudio]

I come direct from a stage snake split, so I never interfere at all with the house console and don't need to be involved with the normal showroom operation.

Labeling is simple... its all in SAWStudio... up to 48 splits off the stage directly into 48 tracks in SAWStudio... labeled... assigned... routed with the pre patch at the top of the channels so the recored signal is flat and dry... the rest of the virtual console is then mine to do with what I want.

I use the mic pres of the Behringers for mic level signals and patch into the line ins for keyboard mixers and guitar effects gear signals.

The motherboard is an Asus P4P800 Micro ATX... it has 4 PCI slots... 2 for the RME cards... 1 for firewire... and one for a dual monitor video card... it uses a nice little Antec Micro ATX case and packs easily in a small carry-on luggage bag.

I used two Sony 1280 flat panels that have a unique foldable curved stand design that fold flat to be easily packed in two flat anvil type drum cases... it has an Intel Pentium 3.2 ghz cpu... it all has been working very nicely. :)

Bob L


Good stuff Bob.....;) I did not no that Asus made a Micro P4800 MB......I do now....thanks!