GROUP LOCK REGIONS

[Carl G.]

Bob,
A Fantastic addition to 4.0 (IF possible) would be the equivalent of CorelDraw's "Lock All Selected Objects" which allows us to LOCK objects to they can be moved in unison at any time in the production process as though it were ONE object!!!!!!!! (without having to re-select/highlight them each single time we want to move them in unsion).

It SAVE BUNDLES - I mean B U N D L E S of time in production - not having to rehighlight a group of perfectly synced elements every (many everys) time I need to move them in the creative process.

It would be a simple logical progression to what is already implimented in SawStudio (highlight regions/group move) and yield enormous gains in speed and productivity... because we would not need to rehighlight that group and/or zoom out PLUS switch to new Fkey back and forth to catch all the verticle tracks in highlighting...each time we want to move that group of regions during creative production.

I'd call it "GROUP LOCK REGIONS" (available from the Alt Right Click drop down menu):
1. Select the regions you want for "GROUP LOCK REGIONS"
2. Alt Right Click (drop down menu item) "GROUP LOCK selected REGIONS".
(an item next to it would be for 'unlock selected group'

If desired, There could be several different ways to show that those regions are locked
(via MT regions displaying diff. shading, hash, whatever).

A Multitude of THANKS if you can impliment this 'little ol' BIG suggestion in 4.0!!!
Carl

[UpTilDawn]

I guess it's too early in the morning for me to understand how what you want is different than what is already part of grouping features, Carl.

Grouping is already saveable and recallable in both highlighted and selected groups.

Once groups are created and saved in the various lists (group list and select list alike), recall is a simple matter of right-clicking the appropriate MT or mixer window edge, or the SEL button to gain access to the entire groups lists. Right-clicking a highlighted group of channels in mixer and edit modes, or regions (in select mode) causes the already-selected group to cancel and selecting a new one is as simple as choosing from the righht-click menu again.

Besides that, the choice is additive, in that if a group is not cancelled and another one chosen, it is added to the existing group. This can then be saved as a new, larger group if needed.

In fact, one addition to this additive feature that I would find useful would be to have the option of additive grouping or "cancel previously selected group", which is more beneficial to my own workflow because I tend to need a different group more often than I need to add another group. In fact, a modifier key operation would be more useful than a menu only option in this regard since there are times within the stages of a given project that one function is needed more often than the other, but both are useful on the whole.

DanT

[Arno Jordan]

I think he is talking about the ability to form a group out of some selected regions and save the selection for as long as this group exists so that selecting one region which is part of the group would select all the other members of this group too until it is "ungrouped" again. This would save a lot of time for me too.

Great idea !

Arno Jordan
www.sacredsounds.de

[MMP]

This is in there. Right click the SEL button. I use this a lot for multitrack sound effects. Recall the previously saved selected regions group and insert...very handy.

Regards,

MM

[Mogers]

I'm with Carl on this, and would put better MT entry grouping as one of my absolute top 3 feature requests (actually I only have 2 ;) )

As Dan points out, there already is grouping functionality in SS, but I think that there are key differences between what we already have and what Carl and I (and maybe others) would ideally like.

What are those differences?

(1) if multiple MT entries were locked together, then it would not be possible to move one of the component entries without moving all the others as well. If you want to move just one of the components, then you have to make a conscious effort to ungroup/unlock the collection.

I think this is highly desirable. When the client says "move that speech after the music, instead of before", and when "that speech" consists of 50 separate MT entries with softedges, gaps, automation etc, then it would make work so much easier and quicker if you could just move the cursor anywhere over the group and SHIFT+LeftClick slide it around. No need to use select mode at all - i.e. it works just as if it were one single MT entry.

(2) the visual representation of a locked group. If there was some way of showing that a bunch of MT entries were grouped/locked, then that would make "macro" level editing much clearer. SADiE handles this really well, and my work with colleagues at BBC Radio has taught me that this is one of the key reasons why there are literally thousands of SADiE systems at the BBC - they are working towards getting one for every desktop.

Say you wanted to move part of a speech around - an extremely typical situation in speech radio - or verses of a song. You might have an SS track looking like this:

163

Whoa! A visual mess, if perhaps an aural delight :)

But if I could group the entries, and maybe name the groups, then it might look like this:

165

In this example, I've just thickened the borders to show that these are groups of MT entries - I'm sure there will be other ways to show it.

Also note that a group could include non-contiguous entries (e.g. region followed by silence followed by entry). This could be shown by having no audio waveform line in the group display, as demonstrated in the middle and end groups above.

Now I could easily and visually move the middle group to the end, or whatever. No need for select, and very easy to know exactly what you are doing on a zoomed out display.

Even better would be the ability to have nested groups - i.e. groups of groups. So the above example 3 groups could be grouped to become 1 "total speech" group. Ungrouping the "total speech" group would change the display to the 3 groups shown above. Ungrouping any one of those 3 groups would display the individual MT entries.

Hope some of this makes sense!

cheers
Mark

[Bob L]

I think the use of the 30 preset groups that save with the session already handles this situation.

Click the Select Mode button... select the region entries on the multitrack... right-click the Select Mode button to save this selection as a preset group... that's all there is to it... next time you want to move the group, simply right-click the Select Button and select the group... select mode is activated at the same time... then move away.

This also makes more sense in that many times slections span across multiple tracks, especially in sound design for film or video projects... trying to get all complex and display grouped regions as one common element will never work for multiple track selections...

All in all... what you are looking for is already in the program.... and has been since the very beginning. :)

Bob L

[UpTilDawn]

But if I could group the entries, and maybe name the groups, then it might look like this:

165

In this example, I've just thickened the borders to show that these are groups of MT entries - I'm sure there will be other ways to show it.

Also note that a group could include non-contiguous entries (e.g. region followed by silence followed by entry). This could be shown by having no audio waveform line in the group display, as demonstrated in the middle and end groups above.

Now I could easily and visually move the middle group to the end, or whatever. No need for select, and very easy to know exactly what you are doing on a zoomed out display.



Well, a very simple solution to this scenario and that already exists in Saw would be that once you know which regions you want to group select them, ctrl/drag them to an unused track, leave everything in the channel strip set to default settings, darken the track number to select only it and build mix to hot track, using your original channel as the hot track destination.

If your output track already has FX/processing engaged, you could probably assign this "buildmix/unused" track's output to an unused one, I think.... never had to before.

DanT

[Carl G.]

I think the use of the 30 preset groups that save with the session already handles this situation.

Click the Select Mode button... select the region entries on the multitrack... right-click the Select Mode button to save this selection as a preset group... that's all there is to it... next time you want to move the group, simply right-click the Select Button and select the group... select mode is activated at the same time... then move away.
Bob L
(Edit) Precisely what I was asking for!
What service! What Support! What genious code implimentation!
ALL Before I could even make my next Post on the matter!

(That sounds a whole lot better than me admitting .... "I missed that while reading the manual"! 0:
So to paraphrase my original post:
A B I G T H A N K Y O U in advance for creating that feature in advance of me asking for it!!!

[AudioAstronomer]

The region grouping would be fantastic, but for the most part, simply mixing down to a seperate layer works great.


I think at that point you get into some very heavy computation just to move a single "region" around and some weirdness with crossing boundaries and whatnot. Sadie doesnt do it exactly very well imo, but they do a good job of making the limitations very obvious so you dont goof too much.

[Bob L]

Carl,

I'm glad you approve... lots more where that came from in the helpfile. :D

Actually 4.0 has been delayed because I am having trouble with the new "self-aware" feature I have been working on... SS is almost there, but now that it can write its own code when someone desires a new feature, I am having trouble with it's God Complex atitude problem. :)

Bob L

[olzzon]

Carl,
Actually 4.0 has been delayed because I am having trouble with the new "self-aware" feature I have been working on... SS is almost there, but now that it can write its own code when someone desires a new feature, I am having trouble with it's God Complex atitude problem. :)

Bob L

Oh, so you programed a singers syndrome into your code.:D

[Naturally Digital]

LOL! :D

[Arno Jordan]

Bob: if Saw may start to ask you for burnt offerings, please remove that feature again. Who knows where that may end up with.

[Mogers]

Click the Select Mode button... select the region entries on the multitrack... right-click the Select Mode button to save this selection as a preset group... that's all there is to it... next time you want to move the group, simply right-click the Select Button and select the group... select mode is activated at the same time... then move away.

All in all... what you are looking for is already in the program.... and has been since the very beginning. :)

Bob L

I think we'll have to agree to differ on this one, Bob ;)

The method described above is very useful - I use it all the time - but it still doesn't provide a solution to the 2 key points I raised in my original long-winded post:

(1) entries are not locked together other than for the short period when they are group selected.
(2) there is no visual representation of the group that can be used at the "macro" or "structural" editing level (e.g. whole verses, choruses, speeches, or other logical units of edited stuff.)

DanT helpfully pointed out the ability to build the group to a new file (build to hot track etc), but the key phrase he used was "once you know which regions you want to group". I wish it were so... or maybe it's just the producers I work with!

It seems to me that an enormous amount of development in audio technology and working practice is geared towards what I call "decision avoidance" - building systems that always leave the option of changing your mind later. When I started in classical recording 20 years ago virtually every recording was mixed straight to stereo on the session. These days it's rare to find a job that isn't multitracked. DAWs such as SAW have taken off so spectacularly partly because of their non-destructive capability - i.e. whatever you do, you can always change it later.

I think there is a very interesting debate to be had on the benefits and detriments this has brought to the quality of the final result, but my point here is that most of the clients with whom I work now expect this functionality (what could uncharitably be called a "please don't force me to make my final decision yet" ability) to be the norm.

So this makes techniques such as building sections to new files somewhat less than ideal. You edit/mix/process a section to the client's satisfaction, then you build it to a new file, then you shuffle the order of sections, then the client wants to change the mix on a section that he had previously decided was finished. It's all fixable, of course, but maybe not as efficiently and elegantly as it could be.

But perhaps I've just become somewhat blasé about the embarrassment of technological riches we have these days :)

cheers
Mark

[MMP]

Well, within this thread there are users that didn't know about Saw's ability to save selected groups at all, and others that have asked for refinements of the existing capabilities.

As to the macro viewing and locking, I think that's a boatload of code to add modes that don't really add that much functionality. Turning on select mode locks regions together, turning it off allows individual manipulation...how would any other mode change this basic functionality?

You can name and recall these selected groups already and there is a visual indication that the regions are selected.

The selected group recall works great with Saw's various paste to cursor modes for sectional copying & pasting as it exists now.

Where is the real additional functionality of this macro mode and what would it cost in development time?

Regards,

MM

[Bob L]

(1) entries are not locked together other than for the short period when they are group selected.
(2) there is no visual representation of the group that can be used at the "macro" or "structural" editing level (e.g. whole verses, choruses, speeches, or other logical units of edited stuff.)


Locked together when the group is selected with one click and unlocked for individual editing already.

Visual representation is the fact that when you select the group in Group mode, the group is hi-lited and very visible... you can now move, copy, delete and other things with those selected entries... and yes you can easily create very visible groups of multiple tracks of entries that go together such as vocal choruses or speeches or whole verses.

Having many of these things visible onscreen at once would get confusing, in my opinion, especially with some of the proposed waveform concepts... I see no easy method to visually group multiple items at the same time and still represent them as connected, especially across multiple tracks down the length of the timeline...so I feel that the current method is a better alternative indeed.

And, its extremely easy to create stem builds of multiple segments of any session if that's the way you like to work... without ever loosing the ability to go back and make changes... simply save the edl as a spinoff version along the way and all individual components that you build together can always be rebuilt and imported back in... or use the layer functions... keeping individual components on other layers while you build the final component groups onto a common layer... or simply copy the whole session further down the timeline as you start building mix components, leaving the original pieces intact in the earlier versions... that also provides an incredible visual of the growth of the session as you look at each section along the timeline in progressive order.

In general, even my most complex sessions have played all the way to the final mix without needing to break it down into stem sections, although I know many seem to like to work this way.

I have had many clients come back months later to change one small thing in a complex session, and all it takes is to bring up the session, change the element, and re-build the mix in a few minutes... since the whole project is kept virtual.

In reality you have to create the group the first time no matter what... so once done, if you feel you will need this group again, right-click the Select button and save and name the group.... the next time you need to copy or move that complex group of elements, simply right-click the Select button and click on the group name... now all the grouped regions will hi-lite, copy them or move them or whatever you needed to do with them as a group... come out of Select Mode to work on the pieces individually... there is no reason to litter the screen with hi-lited or color modified or outlined or any other type of method to see every group in the session all the time... you only need to see the group when you need to work on the group at the moment you are working on it... at least in my opinion. :)

Bob L

[Mogers]

Where is the real additional functionality of this macro mode and what would it cost in development time?


I'm not qualified to know what the development time would be, but I hope I can make a simple analogy to help explain what I perceive would be the benefits of a visual macro grouping.

On my first computer (Acorn BBC computer Model B - ah, those were the days!) the disk drives could hold no more than 32 files. So when you listed the contents of the drive, it was no problem to see them all in one list.

But my PC now has 65,000-ish files on it, and so it is most useful to have some sort of hierarchical structure, where related files can be put in named folders, and folders in folders, and so on. This makes the visualisation and management of what you've got much easier - I can use Windows explorer to see multiple folder names simultaneously, rather than every individual filename.

Back in SAW, I often have EDLs (especially with classical music) with literally thousands of edits. So when I wish to view at a macro level (e.g. a whole CD), maybe to do some creative structural work (e.g. shuffling pieces around, visually comparing lengths etc), then all I see is a forest of thousands of vertical lines, which doesn't really tell me anything (aside from something about the performer's ability to play their instrument... ;) ). There are often so many vertical lines that you can't see the waveforms or region names at all, or sometimes even if they are highlighted when selected. The analog would be to open Windows explorer and just see one list box with 65,000 entries.

This analogy may seem rather laboured and obvious, for which I wholeheartedly apologise, but I know that I would find having a "hierarchical filing system" for MT entries a major help with my work. I think it would be one of those "one you've got it you'll wonder how you managed without it" things.

YMMV, of course.




Bob said... lots of excellent stuff... and finished with:

you only need to see the group when you need to work on the group at the moment you are working on it... at least in my opinion. :)


that's maybe one of the key areas where we differ - I want to be able to see, simultaneously, Song A (a group of entries), Song B (a group of entries), Song C (etc...)

Bob talked about using layers for builds - a very good idea - and it got me thinking. I know Bob that you've talked previously about upcoming changes in build-mix functionality in 4.0. Have you thought about having the ability to "Build Mix of just this track's stuff to another layer on the same track"? Or maybe "Build Mix to the current layer on the current track, but then move all the selected stuff that was on the current layer to another layer as a backup for future changes"?

Anyway, I don't seem to be persuading many people about my ideas for grouping, so rather than going round in ever-decreasing circles, I shall admit defeat gracefully :D. Thanks to all for your feedback and ideas.

cheers
Mark

[MMP]

Mark,

I certainly understand what you are proposing...it's not a lot different from what I think is coming to MIDI Workshop where, I believe, multichannel sequences will be boundable into higher level regions for easier editing.

I tend to use multiple EDLs to accomplish the type of overview you are talking about. I will have one EDL with all the tracks/regions and another with the submixed versions. If I need to change an element, I go into the lower level EDL, make the changes and mix to the same filename as before, which automatically replaces the audio in the "macro" EDL. If you try this, it is important that the replaced files are always identical in length to the originals, or changes will also need to be made in the macro EDL.

I have a hard time imagining any macro system that could save specific groupings and display them in a more meaningful way than what we have presently...though it could just be a failure of imagination on my part.

I do tend to dislike the abstract layers of heirachy that you are proposing, though I do understand the potential benefits, it just makes me feel disconnected from the process as the details get obscured by the higher level objects. Part of the YMMV equation, I guess

But it is always fun to discuss new ways to use SS, and propose new additions to the software.

Regards,

MM

[Bob L]

Personally, if I have a vocal track with hundreds of edits, I like seeing where those edits are... and if for some reason I decided that I would rather see one long region, then I would simply select that track and build a mix to an empty hottrack... and slide that over the original vocal track on another layer... this sounds like what you would like to see.... well you can do it easily now.

You will be able to do it easier in 4.0 with all kinds of new stem building capabilities... including ones like you mention of building onto a new layer on the same track... with and without effects and processing... etc.

I think I see what you are asking... to display the track of hindreds of edits as if it were already stemmed down... well... I feel that opens up a pandoras box of complexity in trying to display that option... as well as making a mess out of non-contiguous elements grouped in that fashion... so I believe the idea of the many optioned stem mix feature is going to be the direction I go.

I will make a note in the todo list to consider a way to display blocked sections of regions without actually creating a stem... but that one will require some thought before implementing.

Bob L

[UpTilDawn]

I really like and appreciate the flexibility that you write into this program, Bob... leaving us with the decision-making power in the end.:)



I just want to add that I also work with sessions (2 hr concerts of many songs and dialog), which end up with hundreds of edits per track and across track groups. On top of that, add region names and numbers, all the countless automation hash marks and the vertical position markers that CSG (Jon Marshall Smith's great plug-in) adds.... Well, the visual display gets REALLY difficult to decipher.:eek:

A giant help in respect to the desire to "see" things on the large scale is the use of the locators and the locator naming list.:) I only wish there were many more locators because I tend to run out (maybe even locators that are specific to a given layer in Lite and Full).

I know it's been suggested that the control track is immensely helpful in this respect as well, although I don't find it convenient to drag the control track up where I can see it, taking away valuable vertical track real estate, but I'll add it to the possibilities that exist for viewing "macro" sized positions... in conjunction with using the above-mentioned group select methods.

All in all, in the end, two of the best things about Saw and Bob is: "Simple is better" when it comes to the layout, and Flexibility RULES.:D

The discusion is great and your suggestions bring a fresh perspective, Mark, to this important area of the work process... evidenced by Bob's willingness to look into possible changes to the system.

Don't give up just because some of us don't see the need to change... we become protective of what works for us already in the fear that changes could bring down the fort:eek: ...... but Bob wouldn't let that happen anyway, would he?;)

I've seen some discussions drag on for months before Bob has seen a valid reason to impliment a given change that I thought was a no brainer.;)

It's all cool.:cool:

DanT

[Bob L]

This happens a lot I have noticed... people complain about things without first exploring the way they are implemented... then later come back and say... oh... I see... that's great....

The Control Track Cue Locations do not require you to see the Control Track at all... leave it at the bottome of the MT... simply add the Control Track View into one or more of your F-Keys...

You want to talk how cluttered your screen can become... imagine adding group displays and marker lines all the way down the MT...

You can position your cursor and press the Q key to drop a marker... simple... you don't even need to see the Control Track or Control Track View when doing so... you can also drop these live during playback... simple and clean.

These are unlimited... ram being the determining factor.

Now press your F-Key with the Control Track View expanded out nice and large and simply pick any marker and click with the mouse... bam... you are there... without the Control Track involved in the display... then click back to your favorite F-Key working view and you are off and running at the chorus or the verse or the sax solo... or whatever.

You can also add multiple markers at the same cursor position and these will all hi-lite together allowing you to easily keep notes about specific locations that are easily visible and accessable...

Try it... you'll like it. :)

Be careful of falling into the trap of waiting for me to implement something you have seen in other systems only to find out that the feature is already implemented... and in most cases... in a manner much enhanced over what you have been waiting for.

I have thought about this stuff just a little... in case that wasn't obvious. :D

Bob L

[Bob L]

Here's another tip for creating visible marker sections of a song.

Create a blank silent wav file of the longest length you may want a section to be.

Now, on Track 1... place a region stretched the length of the intro... then one following for the verse... then the chorus... etc...

Now you will have nice fat region section displays at the top of the MT... clearly labeled for each section... click track 1 or the I zone in the bottom left of the MT, if track 1 is not displayed... then use the Tab key to jump sections, or simply visibly jump right to the chorus or the vamp... or whatever.

If you don't want to take up extra space for the blank wav file... simply use any full length wav file that is part of the song, and make sure to mute the track so you don't hear the audio.

Bob L

[UpTilDawn]

Very good points Bob... and I still need to start exploring the control track:D


DanT

[Carl G.]

Carl,
.... now that it can write its own code when someone desires a new feature, I am having trouble with it's God Complex atitude problem. :)

Bob L
Just tell it "Thou Shalt Have No Other Programmers Before Me" :)

[Mogers]

You will be able to do it easier in 4.0 with all kinds of new stem building capabilities... including ones like you mention of building onto a new layer on the same track... with and without effects and processing... etc.

I think I see what you are asking... to display the track of hindreds of edits as if it were already stemmed down... well... I feel that opens up a pandoras box of complexity in trying to display that option... as well as making a mess out of non-contiguous elements grouped in that fashion... so I believe the idea of the many optioned stem mix feature is going to be the direction I go.

I will make a note in the todo list to consider a way to display blocked sections of regions without actually creating a stem... but that one will require some thought before implementing.
Bob L

That's great Bob. Thank you! :)

Mark