Annoying crash

[demodoc]

I've been getting a strange sudden crash sometimes. I've been trying to isolate what I might be doing wrong to make it happen but just can't figure it out. As far as I can tell, this is what's happening. I record a soundfile into the soundfile view,via the SP/DIF input on my Gina 3G, directly from my CD player. I stop recording and get out of the record window completely. When I go to play the file by right clicking the mouse, I will sometimes get a serious crash...total freeze. Sometimes playback will start but it will stutter like crazy and then the crash. I have to close SS using the task manager and restart. Then, everything is fine till the next time this happens. I don't know if it has to do with having just recorded a file or not but it seems to happen then. Otherwise everything is very stable.

I am running Win 2k...2.8Ghz dual core, 2 meg ram. I do have a few things running in the background....Symantec anti virus corporate, McAfee firewall. I often also have another audio app open and sitting on the taskbar...Soundforge 8.0 and/or Wavelab 5.0.

As I say, it's hard to isolate what this is. I thought I was causing it by maybe accidentally hitting the spacebar while simultaneously right clicking or some such thing but that's not it. I will also sometimes get the "forcing engine shutdown" warning and sometimes I then have to restart, othe times I am OK. I must be doing something SS doesn't like...but what?

Any ideas, Bob? :confused:

[Veit Kenner]

I've been getting a strange sudden crash sometimes. I've been trying to isolate what I might be doing wrong to make it happen but just can't figure it out. As far as I can tell, this is what's happening. I record a soundfile into the soundfile view,via the SP/DIF input on my Gina 3G, directly from my CD player. I stop recording and get out of the record window completely. When I go to play the file by right clicking the mouse, I will sometimes get a serious crash...total freeze. Sometimes playback will start but it will stutter like crazy and then the crash. I have to close SS using the task manager and restart. Then, everything is fine till the next time this happens. I don't know if it has to do with having just recorded a file or not but it seems to happen then. Otherwise everything is very stable.

I am running Win 2k...2.8Ghz dual core, 2 meg ram. I do have a few things running in the background....Symantec anti virus corporate, McAfee firewall. I often also have another audio app open and sitting on the taskbar...Soundforge 8.0 and/or Wavelab 5.0.

As I say, it's hard to isolate what this is. I thought I was causing it by maybe accidentally hitting the spacebar while simultaneously right clicking or some such thing but that's not it. I will also sometimes get the "forcing engine shutdown" warning and sometimes I then have to restart, othe times I am OK. I must be doing something SS doesn't like...but what?

Any ideas, Bob? :confused:
I'd definitely shut down any Symantec software first. Then I'd try to record into the MT and see if this changes anything.

Also closing other audio apps could help. Usually (or sometimes?) there is a mechanism that makes audio apps release the audio driver when they are in the background. But by using the SF window maybe something is happening and the other apps try to get focus back. Just guessing but easy to try.

Veit

[Bob L]

I am wondering if the clocking is in some strange mode... perhaps when recording from the spdif, the card switches to an external clock mode and then when you stop the CD, that clock goes away... something like that.

Does this happen if you do not use the spdif... try recording just analog with an internal clock set... see if the problem goes away.

Bob L

[demodoc]

Will do. It's not a consistent problem, though it happened a few time today. I will experiment.

I have been manually switching the Gina driver to external when I record from the CD and then back to internal when I'm done.

[sebastiandybing]

The Gina card don´t have multiclient audio driver, unless you specified
a unik output from each audio app. so Saw use 1-2, SF 3-4 and WL 5-6.

Sebastian

[demodoc]

Actually it works just fine sharing outputs on all apps, if you use WDM driver and not ASIO.

[bit]

How many of you are recording directly into the soundfile view anyway. I vagely remember running into some issues when I tried a long time ago. I aways use the multitrack.

BIT

[AlanH]

Odd coincidence. I happened to record into the soundfile view for possibly the first time ever with SS yesterday (used to do it a lot in SAWPro). Was recording a streaming radio feed via the internal soundcard - going to 22k mono.

SS did a complete crash - straight to desktop - on one occasion. Fortunately, however, the sound file was preserved.

Too many other things going on at the time to give a proper status report, but will keep my eyes open for this in the future.

[sebastiandybing]

Hi Demodoc

Ok, I use asio,so that is why.
Do you then run SF and WL with wdm or mme drivers ?

Sebastian

[demodoc]

Wavelab runs under what they call "MME-WDM"...Soundforge under "Windows Classic"...I guess that's MME. All works well in my work.

[demodoc]

Bit,

I record in the SF view because I am doing audio production work, not music recording and I often need to load music beds and sound effects in to be regioned out later as I need them. never had any trouble in the SAWpro days with this.

I am experimenting with some things to try and pinpoint what makes this happen and what doesn't.

[demodoc]

Bob,

I just did a test where I recorded into the SF view using the SP\DIF input with the Gina set to external so it would clock to the source. When I was finished recording, I set it back to internal. Then played back. At first, it played fine but then I tried jumping around in the file while playing as I often do. Almost immediately, I got the crash. After restarting, I then recorded using the analog input and set to the internal clock, of course. No crashes at all this time. H'mmmmmmm:confused:

I am beginning to supect this new CD player...a Stanton C-500 dual drawer. I have noticed that it spits out some rather nasty digital static sometimes when the drawer opens and closes which the old one never did...a Stanton S-550. I even will occasionally get a little digital "snap" while just working in SS, not recording and the Gina is set to internal. Maybe the internal clock of the CD player is kinda funky??

Next step is to try the same experiment but recording straight into the multitrack view.

Standby for results....

[demodoc]

Ok....here's the result.

No crash at all when recording in the multitrack view, either SP\DIF or analog...totally stable.

So, given Alan's experience, maybe there is some issue involving recording into the SF view, at least on our systems.

While I was performing these tests, it occured to me...how come it is possible to jump around within a soundfile while playback is active in the SF view but not the multitrack view?

Thanks!

[UpTilDawn]

To jump around in the MT, simply left-click anywhere on the time ruler at the bottom of the MT display.

DanT

[demodoc]

Cooool!!! I didn't know that.

Thanks:D

[Ian Alexander]

Bit,

I record in the SF view because I am doing audio production work, not music recording and I often need to load music beds and sound effects in to be regioned out later as I need them. never had any trouble in the SAWpro days with this.

I am experimenting with some things to try and pinpoint what makes this happen and what doesn't.
I do production work, too, but always record in the MT. That approach gives the track name to the file and all of the regions, even after editing, which is also helpful in archiving, etc. For music and sfx on cd, I rip them and then Add SF to MT. My CD drive rips much faster than real time recording through analog or digital inputs. I also find that using the K and D keys, among others in the MT, is much faster than creating regions in the SF. YMMV.

[demodoc]

Somtimes I rip tracks too, though I do it in Wavelab since SS won't do it. I often play music in to SS in realtime because I am auditioning it in the CD player anyway, first of all and second it allows me to hear it one more time while I am thinking about how I'm going to edit it etc. I use the K, D, Insert, delete and many other keys too. I just would like to be able to record into the SF if I want to and not have a crash....I'm funny that way.:D

[UpTilDawn]

... I just would like to be able to record into the SF if I want to and not have a crash....I'm funny that way.:D

I just had a $500 range spit up $180 worth of parts to repair and the range is only a year and a half old.
You would think you expect some kind of perfection........ :D

[Tree Leopard]

I just remembered quite a while a go I tried recording an interview in SF - thinking I could quickly rough edit the whole deal by marking & dragging segments into the MT - but the same thing happened. After about 30 mins SAW froze. I tried on another occaision and the same result. Never had a problem in MT, even with very long takes and with AV accidently left on.

Perhaps there is some difference in the way recording process is handled in SF ... ?

Andre

[Bob L]

Never noticed any difference in SF view recording... the code is actually much less complex so it should actually be more stable... not sure what you may be running into.

Bob L

[demodoc]

Don't know but with 3 of us reporting similar results, I'd say it might be worth looking into....

[bcorkery]

I just remembered quite a while a go I tried recording an interview in SF - thinking I could quickly rough edit the whole deal by marking & dragging segments into the MT - but the same thing happened. After about 30 mins SAW froze. I tried on another occaision and the same result. Never had a problem in MT, even with very long takes and with AV accidently left on.

Perhaps there is some difference in the way recording process is handled in SF ... ?

AndreI don't think I've recorded to SF since Saw+32. In the multitrack you can drop q's on the fly. Later you can revisit those q's and find the segments you liked then mark/alt/LClick and drop a new region onto the track below. Sorry I can't comment on the SF thingy.

[demodoc]

I completely understand the advantages of recording in the multitrack view and would not debate the issue. But it isn't the point. The point is a possible problem with a function that is supposed to work properly and sometimes doesn't. You could compare it to the horn not working on your car and your mechanic telling you you don't really need the horn anyway since you can just yell out the window everytime you want to get another driver's attention. It's some kind of a solution but shouldn't the horn just work?:D

[Ian Alexander]

I completely understand the advantages of recording in the multitrack view and would not debate the issue. But it isn't the point. The point is a possible problem with a function that is supposed to work properly and sometimes doesn't. You could compare it to the horn not working on your car and your mechanic telling you you don't really need the horn anyway since you can just yell out the window everytime you want to get another driver's attention. It's some kind of a solution but shouldn't the horn just work?:D
I see what you mean. I think the problem with your analogy is that it also involves Windows. :D
I hope you find a solution.

[bcorkery]

I'll be doing some SFX for my son's "Wizard of Oz" performance. I'll play with thie and see if anything fouls.

[bcorkery]

Sorry for taking so long to get back. The Ozians have been keeping me busy with the sound design for the upcoming show.

I tried to make it fail but had no trouble recording into the SF view. Shift back space, control backspace & back space didn't even phaze it. I was adjusting the scrolling back and forth while recording. Nothing went wrong. 'Course that's what we've come to expect with Bob's stuff.

Did you get to the bottom of this?

[Bob L]

I'm still not sure there's anything to get to the bottom of yet... I have not seen SF view crashes and cn't seem to duplicate one yet... something else is possibly going on here.

Bob L

[bcorkery]

I'm guessing it's a machine issue. I tried but can't duplicate it either.

[demodoc]

It has only happned when recording using the SP/DIF input, not the analog and nor every time either. A hard one to pin down...probably some goofy driver-based thing!

[demodoc]

OK, I think it is a driver issue. Itried recording through the SP/DIF input of the Gina 3G (latest driver) into the SF view. Upon playback, it was Ok for about 2 seconds, then i tried jumping around within the file and SAW crashed completely. After restarting the file plays fine no matter what I do. Then I recorded the eaxct same thing through the SP/DIF input of my second audio interface, and M-Audio Firewire Audiophile. Guess what? No crash upon playback through the Gina or the M Audio's analaog outs. Both cards were set to external clock on recording and internal for playback.I'm certainly no expert here but this result says something is going on with the Gina 3G driver that is NO going on with the M-Audio?? Am I getting warm, Bob?:D

[Bob L]

The SF view does live instant playback jumps... it actually stops and instantly restarts the driver at a new location as you jump around... my guess is that the one driver does not like that fast of a sequence of commands.

Perhaps if you stop playback then move the cursor then restart... the driver will be fine... you may also just need to increase the buffer settings... the driver may not be able to keep up with low buffer settings.

Bob L

[demodoc]

I increased the buffer size within the Gina driver from 128 to 256 but no difference. I noticed the M-Audio defaults to 256 and it works fine. I solved the problem last night by simply making the M-Audio my default digital interface...then everything works fine...plays immediadately through either interface , no problem with jumping around in the file.

I think Echo's drivers just aren't that good, to be honest. I had a problem with it from the moment I got it till just recently. It refused to accept incoming data at 88.2 kHz sampling rate. I told them about it and they confirmed the problem....it took many months and a bit of nagging to get them to fix the bug and they finally emailed me a revised driver that works properly.

I have been impressed so far with the overall quality of the M-Audio stuff. I have installed a bunch of their Fast Track Pro's for clients and all have worked flawlessly the first time out and they sound very good too. If simply switching to the M-Audio for my digital recording will fix the problem, I am there!:D

I will also mess with even higher buffer settings with the Gina though.

Thanks Bob

[demodoc]

What's ODD though, is that once SAW has crashed in this situation and then I restart it, I can jump all over the place in the file with no problem. it is only right after making the recording. And, again, I am switching the Gina to internal clock after I am finished recording. Strange, huh?

[Bob L]

I have seen stranger things over the years... some of the problems turned out to be drivers and plugin code... some of the problems turned out to be my code... its an ongoing proces to chase all this stuff down. :)

Bob L