Tuning a Room with EQ

[soundtrack2life]

Dose anyone here tweak their studio monitors with a stereo eq to work in their room? Is this OK . . or just a last resort :confused: ?
TIA
Joe

[Microstudio]

Dose anyone here tweak their studio monitors with a stereo eq to work in their room? Is this OK . . or just a last resort :confused: ?
TIA
Joe


I think it is a good idea to try your best to make the room have the least amount of effect on the sound with in your capability. But it is really more important to train your ears to hear sound in your room.

Train your ears by listening to known CD***8217;s in your room. Listen to the way they sound in your room. In the end you will have to train your ears to the room no matter what.

[TotalSonic]

Trying to correct for a room's response with an eq in nearly every case is a horrible idea due to the fact that you'll cause just as many problems as you'll be "solving" as any cut or boost with an eq often creates additional resonance points at other freq's, and often distortion of the source. An eq also can not adequately correct for room nodes, echoes, and standing waves. A much better idea is to treat your room to correct for anomalies in your room's response instead of putting another processor in your monitoring chain.

A nice article detailing the reasons for the above in a much more eloquent way is at http://www.realtraps.com/eq-traps.htm

If you're looking for inexpensive bass traps but don't have time to DIY them I've found that the stuff from GIK Acoustics is very effective and good bang for buck, and their customer service is top notch.
http://www.gikacoustics.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[sstillwell]

When I was going to training for using Smaart Live (an audio measurement tool often used for live sound systems), I recall one pithy statement:

The only way to "tune" a room is with a sledgehammer.

In other words, you can't change the room's response...it's going to do what it's going to do, given a certain placement of sound sources and organic measurement devices (listeners). you can only change the room itself. EQ-ing will work...kinda...if you can nail your head into space in exactly the spot that the measurements were taken. EXACTLY.

That being said, there are several products on the market for absorbing resonances in a room (physical devices: you're changing the room)...Ethan Winer's Real Traps (mentioned above) are highly spoken of by many, although I can't speak from personal experience... Also read some good comments on ReadyTraps by Ready Acoustics, LLC, or ReadyBags if you're more into the DIY thing...

Hope that this helps...

Scott

[Leadfoot]

all excellent and very true responses so far. you can't change the room with eq, you can affect it but doing so will make things more complicated than they already are. i am constantly battling bad room acoustics in live situations, i have to do it again tonight at a large bar/venue that i work at occasionaly, the system is a permanent install and is quite nice, but the room is absolutely aweful. it's so hard to tell these club owners that all that money they spent on SR and fancy TV's etc, is useless when the room is just a big standing wave reflective loud annoying series of sh** boxes, with nulls, nodes and excited bass frequencies in all the wrong places... "but look at my nice hard tile floor and metal ceilings".. i hate loose flabby low end, and on top of it, so many drummers come in with no hole in the kick head, and no dampening inside.. or worse, they already have a crappy mic mounted inside said drum, and of course his snare drum is louder than dynamite and he has to hit it as hard as he can.. then the bass player has a cheap bass guitar with no definition, so, add all that to the loose room, and all the eq in the world couldn't fix it. so, i know you're talking studio, but it really is similar just on a different scale. my point is, i've seen the extremes of bad room sound, and it really can't be fixed with eq. i'd rather have a totally dead room, than the opposite, if i had a choice.
actually i wish i could put my studio outside :) i have none of those problems at festivals, sucks when it rains tho-

tony

[Bill Park]

Dose anyone here tweak their studio monitors with a stereo eq to work in their room? Is this OK . . or just a last resort :confused: ?
TIA
Joe

Joe,

Besides what has already been said, there is a lot of phase problems associated with eq. Please go to Ethans sites (realtraps.com and ethanwiner.com) and read, read read. I've known Ethan for many years and he has been pushing the value of acoustical treatment long before he ever had a company selling acoustical solutions. I treated my studio with my own modifications of Ethans basic trap designs (with his help) and I bought a RealTraps room kit for my home mixing room. Great stuff.

Bill

[Bill Park]

When I was going to training for using Smaart Live ....

Scott

Did you train with Dr Don?

Bill

[Ian Alexander]

More fuel for the EQ fire. We recently put a new PA system into our church. The installer used a reference mic and an EQ wizard to "tune" the system. I don't know how, but he found one of the worst locations for the mic. The sound may have been good at that precise spot, but everywhere else it was pinched, tinny, nasal, etc. The manual for the processor was written in reverse Japanese for those who already know how it works. We tried to adjust the curve with no luck, but were able to bypass it. Surprise, surprise, flat was SO much better.

More evidence that EQ applies to only one small location in the room. And can make things very audibly worse everywhere else.

[sstillwell]

No...it's been a few years ago...dang, who was it? Jamie? Can't remember. It was here in KC, and all I can remember was Doug Fowler from over at ProSoundWeb.com was there, too. A local rep firm was co-sponsoring the class with SIA (pre-EAW acquisition).

Good grief...the memory's starting to go...yikes.

Scott

[Bill Park]

No...it's been a few years ago...dang, who was it? Jamie? Can't remember. It was here in KC, and all I can remember was Doug Fowler from over at ProSoundWeb.com was there, too. A local rep firm was co-sponsoring the class with SIA (pre-EAW acquisition).

Good grief...the memory's starting to go...yikes.

Scott

Scott,

Yeah, probably Jamie. Good team.

Bill

[Pedro Itriago]

What you could do with an eq is to try fixing your speaker's frequency response (if they need it). Otherwise, no eq for room tuning

[UpTilDawn]

Trying to correct for a room's response with an eq in nearly every case is a horrible idea due to the fact that you'll cause just as many problems as you'll be "solving" as any cut or boost with an eq often creates additional resonance points at other freq's, and often distortion of the source.

Would this also be true of the use of tone shaping dip switches supplied on the back of self-powered monitors?



Originally posted by Pedro: What you could do with an eq is to try fixing your speaker's frequency response (if they need it).

Or would this be more like what Pedro is suggesting, where the dip switches would actually be allowing someone to fix the speaker's frequency response?

DanT

[Mark Stebbeds]

Would this also be true of the use of tone shaping dip switches supplied on the back of self-powered monitors?

Or would this be more like what Pedro is suggesting, where the dip switches would actually be allowing someone to fix the speaker's frequency response?


I think they are more for adjusting your speakers for personal taste than compensating for deficiencies.

I think most of them are simple HF or LF shelving adjustments with a range of a couple of db, and input sensitivity. At least that's the case on my Hafler TRM8, which are set flat.

Mark

[UpTilDawn]

I just dug up and checked the Genelec manual for the nearfields. They claim they are there "to match the acoustic environment".
I always left them flat before (bass and treble tilt and bass roll-off), but recently found it necessary to trim the bass to compensate for the very awkward placement I have been forced to place them in this temporary setting.

I must admit that I've never really understood how I should use them, or if I should avoid using them even... but they must be there for a reason...:confused: :rolleyes:

DanT

[soundtrack2life]

The reason for this post was becasuse I was still trying to get to the bottom of things why my mixes sounded different outside of the room & distorting on with the low end. The middle of last week I went to Radio Shack and pick up a digital SPL meter. I found a free program called Room EQ Wizard http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ that I did some room measurements with. I know this is not the sole answer to my problems however it was a start. With it I was seeing peaks at around 83 khz & around 110 khz. I guess this could explain why my mixes sounded so weak in the low end and then I was adding it blindly to hope my mixes translated better. However that only kept resulting in a distorted low end. I am going to take a hard look at the http://www.gikacoustics.com bass traps. They are sure priced right. I wired in my DBX Driverack Studio http://www.dbxpro.com/discontinued/studio.htm I had it just sitting around out of the studio and intended to be put on eBay. It has a 28 band digital EQ built in along with a RTA Wizard. Well prior to reading the responses here I had picked up the DBX RTA Microphone and "pinked" the room. Well as per what everyone said here it only made things worse!! So I will be returning the microphone and move on. The only good that came out of it was I ran the DBX Driverack out of the "B" mix of my DA7 and the "straight" connection out of the "A" mix. These both went into my Coleman monitor controller. So I can feed my speakers with and without the DBX unit in line. Not that the DBX unit worked to "tune" my enviroment it did brings something to the table. One of its other features is to emulate other playback speakers. ie: computer monitors, telephone, boombox, & subwoofer. I was mainly after the subwoofer emulation to see if that could enable me to here something different. The KRK V4's actually could not reproduce any low end. They only have a freq range of 63 hz to 20k hz. So I put my old Alessis Monitor One's back up next to the KRK's. Even though I don't like to soley mix on them I was able to here the low end better. Plus it responded to the DBX unit. I have come to the conclusion I could never solely mix throught the DBX unit. However it did allow me to hear things that I could not just monitoring with my "A" mix. So now that I heard the problem in the room now I needed to fix it. Last week I purchased the UAD-1 Presision Mastering pack. And yesterday I enabled the plug ins I had not yet purchased for the 14 day demo. I wanted to try something different that what I had been doing. The thing that gave me the sound I was after was I used the new UAD-1 Neve plug in and followed it with the UAD-1 Presision Multiband. Finally that tamed the bass!!! Now I was playing with the Neve (demo) plug in on my guitars. I chose the Pultec & Pultec (Pro) for my Kick, Snare & Vocals. The vocals I used the built in compression and bussed them to an out channel. There I added a UAD-1 LA2A compressor to smooth things a hair more. My biggest discovery was with the SAW comp I had a way to short release time. Once I increased that the vocals sat in the mix awesome. Long story short I have a mix I can now live with. Is it perfect? Heck no. Besides trying to correct my room I have started listening to commercial releases over my system. And keep referencing them through out my mix. I am starting to learn my room and what all these damn buttons do:D I am saving my $$ and decided to buy a better set of monitors & bass traps. Thanks everyone for the help.
Joe

[soundtrack2life]

I have been reading the wealth of information at the http://www.realtraps.com/ site. I have alot going on against the "rules of thumb" ie room size ratios & layout. Of coarse I was limited by physical restrictions I can not change. :(
Joe

[Sean McCoy]

Just to upset the apple cart of conventional wisdom regarding the unforgiveable sin of using EQ on main monitors, I have to report that when I built my new room a few years ago I was very surprised when Chips Davis, a very well-respected and busy Bay-Area studio designer who I hired for the job, firmly recommended EQ on every speaker. This is, of course, a 5.1 room, and Chips said that he, too, had always poo-poo'd using EQ on mains in stereo rooms but had done an about face when he started working on surround rooms with their complex reflections, modal crossings, blah blah...

Unfortunately for me he recommended the very expensive digital Ashly Proteas, which are controlled via software and create no phase issues. After the room was completed he came in with his mobile rig and spent a full day tweaking the EQ's. I'm no golden-eared boy, but it does seem to be working. Guess that's why he gets the big bucks.

[Cary B. Cornett]

What you could do with an eq is to try fixing your speaker's frequency response (if they need it). Otherwise, no eq for room tuning
Some decades ago Ampex sold powered speakers (tube amps until later models), and many, if not most, of these had a compensating network included to correct the response of the driver. Even now there are some who say that speech sounds more natural on these than just about anything else. They do NOT do extreme bass and treble, and are not for LOUD monitoring, but they did show the benefit of correcting for driver response.

That said, without using an anechoic chamber it is damn near impossible to separate speaker response problems from room effects, so this is NOT something that should be attempted by the end user.

[Cary B. Cornett]

I just dug up and checked the Genelec manual for the nearfields. They claim they are there "to match the acoustic environment".
...
I must admit that I've never really understood how I should use them, or if I should avoid using them even... but they must be there for a reason...:confused: :rolleyes:

DanT
Most listening rooms have various sharp peaks and dips in response, especially from the low midrange down to the bass, and these cannot be properly compensated with EQ. OTOH, rooms may also have a more gently sloping response at either end of the spectrum, and for that the "response trim" switches are indeed useful. The gentle and limited nature of these controls limits the amount of "damage" you can do with wrong settings, and by doing some careful listening comparisons with other environments you can usually judge the settings correctly for yourself.

[JKStone]

Thank You Thank You Thank You Ultrasone - Mixing has never been the same.

http://www.ultrasone.com/htdocs/08_frameset/proline_index.php

[UpTilDawn]

Most listening rooms have various sharp peaks and dips in response, especially from the low midrange down to the bass, and these cannot be properly compensated with EQ. OTOH, rooms may also have a more gently sloping response at either end of the spectrum, and for that the "response trim" switches are indeed useful. The gentle and limited nature of these controls limits the amount of "damage" you can do with wrong settings, and by doing some careful listening comparisons with other environments you can usually judge the settings correctly for yourself.
Thanks for the explanation Cary.

[soundtrack2life]

Since I already had my Alesis Monitor Ones still up I thought I'd go another round last night. Anyway it hit me years ago when I was doing all my recording etc, etc I was using the Monitor Ones. A little over a year ago when I purchased the KRK's I just threw the AM1's to the wayside. To be honest the KRK 4v's when I play back commercial CD's do sound much better then the AM1's. However I have come to the realization they are a F$&k!ng nightmare to mix on!! I did a test mix on the AM'1s alone last night and it was ten times more portable and better than what I had done on the KRK's! That said I did not struggle, kick or scream:eek: . My AM1's are powered with a small & old Yamaha PA amp (from the 80's I believe) and they are both very tired! So I decided to take a leap and I purchased the Dynaudio BM6A's today. I know I still have to address the trapping however I feel this would be the best "first step" to recovery:D I did speak with Glenn @ GIK today and his was very helpful. Afterwards I did a goolge search and there is not a ton of info on GIK (compared to other acoustic mfgrs). I am sure this because they are a new company? Anyway they sure are priced right to the point that I would rather not take on a DIY project:rolleyes: . Does anyone know anyone that had ordered from them and how they faired. I have my eye on the Tri Traps. Anyway my gut is telling me the Dynaudios will solve alot of what is going one. Heck I already proved it to myself with the AM1's and I am confident the Dynaudios are a step up from the AM1's. I should have them in a couple days and they after I break them in I will report back. . . .time will tell.
Joe

[soundtrack2life]

I received my Dynaudios today:cool: ! When I got home from work I wired & fired them up. I am aware they recommend a run / break in of about a week. However I figured I load up my edl of the song that I had started with this and another thread. Anyway the mix sounded like crap. For once this was a good thing:rolleyes: . If it sounded like it did on my KRK's & Alessis monitors I knew I was headed for more trouble. So I did a quick mix till it sounded good and burned a CD. I went to the boom box & the car and to my amazement it sounded awesome. Finally my mix translated to other systems well. Not to mention while mixing on the Dyn's I heard a couple of crackles on one guitar track that I never hear on my other speakers. I just cut out the one section and copied in another. A simple fix. Besides solving my mix translation issue I love they way these monitors sound in my studio. Much much easier to mix on than what I had!! I am very happy:D . After months of struggling I can't wait till they are broken in so I can final mix this song and move on! FWIW after I unload a bunch of things on eBay to pay for the BM6a's I am going to by the GIK Tri Traps. Thanks to everyone that has listen to me rant on and offered excellent advice.
Joe

[Pedro Itriago]

Cool. In a week, when your new monitors break, you'll have the same problem again, hehehehe

[soundtrack2life]

That was what I was afraid of :eek: Don't jinx me ;)
Joe

[Naturally Digital]

I'm glad this is coming together for you Joe. Congratulations on your progress!

[Jujuman]

Hey ST2L;

1) Back away from the EQ!!! EQ is NOT your friend!!!!!

2) Pink your speakers for at LEAST a WEEK 24/7 @ audible low level. If you don't your speakers WILL die soon...

3) Listen to your room at diff times while running the pink for your BEFORE ref.

4) Measure your room size with a tape measure and run a room node calc

5) TREAT ROOM as per calc frequencies. Bass traps, etc. Use mirror for 1st reflection points.

6) Pink room again and hear the diff AFTER treatment.

7) Mixes now translate better..........enjoy.


My $.02

Jujuman

[Jay Q]

If you don't your speakers WILL die soon...Michael, can you explain this? Thanks.

Jay

[Craig Allen]

It's a break in period for the suspension of the speakers - it's supposed to loosen then up so they'll travel in a linear motion when producing transients. While I agree breaking in speakers gently at first is a good idea, I've never had any blow that I didn't do.

[TotalSonic]

I know I still have to address the trapping however I feel this would be the best "first step" to recovery:D I did speak with Glenn @ GIK today and his was very helpful. Afterwards I did a goolge search and there is not a ton of info on GIK (compared to other acoustic mfgrs). I am sure this because they are a new company? Anyway they sure are priced right to the point that I would rather not take on a DIY project:rolleyes: . Does anyone know anyone that had ordered from them and how they faired.

Joe -
As noted in another thread - I have 16 GIK 4" traps and 3 of their 2" traps up in my 25' x 14' x 11' room now. I started out with a few of them and just kept adding to get things to where things started sounding "right." Maybe it would have taken less panels to get to the same place if I had gone with a more expensive option like Real Traps - but who knows? - no way to tell with this except a/b'ing between the 2 - and that just wasn't an option I was able to do - and since they did the job I wanted them to do I'm actually pretty darn happy with them.

Anyway - when I first put my B&W N802's up in this room there was a few poky freq's in the low end and a definite hump in the 150-450Hz zone near my listening position. Getting the bass traps up in the room got rid of the great majority of the low mid "congestion" and definitely evened up the bass freq response a lot.

As far as GIK in particular - construction is solid (although indeed something you could DIY if you have time, lots of patience, a little bit of fabric wrapping skill, a table saw, and a bunch of extra space - none of which I have), the panels are incredibly easy to install, their customer services has been excellent (Glenn's a seriously nice guy to talk to, and online orders have been fulfilled exactly and promptly), and their delivery time from Atlanta to NYC has always been with a few days to a week and half at longest.



I have my eye on the Tri Traps.

Yeah - these look pretty cool. They weren't available when I first ordered so I don't have any direct experience with them but they'd probably be excellent for the front corners.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[soundtrack2life]

Steve, Thanks for the feedback. I am most definatly going to purchase the Tri Traps from GIK. . . . . as soon as I pay off the BM6A's, I charged them my credit card and the wifey wasn't as happy as I was when I got them. . . :rolleyes: So I have been unloading a bunch of gear that some friends are buying from me and whatever is left I will put on eBay. After that I should have enough left over for the traps. I am a carpenter by trade and for better or worse I am extremely handy. I know I could build the traps myself. But for what the GIK traps cost it doesn't even pay for me to get itchy:D And yes Glenn was a seriously nice guy to talk to.
Thanks,
Joe