OT: Need some career advice

[Oz Nimbus]

Hey gang, I really need some help with this one....

Basically, I'm 2 years in on an album, working with some clients, that are really nice people, but are the ultimate nit-pickers. Nothing, it seems, is ever good enough to please these guys. ...To the point I was in to see the doctor today as I was vomiting due to the stress of this project. Unfortunatley, I don't see the project finishing anytime soon. I'm ready to cut & run. I got into making records to enjoy myself, not to lose my mind.

The clients have paid me about 4/5ths of what they owe me for studio time. Should I offer them a partial or any refund? Or am I obligated at all?

Any feedback/advice would be greatly appreciated.

-0z-

[Craig Allen]

Unless you have a contract that states an album will be made before you get paid, I wouldn't offer a refund. I would package the work you've done for them to be transportable to another studio so they can 'complete' their work. That's what you're getting paid for at this point - the work you've already completed for them.

[Oz Nimbus]

Makes sense. ..No contract was signed about anything regarding a finished record, so yeah, sounds good. Thanks!

-0z-

[Arco]

If you can't figure out a way to make it work with them (new ground rules?) then let them know now you will be stopping work on the project. Pick a day a week down the road as the big day and let them know you'll have their masters, all the mixes up until now archived, etc.

I think you should get your money. No money no masters..but you may be so sick of it you could split the diff on the last 1/5 you're owed as walk-away-happy money.

Some people are sadistic when it comes to this stuff--I'm all for perfection but if you're feeling it's all on your shoulders then something is way wrong. And 2 years is more than enough time to get a handfull of killer recordings done.

Best of luck.

[Cary B. Cornett]

A lot depends on the nature of your "contract" with them. I put the word in quotes partly because, even if there is no written document, there may be a verbal agreement of some sort that may be legally binding. Even without the "legal" angle, the first question to ask yourself is what actual commitment you made to the client. If you "contracted" to carry the project through to completion, then you need to decide what the value of your personal word is (or should be). Part of this is professional reputation, and part of it is what you see when you look in the mirror.

Most seasoned professional engineers have "client from hell" stories of one kind or another, most commonly about clients with no talent, and often with lots of ego. Sooner or later, every session engineers has his patience tested.

Do these guys demand amazing results without adequate resources, or is it just a matter of going over and over the same old ground to get the best take? Tom Scholz of Boston fame was famous as a perfectionist, but then again he was also the engineer... so he drove the record company crazy. OTOH, the albums he DID complete still hold up pretty well, don't they?

Now, if these guys can actually hear something REAL, just very subtle, you may be getting some paid "ear training" in the process. Have your own perceptions improved in the course of this project?

Now, if your only commitment is one of studio time in exchange for hourly rate, and if they are behind in their bill, you have a ready excuse for pulling the plug, at which point you can then pass along the recordings of the work in progress or hold onto them against the balance due. If these guys are decent, they should be understanding about your stress, and willing to either work out less stressful working arrangements or part company with no hard feelings.

There is also the possibility that your stress is more about your own unmet expectations than the demands of your clients (not being there myself, I cannot say whether this is true, just considering a possibility). If so, adjusting your own expectations may be one way to lower your stress level.

If the work situation is really doing you harm, you may well have to find a way to back out gracefully. You should also consider whether these stresses would possibly happen with a fair number of other clients, so that you can decide whether the answer is just to be more selective about clients you will work with or find some other business and relegate recording to a hobby that you can persue on your own terms.

Not knowing whether anything I have said here is on target at all...

HTH

[Mark Stebbeds]

There must be more to the story than you are telling us if you are getting sick because someone is picky. Are they paying their bill? The best client is the one that keeps coming back with their checkbook.:)

In any case, if you decide you don't want to work with them anymore, and getting them to go away is more important to you than any damage your reputation may suffer, I would still get the money you are owed.

Get them to pay the bill in full before you hand over the work product.

My $.02

Mark

[Pedro Itriago]

Are you working for my brother????:eek:

[Oz Nimbus]

Thanks for all the advice, guys. The particular money agreement: "$35 per hour." That's it. We've gone through several versions of the record, had a couple of re-starts, you name it. The main problem is, they're trying to squeeze a $100,000 record out of a $5000 budget.

The album they want to emulate was done by one of the very best engineers in the genre, and I know for a fact it had a huge budget. ...not to mention a live orchestra behind the band! The band itself can play & play well. But at this point, I've been over the songs so many times it's just turning my brain to mush.

On the other hand, some other projects I've been working on recently have turned out fantastic. One of my clients is showcasing for a major label this Sunday night, based on the record I did. Another full length I'm working is the height of enjoyablility in producing.... I've never had as much fun making a record. So yeah, I still love making records, no question there.



-0z-

[Microstudio]

I am sorry you are getting sick over all this.

I had to edit after you posted.

I will never do a per hours gigs..... never.

I will only do per song and each song is allowed X hours after that it gets exspensive..........no 2 year gig here.

Commuicate with them and let them know what you think.

[Pedro Itriago]

Also, make them a little bit difficult to book time with you, start telling them that you're getting more work and that you'll have to make some scheduling space for those new compromises.

Let them know that they're not your only clients.

Now, if they are your main income...

[Pedro Itriago]

You sure you're not working with my brother??


Thanks for all the advice, guys. The particular money agreement: "$35 per hour." That's it. We've gone through several versions of the record, had a couple of re-starts, you name it. The main problem is, they're trying to squeeze a $100,000 record out of a $5000 budget.

The album they want to emulate was done by one of the very best engineers in the genre, and I know for a fact it had a huge budget. ...not to mention a live orchestra behind the band! The band itself can play & play well. But at this point, I've been over the songs so many times it's just turning my brain to mush.


-0z-

[Oz Nimbus]

No, not your brother. :)

[mikebuzz]

Get a REAL JOB ( just kidding !!) If it's killin YA KILL IT !!! ( besides it will probably sound stale and old by the time it releases anyway ) IMO the best of the best just happens with good work and talent.

LAter
Buzz

PS: but what the hell do I know ????????

[tomasino]

besides it will probably sound stale and old by the time it releases anyway. IMO the best of the best just happens with good work and talent.
Well said man. :cool:
I've always been a huge fan of the first three takes. Even more so with the first three layers in SawStudioLite! I've even used the Layers as a tool to demonstrate that Take #2 and #3 weren't all that different from Take #1 (only less "feel" or less "punch"). It's gettin stale already. Take #4 - time to move on to the next song. Keeps it fresh for everyone involved and progress moving forward.

OZ. Brother, been there and I feel your pain.
These days, I package it up, try to get paid or work out some kind of deal to get the masters into their hands (anything) and then I use this line: (repeat after me)

"maybe someone else can help you take it to the next level. Best of luck to you."

[Mark Stebbeds]

The album they want to emulate was done by one of the very best engineers in the genre, and I know for a fact it had a huge budget. ...not to mention a live orchestra behind the band! The band itself can play & play well. But at this point, I've been over the songs so many times it's just turning my brain to mush.


I think the biggest mistake "new" talent makes is trying to chase perfection, or chasing someone else's sound in the studio.

I worked on a similar project where the guitar player kept wanting to redo his takes because he didn't like the sound, or came up with a new idea for a lick. One time he bought a new guitar and amp and wanted to re-do everything.

It would have been far more productive to focus on new material than beat to death the same tired old songs.

I'm always in favor of giving it your best shot and moving on to new territory.

Good luck.

Mark

[Arco]

I'm always in favor of giving it your best shot and moving on to new territory.
Mark


Amen.

[jfair]

Are you acting as producer for this project?

Maybe it's just the way that I work, but when I use external studios, the studio owner/engineer, just concentrates on that; engineering. If you are the producer as well as owner/engineer, I understand you getting sick. If not this should be made someone else's problem.

In any case, as has been said before, none of this is worth your health... None of it!

Also, in either case, end it.

I recently turned down a project where I was offered to finish an album started by a currently hot rock producer.

At first I was thrilled that this person wanted me to finish such a project, but thankfully I wasn't available for a month. In that month's worth of conversations, I found out how argumentative this person was, and was able to back out of it before I got too involved. And probably found the reason said producer had "disappeared" on them!!

Just remember they NEED you, you don't NEED them. From what you say, you've succesfully produced for other clients, and life WILL go on without them.

jfair

[Perry]

Hey gang, I really need some help with this one....

Basically, I'm 2 years in on an album, working with some clients, that are really nice people, but are the ultimate nit-pickers. Nothing, it seems, is ever good enough to please these guys. ...To the point I was in to see the doctor today as I was vomiting due to the stress of this project. Unfortunatley, I don't see the project finishing anytime soon. I'm ready to cut & run. I got into making records to enjoy myself, not to lose my mind.

The clients have paid me about 4/5ths of what they owe me for studio time. Should I offer them a partial or any refund? Or am I obligated at all?

Any feedback/advice would be greatly appreciated.

-0z-

For what it's worth... stress is really never caused by work, it's caused by the people you are working with, or around. People provide stress.. not work.

WIth that in mind... if this project is really the source of you being sick.. and it sounds as if it is... there is definitely a far less than ideal situation here. In my opinon, the only way to deal with this sort of situation is either to "handle" it (fix it somehow so that the "stressful" part, the person or persons providing the stress, are dealt with) ... Or you disconnect from the situation. Disconnect would have to be total to be effective. This means no further contact. You're done, it's over! You do whatever it takes to terminate this connection and everyone parts ways.

If you've delievered what you've promised for the work that has been done and the money received, it would seem that you should owe nothing as far as a refund.... but this might be negotiable. You might offer to provide them with files so that they could go elsewhere and continue to work. BUT.. I wouldn't go overboard offering the money you've earned just to extradite yourself from the situation.

FWIW.. I have, on very rare occassions, pulled out of working situations were it became obvious that it simply wasn't going to fly and it'd be best for everyone concerned if we simply parted company. I didn't particularly like doing it... but in hindsight it WAS the best option and the correct thing to do and I've never regreted taking such an action if it was truly necessary..

One other thing I would suggest.. if possible... immediatley remove yourself from this situation for a few days at least (leave town "on business".. or temporarily close down for equipment repairs, or whatever), so that you can step back from things and take a more "external" viewpoint.

Once you've done that, then trust your own instincts as to what is right and then follow through with it... what ever it is.

Whatever you do... let it be effective. Either fix things so that they stay fixed (work out a new agreement or whatever could work to accomplish this).. or end this completely, then take a break and go for a walk in the park or go fishing, or whatever works for you..... until you feel better. Then get on with your life and try to work things out so that you can avoid these kinds of situations happening again.

All the best,

Perry

[MMP]

Life is way too short to hate what you are doing. Make the change and get happy & healthy.

Regards,

MM

[Naturally Digital]

Just want to chime in and say "Good luck" Oz. I hope you're feeling better! There's lots of good advice here and it's pretty clear what needs to be done. I'm sure it feels good just to voice it here... We feel for ya man.

[Pedro Itriago]

Then...can I send him your way? :D :D

[Leadfoot]

judging by your character, i'm sure you've gone above and beyond what any average person would do for them. if they don't understand that, you need to get away from them as fast as you can. they will just continue to use and abuse you there is no easy or nice way to do it, you don't have 2 more seconds of your life to waste being sick over them. although it gives me some comfort to know i'm not the only person crazy enough to go thru this insanity for poeple.

tony

[Oz Nimbus]

Thanks for all the advice, guys. You've definitley helped me make my choice.

-0z-

[Oz Nimbus]

Then...can I send him your way? :D :D


...I think I'd rather have my fingernails removed with pliers.

[Mark Stebbeds]

Thanks for all the advice, guys. You've definitley helped me make my choice.



Are you going to record everything over again?:)

Mark

[Pedro Itriago]

Are you going to record everything over again?:)

Mark

Yes, because he read the thread about bit depth & sample rate and he bought into it

[Mark Stebbeds]

Yes, because he read the thread about bit depth & sample rate and he bought into it
:D

[Perry]

I was seriously thinking about starting a thread about using iLoks for pacemakers..... but i won't.:D

Why not? Sounds like a great idea!!! :D :rolleyes:

Perry