Unexpected Video Issue - Help Please(long)

[Carlos Mills]

Hi All,

Here we go:
I have this live show recording (DVD) that I need to pick just two songs and make a small video clip from.
I managed to extract the video from the DVD to an AVI file (throw Auto Gordian Knot), extracted the audio that was not very good, "fixed it" and "lip synked it" with SAWStudio. Both the audio and the video played ok in the Multitrack Window and the Video Track Viewer in SS.
But to my surprise, when I try to "Render Session to DV...", either type 1 or type 2, all I get is a 64kB file, no matter how long the session is.
this is what I've done so far to try to fix it:
* installed all codecs from the codec collection;
* tried all combinations of PAL, NTSC, DV Type 1 and DV Type 2 options.
SS behaves as it was "rendering"; the status bar goes all the way to 100%, but all AVI files end up with 64 kB in size, no matter the length of the session.
I need this AVI files rendered, so I can forward the material to a friend of mine who is going to finish it up and put back in the regular DVD format. I hope this explanation is clear enough. Thanks in advance for any help.

[Bob L]

Sometimes the DirectShow protocol (which the viewer uses) goes crazy at the last frame if something isn't quite exact... not sure exactly what that is... and the avi file never gets the proper final header stamps at the time of file closing...

Try this... mark the begin and end exactly to frame boundary grid... and build the render that way... rather than building the whole thing un-marked... I have seen that solve some of these issues.

This helps force the render length to exact frame boundaries... usually zero to some exact frame count... if the original length has extra audio that pushes you slightly past a frame, sometimes the DirectShow api seems to get confused whe it closes out the file...

Hopefully this may fix the problem.

Bob L

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your quick reply.
I am almost sure I've already tried this... right now I am home, so I can't try it... but I think there is indeed extra audio beyond the last frame... I will double check this...



Try this... mark the begin and end exactly to frame boundary grid... and build the render that way... rather than building the whole thing un-marked... I have seen that solve some of these issues.
This helps force the render length to exact frame boundaries... usually zero to some exact frame count... if the original length has extra audio that pushes you slightly past a frame, sometimes the DirectShow api seems to get confused whe it closes out the file...
Hopefully this may fix the problem.
Bob L

[razor]

Hi All,
But to my surprise, when I try to "Render Session to DV...", either type 1 or type 2, all I get is a 64kB file, no matter how long the session is.


Hi Carlos

I had this problem that when I had a 24 bit edl.

Try setting the edl resolution to 16 bit.

Cheers

Phil

[Carlos Mills]

Hi razor,

Thanks for your input, but EDL is already in 16 bits...


Hi Carlos
I had this problem that when I had a 24 bit edl.
Try setting the edl resolution to 16 bit.
Cheers
Phil

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Bob,

Unfortunately marking the begin and end (using grid mode) exactly to frame boundaries, and keeping all the audio inside the marked area, didn`t do the trick. I keep having 64 kB AVI files, no matter the size of the session. Any other ideas? :confused:



Sometimes the DirectShow protocol (which the viewer uses) goes crazy at the last frame if something isn't quite exact... not sure exactly what that is... and the avi file never gets the proper final header stamps at the time of file closing...
Try this... mark the begin and end exactly to frame boundary grid... and build the render that way... rather than building the whole thing un-marked... I have seen that solve some of these issues.
This helps force the render length to exact frame boundaries... usually zero to some exact frame count... if the original length has extra audio that pushes you slightly past a frame, sometimes the DirectShow api seems to get confused whe it closes out the file...
Hopefully this may fix the problem.
Bob L

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Bob,

Here I am again. I finally made it, but I wasn't able to detect exactly what the problem was. I changed computers, I cleared all plug ins and left only the audio, I changed ELD preferences... I did all at once, so I can't tell exactly what the culprit was; but the good news are that I made it! :)

All the best,

[Bob L]

Plugins... perhaps there were latency plugins that were cusing all kinds of MT loops and that was confusing the video frame advance of the video... who knows....

I was going to suggest that you do an audio mix to a stereo file first... then drop that under the video with no more plugin processing... and then render... that works most times when other things fail.

Bob L

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Bob,
This is what I did. Thanks! ;)



I was going to suggest that you do an audio mix to a stereo file first... then drop that under the video with no more plugin processing... and then render... that works most times when other things fail.
Bob L

[Carlos Mills]

Hey Bob,

It seems this strange behavior is showing it's ugly face again (please read below...)


Hi All,
I managed to extract the video from the DVD to an AVI file, extracted the audio, "fixed it" and "lip synked it" with SAWStudio. Both the audio and the video played ok in the Multitrack Window and the Video Track Viewer in SS and in Windows Media Player.
But when I try to "Render Session to DV...", either type 1 or type 2, all I get is a 64kB file or a 128kB, no matter how long the session is.
this is what I've done so far to try to fix it:
* installed all codecs from the codec collection;
* tried all combinations of PAL, NTSC, DV Type 1 and DV Type 2 options.
SS behaves as it was "rendering"; the status bar goes all the way to 100%, kind of fast, but all AVI files end up with 64 kB in size, no matter the length of the session. (the images do not appear in the video viewer window while rendering).

I already installed this new video codecs (http://www.xpcodecpack.com/); tried to use the VOB video files directly (changing the extension to AVI); changed computers... nothing seems to fix this behavior... any insights?
p.s. I am not using any plug ins right now.

[Bob L]

VOB files are tricky... sometimes you can extract them into avi DV format inside the viewer... sometimes not.

Changing the extension to avi is not correct... they are actually mpeg2 compression.

You may need to use a program like Video Cleaner to convert them. You cannot place a VOB directly on the timeline... they will not seek properly.

Bob L

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the quick response! I've changed computers, used an AVI file (converted from the VOB file) and SS rendered it.
Nevertheless, the aspect ratio is being changed from 16:9 (original ratio) to 4:3 (after rendering people are getting streched). Any tips?
BTW: Happy new year to you, Jeanne and All.

All the best,


VOB files are tricky... sometimes you can extract them into avi DV format inside the viewer... sometimes not.

Changing the extension to avi is not correct... they are actually mpeg2 compression.

You may need to use a program like Video Cleaner to convert them. You cannot place a VOB directly on the timeline... they will not seek properly.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the quick response! I've changed computers, used an AVI file (converted from the VOB file) and SS rendered it.
Nevertheless, the aspect ratio is being changed from 16:9 (original ratio) to 4:3 (after rendering people are getting streched). Any tips?
BTW: Happy new year to you, Jeanne and All.

All the best,

Is the aspect ratio changing when converting to AVI? In what program are you doing that conversion?

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Dave,


Is the aspect ratio changing when converting to AVI? In what program are you doing that conversion?

This is what I am doing: I open an AVI file (16:9) in SS's Video Viewer and insert it in the MultiTrack; Then, I tweek the audio and generate a new AVI file (with better audio, still 16:9) in SAWStudio. SS is not maintaining the same aspect ratio of the original file after rendering it to the new audio-edited file, although it shows the correct aspect ratio when playing the original file.
Thanks for asking.

All the best,

[Bob L]

I'll have to look into the rendering settings in the viewer... I never did anything specific to specify an aspect... perhaps the 16:9 needs to be specified with some parameter in my code.

I just assumed the video was being left alone in its rendering, since I am simply opening the DV file and rewriting it without reconversion... as far as I knew, the format was not being altered.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Not sure if this is on-target or helpful, but I just drag the Video Viewer out to the correct aspect ratio whenever something gets changed to 4:3 in error. I guess it's more of a work-around than a fix (duh), but because I'm rarely responsible for outputting final video, it's never been any more of a thought for me than that.

I actually created a widescreen F-key View file for the wider Video Viewer. So, I'm happy as long as I don't have to leave SAW with that video. ;)

[DominicPerry]

I asked about this recently. WMP get the change of aspect ratio correct, Nero Showtime does not, SAW does not, but if you edit and export the video from SAW, the final file is fine. Not very impressive to anyone looking over your shoulder though, especially if they are trying to dub on VO.

Dominic

[Dave Labrecque]

I asked about this recently. WMP get the change of aspect ratio correct, Nero Showtime does not, SAW does not, but if you edit and export the video from SAW, the final file is fine. Not very impressive to anyone looking over your shoulder though, especially if they are trying to dub on VO.

Dominic

Dom,

When you say the final file is fine out of SAW, what do you mean (vs. "SAW does not")?

[DominicPerry]

Exporting the final edit from SAW produces a file at the correct aspect ratio - the underlying file is unchanged and the final exported edit will show at the proper aspect ratio in Windows Media Player..........but.......

SAW does not display the correct aspect ratio during editing.

Dominic

[Dave Labrecque]

Exporting the final edit from SAW produces a file at the correct aspect ratio - the underlying file is unchanged and the final exported edit will show at the proper aspect ratio in Windows Media Player..........but.......

SAW does not display the correct aspect ratio during editing.

Dominic

Ah... that's an easy fix: stretch the Viewer horizontally. :)

I think the Viewer likes to open to whatever dimensions you last had it at (or maybe it's from the last time you Saved Preferences). Not sure it cares about the aspect ratio of the video it's showing you, though. ;) That said, it's very "flexible". :)

[DominicPerry]

I think it should do it for you. Or the choice should be there. I don't want to have to set by eye the ratio for a clip and then change the viewer size every time the ratio changes. It's not the end of the world but it seems a bit unnecessary.

Dominic

[Dave Labrecque]

I think it should do it for you. Or the choice should be there. I don't want to have to set by eye the ratio for a clip and then change the viewer size every time the ratio changes. It's not the end of the world but it seems a bit unnecessary.

Dominic

I agree completely. Just giving you a quick-fix till Bob takes a look. :)

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Dominic,

Thanks for getting in the thread. :)


I think it should do it for you. Or the choice should be there. I don't want to have to set by eye the ratio for a clip and then change the viewer size every time the ratio changes. It's not the end of the world but it seems a bit unnecessary.
Dominic

I think SS has a fix for this one: Video Viewer / Blue Pyramid / Zoom / Actual Size. See if it works for you.

Bob,

I made some more accurate research on the topic: Auto Gordian Knot (the program I am using to convert the *.VOB file into the *.AVI file) is changing the resolution (!) from 780 x 480 to 780 x 416 (or maybe this is the original native resolution for this video?).
Anyway, when I play the video in SS, it shows everything in the right proportion (at 780 x 416), but when I render, the final file is stretched (upwards). I guess maybe SS (or something else in the process) is trying "fix" the difference in the height of the file? Strangeness of the video world... :eek:

[Bob L]

If my final file is fine, then as I thought... I am not reconverting or altering the file format... simply use the actual size in my zoom menu to display the file at the actual size and aspect.

The zoom menu gives you some fixed standard sizes and then the actual size as an automatic... select that option... then you are free to stretch it beyond that if desired... all in all, I'd say its just about as flexible as you can get. :)

Bob L

[sebastiandybing]

Hi Carlos

In the long run, you will need a video program...just a lite version.
It will save you lots of time:p .

Sebastian

[DominicPerry]

Actual Size doesn't work on a file that starts in one aspect ratio and then changes to another - e.g. starts at 16:9 and then changes to 4:3. You might very well ask why that should happen, but in my case, it has. WMP follows the change - it alters the aspect ratio seamlessly on playback, SAW viewer does not. It would be nice if it did, that's all. I'll probably survive if it doesn't. ;) :D

Dominic

[Bob L]

I would imagine having the viewer change size on the fly on the timeline to be a very undesirable effect... it actually makes no real sense to me... straighten out the video clips to all be the same size... after all...; the idea of video on a timeline is that they all belong to a finished single project that will need to render into one finished format and size.

The video viewer is not designjed as a standalone video player... it is designed so you can do serious audio sound design work on a finished video project.

Bob L

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Bob,



The video viewer is not designjed as a standalone video player... it is designed so you can do serious audio sound design work on a finished video project.
Bob L

This is the way I am trying to work. But unfortunately the rendered final file is coming out different from what you see in the original file.
Although the Video Viewer shows everything in the right proportion during playback, after rendering it (with the tweaked audio) the final file is coming out of proportion. :confused:

p.s. I am copying below a thread that maybe you did not see:

"Bob,

I made some more accurate research on the topic: Auto Gordian Knot (the program I am using to convert the *.VOB file into the *.AVI file) is changing the resolution (!) from 780 x 480 to 780 x 416.
Anyway, when I play the video in SS, it shows everything in the right proportion (at 780 x 416), but when I render, the final file is stretched (upwards). I guess maybe SS (or something else in the process) is trying "fix" the difference in the height of the file? Strangeness of the video world..."

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Dave

Maybe it is a good idea to start another thread regarding the problem you are discussing below.
I am trying to deal with another problem - related to the rendered files - and I think the issue is rather confusing (at least for me) for us to start another subject... wouldn't you agree? I appreciate your understanding.


Bob,
Is there a way to increase the Viewer's size without changing the aspect ratio? I seem to get inconsistent results dragging the various borders and corners. For example, when dragging a corner or border, whether or not both borders move seems dependent on the speed of the drag. Kinda confusing.
Perhaps a modifier-key-corner-drag (like in graphics or publishing programs) could be coded to guarantee an aspect ratio lock?

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Sebastian,

Yes, sooner or later I will have to do it... I hope later, so I would buy "The Video Wokshop Add On" :)

All the best,


Hi Carlos

In the long run, you will need a video program...just a lite version.
It will save you lots of time:p .

Sebastian

[Dave Labrecque]

Hi Dave

Maybe it is a good idea to start another thread regarding the problem you are discussing below.
I am trying to deal with another problem - related to the rendered files - and I think the issue is rather confusing (at least for me) for us to start another subject... wouldn't you agree? I appreciate your understanding.

Sorry, Carlos. I'm on it...

Good luck with your issue. :)

[Bob L]

Carlos,

I am guessing that the DirectShow DV codecs are forcing the render to NTSC spec at 720 x 480... that is out of my hands... I am simply passing the data back thru the DV codec.

Not sure why the size was altered in the first conversion.

I have only allowed the render to go back directly thru the DV codec... many reasons for that decision, especially when trying to use firewire render options and so forth... it gets messy in vodeo codec world.

From everything I have seen, you will most likely be forced to set a size in most any video editing environment for the final render... perhaps you can use Vegas Video or another to do the final render where you may be able to force the render size since each frame is being handled internally and re-converted in most editor tiemlines...

Bob L

[Carlos Mills]

Thanks for your reply Bob,

Right now I am trying to make AutoGK to keep the original 720 x 480 resolution when converting from *.VOB to *.AVI... I will keep you posted.

All the best,

[Carlos Mills]

Hi Bob and All,

I ended up getting an AVI file (720 x 480) from the "Video Guy" and finished up the job from there.
BTW, the video was just uploaded to YouTube. It's an upward Bossa Nova song that could also be filed under "Samba". You can watch it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qn7omEikqo

All the best,


Thanks for your reply Bob,

Right now I am trying to make AutoGK to keep the original 720 x 480 resolution when converting from *.VOB to *.AVI... I will keep you posted.

All the best,

[Carlos Mills]

Oh Yes,

Recorded (Live) and mixed (Surround) with SAWStudio!
Listen to it here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qn7omEikqo) :)


Hi Bob and All,
BTW, the video was just uploaded to YouTube. It's an upward Bossa Nova song that could also be filed under "Samba". You can watch it here:
All the best,